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Trump Zelensky today.....

This is simple. It did not happen as the Twitter Twits said it did. It was a meeting between Democrat AND Republican Senators and Zelenskyy. The Senators simply expressed support and hopes for a peace deal in the not too distant future. Support for Ukraine has been bipartisan until now.
You don't really know what was said to Z. I don't find it hard to believe, at all, that Democrats are actively working to undermine any peace agreement with Ukraine.

You think Z didn't come here, after agreeing to sign it, and then thew in conditions at the last minute without some kind of event happening at the last minute?
 
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I collaborate with a Ukrainian-born biologist. He has lost many relatives to the war. Meanwhile our joint grant application was set to be reviewed but is on hold, having been DOGED. Looking for a better rheumatoid arthritis therapy is too woke, I guess.
 
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Ok. But I believe there is zero chance Russia accepts that with NATO membership. Just my opinion. I think the NATO is a non-starter for Putin.

And no mention of US security guarantees for Ukraine. Obviously, Z wants that as he demanded last week.
I agree and that's why I said the US would guarantee NATO would not accept Ukraine as a member.

I think I said in my original post that some 3rd party military would enforce the DMZ areas.
 
Under current admin, maybe we let Taiwan go. Under any other admin of either party, we defend it.

The US, up until 6 weeks ago, had a deal with the world in which we would directly defend friends accessible by ocean and would support friends who are not. Join our economic system, let us make the security calls, and you are in. It’s not perfect but we’ve staved off WW3 for decades by using this blueprint. But hey, f*ck it!
Too completely different scenarios imo. I would be absolutely uncomfortable with supporting Taiwan. Officially Taiwan is recognized as part of the People's Republic. In essence, you can't invade your own sovereign. Ukraine was a sovereign nation and on Europes doorstep. Our interests are far less threatened in Taiwan case unless you are arguing over chips.
 
He said it was 20 years after the 1994 agreement, so I assume it's 2014, the year Russia invaded Crimea.

Ok. Well, things have changed in the past 11 years. Guessing Marco's opinion may have changed a little bit.
 
You don't really know what was said to Z. I don't find it hard to believe, at all, that Democrats are actively working to undermine any peace agreement with Ukraine.

You think Z didn't come here, after agreeing to sign it, and then thew in conditions at the last minute without some kind of event happening at the last minute?

Since Republicans were in the meeting, don't you think they would have direct quotes from Democrats?
 
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Because I think we shouldn't trust people who change their positions based on who they work for.

Anyone who would give up their principles to get a job for personal advantage is not someone I'd want in government, although I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't happen all the time.
Who knows if his position changed or not. He can voice disagreements privately when he has them, or resign.

But at the end of then day he has to operate within the directives he’s been given.

What you’re advocating for sounds an awful lot like deep state operatives who undermine the presidents vision.
 
Under current admin, maybe we let Taiwan go. Under any other admin of either party, we defend it.

The US, up until 6 weeks ago, had a deal with the world in which we would directly defend friends accessible by ocean and would support friends who are not. Join our economic system, let us make the security calls, and you are in. It’s not perfect but we’ve staved off WW3 for decades by using this blueprint. But hey, f*ck it!
Our official position has never been that we would militarily defend Taiwan.
 
It used to be easy to explain war fatigue, Americans drew tired of having their children die.

It turns out it isn't Americans dying that causes war fatigue since there are not Americans dying. It is cost. It is that we will pay no price for liberty. Putin is pouring in Russia's treasure AND children and we lack the will to send our older castoff equipment.

I can see where China would get the idea Taiwan is free for the taking.
Yes, if the US won't supply money to a country on the other side of the world, what does that tell China about our willingness to sacrifice lives and money to defend another country on the other side of the world.
 
You don't really know what was said to Z. I don't find it hard to believe, at all, that Democrats are actively working to undermine any peace agreement with Ukraine.

You think Z didn't come here, after agreeing to sign it, and then thew in conditions at the last minute without some kind of event happening at the last minute?
If anything like that happened during the meeting, the Republican Senators in that same meeting would have come forward and said that it happened. They didn't.

