Trump Zelensky today.....

[DANC]

I know we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things politically, but I really appreciate the perspective you bring to the various Russia-Ukraine threads.

There is no other empire in the history of the world that has avoided war more than the US. That doesn't mean we don't allow ourselves to get drawn into some bad situations, but the American people innately side with the righteous, if they know all the facts.

To paraphrase Churchhill, Americans will do the right thing after exhausting all other possiblities. I am hoping Trump follows that path.

 

[DANC]

Should be a fascinating listen. Reporter embedded with Russian forces since the beginning of the war. Always good to hear both sides.

View embedded media

There's a reason he's the only one....

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Russia is still demanding Ukraine leave entirely the 4 Oblasts. So Ukraine has to formally give up Crimea, and give up land they still own.

MSN

The four Oblasts voted a Russian majority in the Referendum. Russian law requires they control all four. Not a negotiation point and in the long run, the civil structure stays more intact if older, existing boundaries can be approximated and administrators are retained under a unifying government.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

There has not been a firm security guarantee, and it would largely be a worthless promise anyway.

I tend to agree. The best security guarantee must be a commercial arrangement that will be contrary to everyone’s interests to allow this again.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You have been critical of Z in this, yet again, where has the Vlad the Impaler agreed to the deal?

Irrelevant. If nothing changes, in two years Russia will essentially be as it is now, including being Europe’s energy supplier. Ukraine will be toast.

Do you have specifics on security guarantees?

No.

Rebuilding?

No.

The only way Z can get what he wants on those two issues is to negotiate.

Yes.

I am thinking you have never been a land for peace guy in the middle east.

I’m irrelevant. This thing is not like the other thing.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Irrelevant. If nothing changes, in two years Russia will essentially be as it is now, including being Europe’s energy supplier. Ukraine will be toast.


No.


No.


Yes.


I’m irrelevant. This thing is not like the other thing.

It is relevant because telling a bully you will give him what he wants for peace seldom works. He knows he can come back for more.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Ukraine HAS to have security for whatever is left, that is non-negotiable. Full stop.

That makes no sense. What nation would agree to do this?

You assume that Ukraine is, or will be, full functioning western-style democracy with a robust economy. I don’t think that is possible, at least not possible for years.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

That makes no sense. What nation would agree to do this?

What nation would agree to terms that have it giving up land without any assurances that war won't resume?

You assume that Ukraine is, or will be, full functioning western-style democracy with a robust economy. I don’t think that is possible, at least not possible for years.

Probably not as long as Russia is invading it

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It is relevant because telling a bully you will give him what he wants for peace seldom works. He knows he can come back for more.

That doesn address what you said or what I said. The point is z won’t negotiate. He must. Or the Ukrainians need to shit can him and save what is left of their country.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

That doesn address what you said or what I said. The point is z won’t negotiate. He must. Or the Ukrainians need to shit can him and save what is left of their country.

WHere is it said he isn't negotiating? He's making public comments about Crimea, that isn't the same as not negotiating.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Baris is 100% correct.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

The point is z won’t negotiate.

Have you started visiting the same sites as Mas?

 

[IUINSB]

He's been a Russian puppet since before 2014. He's a con man, a bullshit artist and a traitor. Take a listen, don't cost nothing. He can barely speak out his lies without stuttering and sputtering.

Which one, Lancaster or Carlson?

 

[Spartans9312]

 

[DANC]

Baris is 100% correct.

View embedded media

Not this bullshit again. NATO never agreed not to expand eastward and Russia didn't bat an eye when the Baltic states were admitted into NATO. Last I looked, they are on their western border.

Just stop the bullshit with Russia worrying about NATO on their border. They were already on their border and no one was the worse for it.

Geezus, I get so sick of these easily disproved arguments.

This is a land grab by Russia because they weren't stopped when they took over Crimea. They thought they could roll into the rest of Ukraine unoppposed and got their ass kicked out of Kiev and now they're making every excuse they can for hanging on.

This blame the victim mentality is nothing but a sellout. The West is, in no way, responsible for Russia's bad behavior.

