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Tom Crean or Mike Davis....or just Tom Allen

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RegionHoosiers

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I used to think Allen was analogous to Tom Crean. All rah-rah and recruiting but not much X's and O's. But in time I think that's unfair to Crean.

Is he more like Mike Davis? As in the guy in the next office down when they fired someone and needed a step-in quickly, regardless of if he had any head coaching experience at this level? Well not really fair to Mike Davis either. Mike started as interim and did have some success. And he certainly wasn't able to negotiate the ridiculous buy-out that Allen did.

Seems clear Allen's success was from starting with a solid team (for IU at least - heading to a bowl) and then hiring a couple very good coordinators. Once they left the success did also.

So who pays the price for the ridiculous buy-out? Certainly with the big ten money they can't allow Allen to stay after this year. That's on Dolson right?
 
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RegionHoosiers said:
I used to think Allen was analogous to Tom Crean. All rah-rah and recruiting but not much X's and O's. But in time I think that's unfair to Crean.

Is he more like Mike Davis? As in the guy in the next office down when they fired someone and needed a step-in quickly, regardless of if he had any head coaching experience at this level? Well not really fair to Mike Davis either. Mike started as interim and did have some success. And he certainly wasn't able to negotiate the ridiculous buy-out that Allen did.

Seems clear Allen's success was from starting with a solid team (for IU at least - heading to a bowl) and then hiring a couple very good coordinators. Once they left the success did also.

So who pays the price for the ridiculous buy-out? Certainly with the big ten money they can't allow Allen to stay after this year. That's on Dolson right?
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So you’re on record that he’s getting fired this year? 🤣
 
One of the things I wonder about is the amount of Coaching Staff Turnover. Womack and Deboer leaving for Head Coaching Positions is one thing. However, several years ago after Womack We had a DC who lasted one year, and one other Coach who left after one Year. Is Allen impossible to work with? Does He intentionally hire average Coaches so He can appear to be the Smartest guy in the room? Is he incapable of surrounding himself with highly successful Coaches, and step back and supervise, or does He have to have his hands in every pie even when He would be better off stepping back and letting someone with more knowledge run various facets of the game.
 
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I love how people have simultaneously somehow decided that Allen should get no credit for his good seasons and that they say nothing about his coaching ability, but at the same time that he should get all the blame for his poor seasons and they say everything about his coaching ability.

Clear hypocrisy and confirmation bias from people that don't like him. Either the results matter in evaluating a coach, and therefore the fact that he owns by far the two best seasons in decades at IU matters and should be part of the consideration of his quality, or they don't matter, and you therefore can't use the poor results of 2021 and this year to decide he's terrible. You can't have it both ways.
 
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Hoosiers47614 said:
I love how people have simultaneously somehow decided that Allen should get no credit for his good seasons and that they say nothing about his coaching ability, but at the same time that he should get all the blame for his poor seasons and they say everything about his coaching ability.

Clear hypocrisy and confirmation bias from people that don't like him. Either the results matter in evaluating a coach, and therefore the fact that he owns by far the two best seasons in decades at IU matters and should be part of the consideration of his quality, or they don't matter, and you therefore can't use the poor results of 2021 and this year to decide he's terrible. You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...
What coach would survive at any other school with 5 losing seasons out of 7, which is what it will be next year at the conclusion of 2023?
Answer: nobody
 
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bdhman said:
Crean did win 2 B10 titles and had a #1 NCAA seed. Davis got IU to NCAA title game. Allen does not compare to either at this point.
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If you look at my history on this site, you will see that I have always believed that firing Mike Davis was a gigantic mistake and I still stand by that. What he accomplished, when you compare it to Tom Crean and to Tom Allen, is so superior that it is silly to make comparisons. Getting IU to a national championship game that over 300 universities were trying to get too should be applauded rather than shoved down our throats as comparable to the major failures especially of Allen. Crean also did more for IU and shouldn't be in this conversation either. Come on folks, give Mike Davis a little credit. You look really bad when you don't acknowledge what he did for IU.
 
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Rotonda Jim said:
If you look at my history on this site, you will see that I have always believed that firing Mike Davis was a gigantic mistake and I still stand by that. What he accomplished, when you compare it to Tom Crean and to Tom Allen, is so superior that it is silly to make comparisons. Getting IU to a national championship game that over 300 universities were trying to get too should be applauded rather than shoved down our throats as comparable to the major failures especially of Allen. Crean also did more for IU and shouldn't be in this conversation either. Come on folks, give Mike Davis a little credit. You look really bad when you don't acknowledge what he did for IU.
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They both had some fun teams to watch. If coverdale didn't hurt his ankle there's a good chance they would have hung a banner. Give Davis credit for those teams for sure.

And Crean started with absolutely nothing and had a #1 ranked team, two top 5 draft picks, etc.

In retrospect IU went backwards after each firing.
 
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Hoosiers47614 said:
I love how people have simultaneously somehow decided that Allen should get no credit for his good seasons and that they say nothing about his coaching ability, but at the same time that he should get all the blame for his poor seasons and they say everything about his coaching ability.

Clear hypocrisy and confirmation bias from people that don't like him. Either the results matter in evaluating a coach, and therefore the fact that he owns by far the two best seasons in decades at IU matters and should be part of the consideration of his quality, or they don't matter, and you therefore can't use the poor results of 2021 and this year to decide he's terrible. You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...
How long do the results from 2 years ago factor into his current performance and state of the program?
 
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Hoosiers47614 said:
I love how people have simultaneously somehow decided that Allen should get no credit for his good seasons and that they say nothing about his coaching ability, but at the same time that he should get all the blame for his poor seasons and they say everything about his coaching ability.