Democrats and Republicans want a peace deal. This has been bipartisan. Except for the MAGA faction that has been pro-Russia and delayed military aid to Ukraine for six months and would be happy to cease all aid and allow Russia to occupy all of Ukraine.
 
Who knows if his position changed or not. He can voice disagreements privately when he has them, or resign.

But at the end of then day he has to operate within the directives he’s been given.

What you’re advocating for sounds an awful lot like deep state operatives who undermine the presidents vision.
I don't know where you get off with your last sentence. What, exactly, is the President's vision? To make a minerals deal in disputed territory? How can Ukraine make a deal in areas Russia occupies?

Do you think Russia will willingly leave Ukraine because th US wants to mine in those areas?
 
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That is great, it isn't anything new:
TSMC has already made strides to expand its footprint in the U.S prior to Monday’s announcement. The company committed $12 billion in 2020 to build its first U.S. chip factory in Arizona, later raising that investment to $65 billion with a third factory. It has also gained U.S. government support through a $6.6 billion subsidy from the U.S. Commerce Department.​


This new investment will at least bring the new chips here, I suspect not all that we need but it is better than nothing.

I am not suggesting we commit Americans to Taiwan; suggesting Taiwan can't count on anything more than a sympathy card from the US. Probably the same for Japan, Korea, Hawaii, etc.
And then we get a world arms race. Americans like to complain about other country's depending on us, but those same countries were attacking America when they had strong militaries.

Alliances can turn on a dime and, as I mentioned above, as generations die off, memories are lost. I beleive we're at a dangerous point in history where, once again, nations arm up - and they find a reason to use their new military strength.
 
My entire military career we had active plans to defend Taiwan. They were continually modified as conditions changed, but the intent was always to defend Taiwan. My guess is that hasn't changed.
I’m sure there are contingency plans and war games for all manner of potential conflicts.

It doesn’t mean they will ever be put into effect.

Look up our official diplomatic position on Taiwan, it hasn’t changed in decades.
 
I don't know where you get off with your last sentence. What, exactly, is the President's vision? To make a minerals deal in disputed territory? How can Ukraine make a deal in areas Russia occupies?

Do you think Russia will willingly leave Ukraine because th US wants to mine in those areas?

The President isn't going to reveal his cards or his vision yet. Would be crazy to do so.

As for minerals, none of us know the details of the deal nor the conversations between Trump and Putin. Maybe Trump has hashed it out. Maybe he hasn't. We don't get to know.

So it comes down to trusting Trump and if can get a good done. I'd like to see this play out because all the dems offer is more money for more war.
 
I don't know where you get off with your last sentence. What, exactly, is the President's vision? To make a minerals deal in disputed territory? How can Ukraine make a deal in areas Russia occupies?

Do you think Russia will willingly leave Ukraine because th US wants to mine in those areas?
We don’t know what a final peace deal looks like. We can be sure that Rubio has a much better idea than chest thumpers on a message board.
 
The President isn't going to reveal his cards or his vision yet. Would be crazy to do so.

As for minerals, none of us know the details of the deal nor the conversations between Trump and Putin. Maybe Trump has hashed it out. Maybe he hasn't. We don't get to know.

So it comes down to trusting Trump and if can get a good done. I'd like to see this play out because all the dems offer is more money for more war.
I did trust Trump until I saw that display last Friday. That was like high school bullies beating up on a frail kid.

It was going fine until JD didn't like to be reminded of the past agreements Russia broke, and then all hell broke loose. Why? Because Z pointed out Russians aren't to be trusted? Well, no shit!

Like everyone else, this should have been played out behind closed doors and it's just weird it was played out in public. It causes both sides to position themselves in public. But, again, things were fine until JD got embarrassed.

Do I trust Trump now? I don't know. I'm sure he has ulterior motives for what he's doing, but it seems like his plan is to accept Russia's actions and force Ukraine to accept the situation on the ground. If that's the case, it's nothing but Ukrainian capitulation.
 