You guys talk about Zelensky like HItler used to talk about Churchill being a war monger and fighting a lost cause. Zelensky is a ****ing hero and a genuine leader.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Not this bullshit again. NATO never agreed not to expand eastward and Russia didn't bat an eye when the Baltic states were admitted into NATO. Last I looked, they are on their western border.

Just stop the bullshit with Russia worrying about NATO on their border. They were already on their border and no one was the worse for it.

Geezus, I get so sick of these easily disproved arguments.

This is a land grab by Russia because they weren't stopped when they took over Crimea. They thought they could roll into the rest of Ukraine unoppposed and got their ass kicked out of Kiev and now they're making every excuse they can for hanging on.

This blame the victim mentality is nothing but a sellout. The West is, in no way, responsible for Russia's bad behavior.

You guys talk about Zelensky like HItler used to talk about Churchill being a war monger and fighting a lost cause. Zelensky is a ****ing hero and a genuine leader.

"Zelensky is a ****ing hero and a genuine leader"...

Wew! Lad!

 

[IUINSB]

That makes no sense. What nation would agree to do this?

You assume that Ukraine is, or will be, full functioning western-style democracy with a robust economy. I don’t think that is possible, at least not possible for years.

And that is Russia's doing. give Putin what he wants and Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, among others can wave bye-bye.

 

[DANC]

"Zelensky is a ****ing hero and a genuine leader"...

Wew! Lad!

I didn't really expect you to agree. lol

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

That doesn address what you said or what I said. The point is z won’t negotiate. He must. Or the Ukrainians need to shit can him and save what is left of their country.

Care to show us what Putin has negotiated other than saying it is his way or nothing?

 

[IUINSB]

Got it. No blood on our hands. You sound like warmongers Cheney and Wolfowitz.

You and Mas sound like Neville Chamberlain.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Not this bullshit again. NATO never agreed not to expand eastward and Russia didn't bat an eye when the Baltic states were admitted into NATO. Last I looked, they are on their western border.

Just stop the bullshit with Russia worrying about NATO on their border. They were already on their border and no one was the worse for it.

Geezus, I get so sick of these easily disproved arguments.

This is a land grab by Russia because they weren't stopped when they took over Crimea. They thought they could roll into the rest of Ukraine unoppposed and got their ass kicked out of Kiev and now they're making every excuse they can for hanging on.

This blame the victim mentality is nothing but a sellout. The West is, in no way, responsible for Russia's bad behavior.

You guys talk about Zelensky like HItler used to talk about Churchill being a war monger and fighting a lost cause. Zelensky is a ****ing hero and a genuine leader.

Obama and Biden made a number of mistakes to bring us where we are. All that is irrelevant.the present situation is that Ukraine is in a very precarious position through actions of Russia, the United States and Ukraine itself. I think we can only solve that by not dwelling on bullies and fault but looking at the best way forward.

 

[DANC]

Obama and Biden made a number of mistakes to bring us where we are. All that is irrelevant.the present situation is that Ukraine is in a very precarious position through actions of Russia, the United States and Ukraine itself. I think we can only solve that by not dwelling on bullies and fault but looking at the best way forward.

I disagree. It all depends on who is responsible.

If someone breaks into your house, do you just worry about going forward or would you want the perp identified and brought to justice?

 

[ribbont]

Great post--and insightful. History does not end for Vladimir Putin, which is to say, he wants what history was, a Russian Empire. Read any meaningful scholar or biography of Putin, and read Putin's lamentations on the end of the cold war and the Soviet Union. Ukraine won't be the end--it can't be. The indifference to Russian aggression is capitulation.

Why make strange bedfellows with a guy who has ramped up his disinformation flood in the United States to such insane levels is beyond me.

Your are right --we don't necessarily want to be the world's policeman, but the economic intertwinement with the world makes it such that consequences force the US to take sides against rampant aggression. I am sure some will call this view the "globalists making America inferior" stuff, but a globalist, at his or her core is just accepting the reality that the free market demands efficiencies.

You and Mas sound like Neville Chamberlain.

So, do either of you have a solution? Or just keep doing the same thing for another 3, 7, 10 yrs? Because the only plan I saw from Biden and the Dems was to just keep sending money to Ukraine for a war they cannot win. What happens when there are no more Ukrainian fighters?

 

[BradStevens]

It is relevant because telling a bully you will give him what he wants for peace seldom works. He knows he can come back for more.

I think a lot of your criticisms on this topic should be directed at Obama and the Western leaders in 2014, too.

The Long, Destructive Shadow of Obama’s Russia Doctrine

A series of bad decisions during the Obama years prepared the ground for Vladimir Putin’s war.

foreignpolicy.com

In 2014, after Russia had already annexed Crimea, shot down MH17, and sent Russian troops and security services into combat in Ukraine’s Donbas, Obama staunchly opposed sending arms to Ukraine. He responded to the Russian invasion of Crimea with only minor sanctions targeting Russian individuals, state banks, and a handful of companies. He rejected a leading U.S. role in diplomatic efforts to end Russia’s war, delegating responsibility to France and Germany. While it makes logical sense to expect European countries to take charge of security on their continent, these countries lack the United States’ geopolitical heft, and Putin has never accepted them as peers of or negotiating partners for Russia. What’s more, these two European countries were heavily dependent on trade with Russia and showed little interest in the security of Eastern European countries. Most damaging was Obama’s clear statement that Ukraine was not a U.S. strategic priority.

Speaking with the Atlantic’s Jeffrey Goldberg after Russia’s annexation of Crimea and aggression in the Donbas, Obama emphasized the limits of his commitment to Ukraine. As Goldberg wrote: “Obama’s theory here is simple: Ukraine is a core Russian interest but not an American one, so Russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there.” Goldberg then cited Obama as saying, “The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do.” In other words, a U.S. president all but acknowledged Ukraine as a Russian client state, telegraphing to the leader of an aggressive, revisionist power that the United States would stand down if Russia were to widen its war. Moreover, the doctrine of Russian escalation dominance—that the Kremlin would always be willing to exercise superior power to get its way in Ukraine, whereas the United States would not—became the governing principle of U.S. policy. This principle echoes to this day, holding back U.S. support for Ukraine.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Soon.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Obama and Biden made a number of mistakes to bring us where we are. All that is irrelevant.the present situation is that Ukraine is in a very precarious position through actions of Russia, the United States and Ukraine itself. I think we can only solve that by not dwelling on bullies and fault but looking at the best way forward.

We will see what security guarantees are in the final treaty. My best guess, vague crap. Just a pause for Russia to rebuild and take another bite at the apple.

Dan compared it to someone breaking into your house. I agree with him, would you just say, "never mind the past, what is the best way forward"? Russia broke into Ukraine's home.

No, we aren't going to commit to get Russia out of where they are but we need to make it clear there will not be another bite at the apple. Strong security guarantees, and keep the sanctions on Russia to slow rearming.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Have you started visiting the same sites as Mas?

Unfortunately, it seems so.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

"Zelensky is a ****ing hero and a genuine leader"...

Wew! Lad!

He is, and you’re a Russian tool. What happened to you?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

We will see what security guarantees are in the final treaty. My best guess, vague crap. Just a pause for Russia to rebuild and take another bite at the apple.

Dan compared it to someone breaking into your house. I agree with him, would you just say, "never mind the past, what is the best way forward"? Russia broke into Ukraine's home.

No, we aren't going to commit to get Russia out of where they are but we need to make it clear there will not be another bite at the apple. Strong security guarantees, and keep the sanctions on Russia to slow rearming.

There is no such thing as a strong security guarantee. Nor should there be. If performance is required, it should be a game time decision.

Mutual aid agreements are a different matter, like NATO’s Article V. The problem there is our NATO partners have deliberately made their performance questionable.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I disagree. It all depends on who is responsible.

If someone breaks into your house, do you just worry about going forward or would you want the perp identified and brought to justice?