I don't know. What Republicans? Murkowski? Collins?
According to Ukraine:

During his visit to the United States, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy met in Washington with a bipartisan delegation from the U.S. Senate. The delegation included Republican senators: President pro tempore of the Senate Chuck Grassley, Сhairman of the Armed Services Committee and Co-Chair of the Senate Ukraine Caucus Roger Wicker, and Сhairman of the Senate Budget Committee Lindsey Graham. The Democratic senators included Chairwoman of the Democratic Steering and Outreach Committee Amy Klobuchar, Co-Chair of the Senate Committee on Environment Sheldon Whitehouse, Co-Chair of the Senate Committee on Veterans’ Affairs Richard Blumenthal, Co-Chair of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs Brian Schatz, Co-Chair of the Senate Ethics Committee Chris Coons, as well as Chris Van Hollen, Peter Welch, and Mark Kelly.

 
According to Ukraine:

During his visit to the United States, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy met in Washington with a bipartisan delegation from the U.S. Senate. The delegation included Republican senators: President pro tempore of the Senate Chuck Grassley, Сhairman of the Armed Services Committee and Co-Chair of the Senate Ukraine Caucus Roger Wicker, and Сhairman of the Senate Budget Committee Lindsey Graham. The Democratic senators included Chairwoman of the Democratic Steering and Outreach Committee Amy Klobuchar, Co-Chair of the Senate Committee on Environment Sheldon Whitehouse, Co-Chair of the Senate Committee on Veterans’ Affairs Richard Blumenthal, Co-Chair of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs Brian Schatz, Co-Chair of the Senate Ethics Committee Chris Coons, as well as Chris Van Hollen, Peter Welch, and Mark Kelly.

And he didn't meet with anyone else? I don't know his calendar.

But I'm pretty sure of one thing - he didn't agree 3 times to sign an agreement without expressing the need for security guarantees before last Friday.

We don't even know why the agreement wasn't signed, do we? Did Z refuse to sign? Did Trump send him away before the scheduled signing?

A lot of questions around the entire fiasco and all I'm saying is, I wouldn't find it surprising at all if non-elected Democrats like Susan Rice, et. al. encouraged Z to not accept the deal at the last minute, whether it's in an official meeting or not.
 
And he didn't meet with anyone else? I don't know his calendar.

But I'm pretty sure of one thing - he didn't agree 3 times to sign an agreement without expressing the need for security guarantees before last Friday.

We don't even know why the agreement wasn't signed, do we? Did Z refuse to sign? Did Trump send him away before the scheduled signing?

A lot of questions around the entire fiasco and all I'm saying is, I wouldn't find it surprising at all if non-elected Democrats like Susan Rice, et. al. encouraged Z to not accept the deal at the last minute, whether it's in an official meeting or not.

Certainly possible, I cannot prove a negative. I can say at this moment I have seen no proof

I have seen reporting he left before signing. I have seen reports he was told to leave before signing. I don't know that he refused, I don't know he didn't.
 
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Are you kidding?

The Democrats have said, are saying, and will say Trump is Putin’s buddy and Zelenskyy shouldn’t trust our president. The Trump/Putin theme the democrats keep hammering is a huge obstacle.

I can't speak for Democrats, the argument I make is that he can't trust Putin. That seems to be the argument Z makes. Do you trust Putin?
 
I did trust Trump until I saw that display last Friday. That was like high school bullies beating up on a frail kid.

It was going fine until JD didn't like to be reminded of the past agreements Russia broke, and then all hell broke loose. Why? Because Z pointed out Russians aren't to be trusted? Well, no shit!

Like everyone else, this should have been played out behind closed doors and it's just weird it was played out in public. It causes both sides to position themselves in public. But, again, things were fine until JD got embarrassed.

Do I trust Trump now? I don't know. I'm sure he has ulterior motives for what he's doing, but it seems like his plan is to accept Russia's actions and force Ukraine to accept the situation on the ground. If that's the case, it's nothing but Ukrainian capitulation.

Then we will just disagree. I did not see it the same way. I saw a nice ceremonial signing get turned into a negotiation on TV with Z bringing props (pics) and telling the President of the US what he needs to do for Ukraine and say to Putin.