If somebody is in my house and I want them gone, it makes no difference how they got in.

 

[dbmhoosier]

But where are the Epstein files?

A suicide.

 

[BradStevens]

A suicide.

View embedded media

Sad.

Survivors of sexual abuse are much more likely to exhibit suicidal behaviors than those who have not experienced same.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Sad.

Survivors of sexual abuse are much more likely to exhibit suicidal behaviors than those who have not experienced same.

So you are in the camp that Epstein actually raped her and she couldn't handle it any more. Yet Not in the camp that she was off'd, after being a victim of Epstein and many other very powerful sexual deviants. Do I have that correct?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

So you are in the camp that Epstein actually raped her and she couldn't handle it any more. Yet Not in the camp that she was off'd, after being a victim of Epstein and many other very powerful sexual deviants. Do I have that correct?

What? Do you think the President had her killed?

 

[Mark Milton]

So you are in the camp that Epstein actually raped her and she couldn't handle it any more. Yet Not in the camp that she was off'd, after being a victim of Epstein and many other very powerful sexual deviants. Do I have that correct?

if they wanted her dead, she could have been killed 20 years ago. The simplest answer to all this is that once her name got out there, her life was now twice ruined. In this day and age, how many lunatics found out where she lived and bothered her? Regardless, a woman died who was ****ed for life by some rotten people

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

Crimea isn't the only thing holding up the end. Has Putin accepted it, can you show anywhere that Putin has agreed to the plan? The plan which allows Russia to take more than they occupy? The plan that has vague security guarantees? Look how valuable the last security guarantee we gave them has turned out to be, and we actually signed that one. If reports are right, we aren't a part of the new guarantee. We say money will pay for rebuilding Ukraine, by whom and how much? It appears, not in the agreement. But it is that we will lift sanctions on Russia.

You hated on Z, where has Putin agreed to anything? Why not hate on him?

Our minerals deal in the security guarantee. If we can get J.K. And French peacekeeping forces in there as well great, but they’re not exactly imposing anyway.

Plus Trump has maintained that Ukraine gets to keep a standing army as a non-negotiable.
They won’t join NATO. NATO already needs a culling.

 

[Mark Milton]

So, do either of you have a solution? Or just keep doing the same thing for another 3, 7, 10 yrs? Because the only plan I saw from Biden and the Dems was to just keep sending money to Ukraine for a war they cannot win. What happens when there are no more Ukrainian fighters?

Sorry--missed your note last night--I was riveted to the NFL draft enjoying the Sanders draft stock drop now into the 4th round.

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Europe and the United States made several mistakes: (1) The Russian invasion of Chechnya (after its agreed upon independence). This was the admitted false flag operation where Putin's operatives bombed an apartment in Russia to justify an invasion; (2) Invasion of Georgia; (3) 2003-2013 russian murder attempts of non-russian puppets in the Ukraine; and (4) Russian Crimea invasion in 2014. They were mistakes because the United States and Europe did nothing.

The security agreement that the UK, Russia and the US signed (maybe France was on there too--don't recall), in exchange or the Ukraine giving up its nukes was and is a useless agreement. A side note--any country that gives up nukes or stops developing nukes, would be hard pressed to give up those weapons.

Today, the Ukraine has reclaimed a sizeable amount of the land that the Russian's captured at the start of the war. That is not unimpressive. Russia's advance has been stalled for the most part, relying exclusively on long range missiles and drones. 3 on, the Russians aren't where they wanted to be. That is the only leverage the Ukraine has at the moment under the current US administration. Europe's continued contributions to the war effort have increased, but most of their military equipment isn't as good as our to be decomissioned weapon systems/tanks/armored vehicles that constitute 75% of what we have provided to the Ukraine. I would point out that US Military was spot on when they told the Ukranians that planes weren't going to make a difference because of all the anti-aircraft systems the russians moved in. And for similarly reasons, that is why you aren't seeing Russian planes either.

If I was the current president in this situation, and the only goal was to stop the war I would do the following:

1. stop tweeting about it;
2. stop publically taking sides;
3. have serious conversations with congress in a private setting to encourage them not to buy into the russian disinformation and just be quiet for a period of time.

Russia looks at us now as if we are backing the Putin regime, and we know this because they talk about it on Russian TV, etc, We also know this because of goofy comments from president about going into business with Russia, developing land with Russia, blah blah.

4. Go to Europe--the war isn't going to end unless Europe is involved. Put together a joint plan where you convey to the russians that Europe and US will permit some of the following for Russia: (1) some land; (2) Crimea; (3) reduced sanctions will occur over a period of time to ensure compliance. Russia agrees to relinquish any claim to X billion of dollars held by Europe and US for the rebuild of the Ukraine; establishment of 5-10 mile wide DMZ. If that isn't agreeable to the Russians, you then convey that the West will up its arms contributions to the Ukraine, and the US says "we won't object if Europe puts troops on the ground". Russia isn't going to use nukes and they cannot sustain or fight a multi-front war.

Simultaneously, you need to approach China--layout the plan and get them to not object. They might publically object, but China wants cash more than anything else.

Would Russia take such an approach seriously? I think they would, but much might be conditioned on (1) through (3) above. We already see Poland and the other former eastern bloc countries rev up their training and spending. If Putin rejects and thinks it is a bluff--then short of complete capitulation by the Ukraine, there might not be much anyone can do to stop the war.

It is 6:30 a.m, so not sure how much sense this makes when I'm only a half a cup of coffee into my day

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Sorry--missed your note last night--I was riveted to the NFL draft enjoying the Sanders draft stock drop now into the 4th round.

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Europe and the United States made several mistakes: (1) The Russian invasion of Chechnya (after its agreed upon independence). This was the admitted false flag operation where Putin's operatives bombed an apartment in Russia to justify an invasion; (2) Invasion of Georgia; (3) 2003-2013 russian murder attempts of non-russian puppets in the Ukraine; and (4) Russian Crimea invasion in 2014. They were mistakes because the United States and Europe did nothing.

The security agreement that the UK, Russia and the US signed (maybe France was on there too--don't recall), in exchange or the Ukraine giving up its nukes was and is a useless agreement. A side note--any country that gives up nukes or stops developing nukes, would be hard pressed to give up those weapons.

Today, the Ukraine has reclaimed a sizeable amount of the land that the Russian's captured at the start of the war. That is not unimpressive. Russia's advance has been stalled for the most part, relying exclusively on long range missiles and drones. 3 on, the Russians aren't where they wanted to be. That is the only leverage the Ukraine has at the moment under the current US administration. Europe's continued contributions to the war effort have increased, but most of their military equipment isn't as good as our to be decomissioned weapon systems/tanks/armored vehicles that constitute 75% of what we have provided to the Ukraine. I would point out that US Military was spot on when they told the Ukranians that planes weren't going to make a difference because of all the anti-aircraft systems the russians moved in. And for similarly reasons, that is why you aren't seeing Russian planes either.

If I was the current president in this situation, and the only goal was to stop the war I would do the following:

1. stop tweeting about it;
2. stop publically taking sides;
3. have serious conversations with congress in a private setting to encourage them not to buy into the russian disinformation and just be quiet for a period of time.

Russia looks at us now as if we are backing the Putin regime, and we know this because they talk about it on Russian TV, etc, We also know this because of goofy comments from president about going into business with Russia, developing land with Russia, blah blah.

4. Go to Europe--the war isn't going to end unless Europe is involved. Put together a joint plan where you convey to the russians that Europe and US will permit some of the following for Russia: (1) some land; (2) Crimea; (3) reduced sanctions will occur over a period of time to ensure compliance. Russia agrees to relinquish any claim to X billion of dollars held by Europe and US for the rebuild of the Ukraine; establishment of 5-10 mile wide DMZ. If that isn't agreeable to the Russians, you then convey that the West will up its arms contributions to the Ukraine, and the US says "we won't object if Europe puts troops on the ground". Russia isn't going to use nukes and they cannot sustain or fight a multi-front war.