I think he blindsided the President, who was cordial, but noticeably irritated, IMHO. And what did JD say in response to a reporter's question? This:

Vance: “I will respond to this. So look, for four years the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the President of the United States’ words mattered more than the President of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

What is wrong with that? Not one mention of Ukraine. Then Z shoots back:

Zelensky: [to Vance] Can I ask you [something]? Okay, so he occupied big parts of Ukraine, parts of the East and Crimea. So he occupied it on 2013 so during a lot of years, I'm not speaking about just Biden, but in those times there President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now the President Trump. And God bless President Trump will stop him. But during 2013 nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took he killed people."

Z started to argue with Vance. I am not sure why he decided to argue with Vance who answered a reporter's question. Trump answered the question and so did Vance. What did either of them say that would cause him to respond? He should have just shut up, has lunch, and signed the deal.

Again, just my opinion on how I saw it.
 
Then we will just disagree. I did not see it the same way. I saw a nice ceremonial signing get turned into a negotiation on TV with Z bringing props (pics) and telling the President of the US what he needs to do for Ukraine and say to Putin.

I think he blindsided the President, who was cordial, but noticeably irritated, IMHO. And what did JD say in response to a reporter's question? This:

Vance: “I will respond to this. So look, for four years the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the President of the United States’ words mattered more than the President of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

What is wrong with that? Not one mention of Ukraine. Then Z shoots back:

Zelensky: [to Vance] Can I ask you [something]? Okay, so he occupied big parts of Ukraine, parts of the East and Crimea. So he occupied it on 2013 so during a lot of years, I'm not speaking about just Biden, but in those times there President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now the President Trump. And God bless President Trump will stop him. But during 2013 nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took he killed people."

Z started to argue with Vance. I am not sure why he decided to argue with Vance who answered a reporter's question. Trump answered the question and so did Vance. What did either of them say that would cause him to respond? He should have just shut up, has lunch, and signed the deal.

Again, just my opinion on how I saw it.

No reporter asked Vance anything. He jumped in and asked to speak. He wanted attention.... And he got it.
 
Then we will just disagree. I did not see it the same way. I saw a nice ceremonial signing get turned into a negotiation on TV with Z bringing props (pics) and telling the President of the US what he needs to do for Ukraine and say to Putin.

I think he blindsided the President, who was cordial, but noticeably irritated, IMHO. And what did JD say in response to a reporter's question? This:

Vance: “I will respond to this. So look, for four years the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the President of the United States’ words mattered more than the President of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

What is wrong with that? Not one mention of Ukraine. Then Z shoots back:

Zelensky: [to Vance] Can I ask you [something]? Okay, so he occupied big parts of Ukraine, parts of the East and Crimea. So he occupied it on 2013 so during a lot of years, I'm not speaking about just Biden, but in those times there President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now the President Trump. And God bless President Trump will stop him. But during 2013 nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took he killed people."

Z started to argue with Vance. I am not sure why he decided to argue with Vance who answered a reporter's question. Trump answered the question and so did Vance. What did either of them say that would cause him to respond? He should have just shut up, has lunch, and signed the deal.

Again, just my opinion on how I saw it.
I watched the entire thing too, and this was JD Vance's fault. He instigated the entire thing and Zelenskyy could hardly get a word in edgewise from that point on. The VP is supposed to sit there and stay quiet unless the President directly asks him something. This meeting was between the leaders of Ukraine and the United States. The underlings are there as observers and for the private part of the event. However, JD jumped in unasked and was belligerent towards Zelenskyy. Nothing Zelenskyy said or did warranted that. Nothing. Then the President seemed to get irritated when Zelenskky said something negative about Putin and reacted as if he felt the need to defend Putin. That was strange. To the best of my recollection we've never had a shitshow like this at these types of events. It's because this isn't the way the public part of diplomacy is supposed to happen. All the shitshow part of that event could have happened in private IF it needed to happen at all (I don't believe it did). It's clear at this point that those that are blaming Zelenskky for this shitshow are a minority in this country and world-wide. This is a huge embarrassment in my humble opinion.
 