Simultaneously, you need to approach China--layout the plan and get them to not object. They might publically object, but China wants cash more than anything else.

Would Russia take such an approach seriously? I think they would, but much might be conditioned on (1) through (3) above. We already see Poland and the other former eastern bloc countries rev up their training and spending. If Putin rejects and thinks it is a bluff--then short of complete capitulation by the Ukraine, there might not be much anyone can do to stop the war.

It is 6:30 a.m, so not sure how much sense this makes when I'm only a half a cup of coffee into my day

100% agree.

Also want to link this just because it makes me happy.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Sorry--missed your note last night--I was riveted to the NFL draft enjoying the Sanders draft stock drop now into the 4th round.

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Europe and the United States made several mistakes: (1) The Russian invasion of Chechnya (after its agreed upon independence). This was the admitted false flag operation where Putin's operatives bombed an apartment in Russia to justify an invasion; (2) Invasion of Georgia; (3) 2003-2013 russian murder attempts of non-russian puppets in the Ukraine; and (4) Russian Crimea invasion in 2014. They were mistakes because the United States and Europe did nothing.

The security agreement that the UK, Russia and the US signed (maybe France was on there too--don't recall), in exchange or the Ukraine giving up its nukes was and is a useless agreement. A side note--any country that gives up nukes or stops developing nukes, would be hard pressed to give up those weapons.

Today, the Ukraine has reclaimed a sizeable amount of the land that the Russian's captured at the start of the war. That is not unimpressive. Russia's advance has been stalled for the most part, relying exclusively on long range missiles and drones. 3 on, the Russians aren't where they wanted to be. That is the only leverage the Ukraine has at the moment under the current US administration. Europe's continued contributions to the war effort have increased, but most of their military equipment isn't as good as our to be decomissioned weapon systems/tanks/armored vehicles that constitute 75% of what we have provided to the Ukraine. I would point out that US Military was spot on when they told the Ukranians that planes weren't going to make a difference because of all the anti-aircraft systems the russians moved in. And for similarly reasons, that is why you aren't seeing Russian planes either.

If I was the current president in this situation, and the only goal was to stop the war I would do the following:

1. stop tweeting about it;
2. stop publically taking sides;
3. have serious conversations with congress in a private setting to encourage them not to buy into the russian disinformation and just be quiet for a period of time.

Russia looks at us now as if we are backing the Putin regime, and we know this because they talk about it on Russian TV, etc, We also know this because of goofy comments from president about going into business with Russia, developing land with Russia, blah blah.

4. Go to Europe--the war isn't going to end unless Europe is involved. Put together a joint plan where you convey to the russians that Europe and US will permit some of the following for Russia: (1) some land; (2) Crimea; (3) reduced sanctions will occur over a period of time to ensure compliance. Russia agrees to relinquish any claim to X billion of dollars held by Europe and US for the rebuild of the Ukraine; establishment of 5-10 mile wide DMZ. If that isn't agreeable to the Russians, you then convey that the West will up its arms contributions to the Ukraine, and the US says "we won't object if Europe puts troops on the ground". Russia isn't going to use nukes and they cannot sustain or fight a multi-front war.

Simultaneously, you need to approach China--layout the plan and get them to not object. They might publically object, but China wants cash more than anything else.

Would Russia take such an approach seriously? I think they would, but much might be conditioned on (1) through (3) above. We already see Poland and the other former eastern bloc countries rev up their training and spending. If Putin rejects and thinks it is a bluff--then short of complete capitulation by the Ukraine, there might not be much anyone can do to stop the war.

It is 6:30 a.m, so not sure how much sense this makes when I'm only a half a cup of coffee into my day

Good points and post. Except, you shouldn’t be so dismissive of the “going into business “ point. Long term security will necessarily involve commerce and business entanglements. That is what provides security leverage, the threat of economic sanctions doesn’t mean much unless you have something to lose.

 

[dbmhoosier]

It's like Daddy giving a lecture to his 5 year old.