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No reporter asked Vance anything. He jumped in and asked to speak. He wanted attention.... And he got it.

He jumped in on a question from the reporter after Trump answered. None of what he said was directed at Z or Ukraine. Z addressed Vance, not the other way around.
 
I watched the entire thing too, and this was JD Vance's fault. He instigated the entire thing and Zelenskyy could hardly get a word in edgewise from that point on. The VP is supposed to sit there and stay quiet unless the President directly asks him something. This meeting was between the leaders of Ukraine and the United States. The underlings are there as observers and for the private part of the event. However, JD jumped in unasked and was belligerent towards Zelenskyy. Nothing Zelenskyy said or did warranted that. Nothing. Then the President seemed to get irritated when Zelenskky said something negative about Putin and reacted as if he felt the need to defend Putin. That was strange. To the best of my recollection we've never had a shitshow. It's because this isn't the way the public part of diplomacy is supposed to happen. All the shitshow part of that event could have happened in private IF it needed to happen at all (I don't believe it did). It's clear at this point that those that are blaming Zelenskky for this shitshow are a minority in this country and world-wide. This is a huge embarrassment in my humble opinion.

We will never agree. Z directly engaged Vance. Vance did not initially engage Z. Vance answered a reporter's question that was directed to Trump. Trump answered, then Vance answered. Should he have? Maybe not. But 1) Vance said nothing anti-Ukraine not pro-Russia ans 2) Trump didn't mind or say JD, I'll handle this. He allowed JD to answer the reporter. There was absolutely no reason for Z to engage Vance. Zero. None.
 
A student I taught in one of my last international classes in my last active-duty assignment was a Ukranian officer. She posted this on Facebook yesterday:

38770934_web1_M-0303-ukraine-trump-komar-1024x718.jpg


No doubt Ukrainians would see it this way. This is creating a lot of doubt about our resolve to support our allies and partners as we have since WWII. This isn't the kind of foreign policy our country should engage in.
Maybe you should not agree to terms and then on live tv decide you are not going to sign the agreement. Also you should understand that if there are American citizens in Ukraine which there will be, America will be there to help protect them and their interests.
 
We will never agree. Z directly engaged Vance. Vance did not initially engage Z. Vance answered a reporter's question that was directed to Trump. Trump answered, then Vance answered. Should he have? Maybe not. But 1) Vance said nothing anti-Ukraine not pro-Russia ans 2) Trump didn't mind or say JD, I'll handle this. He allowed JD to answer the reporter. There was absolutely no reason for Z to engage Vance. Zero. None.
That's OK - I know I'm right! ;)

A question for you. Where did you get your quotes from? The quote from Vance and Zelenskyy were wrong. The year was 2014 not 2013. Here's the actual quote from the video I watched and the correct transcript:

Vance: For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States’ words mattered more than the president of the United States’ actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That’s what President Trump is doing.

Zelenskyy: Okay, he occupied our parts, big parts of Ukraine, part of East and Crimea, so he occupied it in 2014. So, during a lot of years, I’m not speaking about just Biden, but those time was President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump and, God bless, now President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people, you know? What the contact line -


Then he was cut off by President Trump who said, "2015" and he was wrong. Zelenskyy AND Vance corrected him, though Vance tried to soften it by saying "2014 to 2015" which I thought was subtle ass kissing. The occupation (illegal, by the way) of Crimea happened in 2014, but that's to be expected from a VP to a Prez, I suppose.

Also, what Vance interrupted to say wasn't really responsive to the question to Trump, which the President answered. Vance jumped in after the President to say what he said. The "let me respond to this" part wasn't said because he wasn't responding to the question that Trump had already answered.

This has the video which starts before Vance jumped in and started the shitshow. It includes the transcript of the shitshow too:


Interestingly, this is what Senator Graham said that he said in that bipartisan Senator meeting with Zelenskyy:

I told him this morning, ‘Don’t take the bait. Don’t let the media or anyone else get you into an argument with President Trump.

I don't think Graham knew that it would be Vance to start the argument.
 
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