Clear hypocrisy and confirmation bias from people that don't like him. Either the results matter in evaluating a coach, and therefore the fact that he owns by far the two best seasons in decades at IU matters and should be part of the consideration of his quality, or they don't matter, and you therefore can't use the poor results of 2021 and this year to decide he's terrible. You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...
I've been on the Allen bandwagon since he turned around the defense as coordinator.

And those 2 years were the most fun I've had watching IU football.

Seeing this season turning into a replay of last but with so many new coaches and players is what is turning my opinion of him as a head coach. I don't see any signs he has the ability to turn it around. Keeping the O line coach after last season. Continuing with this hurry up offense. The gimmicky takeaways defense. Dumb penalties. That's what stands out.
 
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RegionHoosiers said:
I used to think Allen was analogous to Tom Crean. All rah-rah and recruiting but not much X's and O's. But in time I think that's unfair to Crean.

Is he more like Mike Davis? As in the guy in the next office down when they fired someone and needed a step-in quickly, regardless of if he had any head coaching experience at this level? Well not really fair to Mike Davis either. Mike started as interim and did have some success. And he certainly wasn't able to negotiate the ridiculous buy-out that Allen did.

Seems clear Allen's success was from starting with a solid team (for IU at least - heading to a bowl) and then hiring a couple very good coordinators. Once they left the success did also.

So who pays the price for the ridiculous buy-out? Certainly with the big ten money they can't allow Allen to stay after this year. That's on Dolson right?
Click to expand...
Davis and Crean had far more success than Allen ever had. Neither one was ever a bottom dweller in the conference if you take out Crean's first few years. The covid fluke season is just that a total fluke for Allen he is like 1-13 since.
 
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bailey777 said:
Davis and Crean had far more success than Allen ever had. Neither one was ever a bottom dweller in the conference if you take out Crean's first few years. The covid fluke season is just that a total fluke for Allen he is like 1-13 since.
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The past two years have been a disaster for sure, but how people like you, and those of your ilk can completely disregard 2019 and 2020 frankly just pisses me off.
 
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kraft cheese+macaroni said:
The past two years have been a disaster for sure, but how people like you, and those of your ilk can completely disregard 2019 and 2020 frankly just pisses me off.
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I don't know who is disregarding the success from those two years. But the wheels fell off last year and this year is the same, and IU hasn't even hit the worst part of the schedule yet.

DeBoer and Penix aren't coming back. Ramsey either. Allen's teams have not done anything well since about when COVID cancelled the PU game in 2020.
 
RegionHoosiers said:
I've been on the Allen bandwagon since he turned around the defense as coordinator.

And those 2 years were the most fun I've had watching IU football.

Seeing this season turning into a replay of last but with so many new coaches and players is what is turning my opinion of him as a head coach. I don't see any signs he has the ability to turn it around. Keeping the O line coach after last season. Continuing with this hurry up offense. The gimmicky takeaways defense. Dumb penalties. That's what stands out.
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I will forever be dumbfounded as to how Hiller kept his job after last season. I will always wonder how this season might have been different had he been shown the door the same day as Sheridan and Rod Carey been offered the OL / OC position.
 
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RegionHoosiers said:
I don't know who is disregarding the success from those two years. But the wheels fell off last year and this year is the same, and IU hasn't even hit the worst part of the schedule yet.

DeBoer and Penix aren't coming back. Ramsey either. Allen's teams have not done anything well since about when COVID cancelled the PU game in 2020.
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Uh, are you *reading* the thread? Bailey777 disregards them so completely that he doesn’t even *mention* 2019 as one of TA’s successes, despite it being top-drawer by IU standards.

It happens *all the time* on this forum.
 
oldcougar77 said:
I will forever be dumbfounded as to how Hiller kept his job after last season. I will always wonder how this season might have been different had he been shown the door the same day as Sheridan and Rod Carey been offered the OL / OC position.
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The offense couldn't be any worse. At minimum they would have burned up a little more clock before punting.

And UMASS would have less money.
 
Radio Zero said:
Uh, are you *reading* the thread? Bailey777 disregards them so completely that he doesn’t even *mention* 2019 as one of TA’s successes, despite it being top-drawer by IU standards.

It happens *all the time* on this forum.
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I think most would view 19 as the high point.
 
Crossblock said:
One of the things I wonder about is the amount of Coaching Staff Turnover. Womack and Deboer leaving for Head Coaching Positions is one thing. However, several years ago after Womack We had a DC who lasted one year, and one other Coach who left after one Year. Is Allen impossible to work with? Does He intentionally hire average Coaches so He can appear to be the Smartest guy in the room? Is he incapable of surrounding himself with highly successful Coaches, and step back and supervise, or does He have to have his hands in every pie even when He would be better off stepping back and letting someone with more knowledge run various facets of the game.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure that Allen hired both Deboer and Womack so I don't know about "intentionally hire average coaches" - granted every other hire he has had are not impressive.
 
Crossblock said:
One of the things I wonder about is the amount of Coaching Staff Turnover. Womack and Deboer leaving for Head Coaching Positions is one thing. However, several years ago after Womack We had a DC who lasted one year, and one other Coach who left after one Year. Is Allen impossible to work with? Does He intentionally hire average Coaches so He can appear to be the Smartest guy in the room? Is he incapable of surrounding himself with highly successful Coaches, and step back and supervise, or does He have to have his hands in every pie even when He would be better off stepping back and letting someone with more knowledge run various facets of the game.
Click to expand...
Wet fair and reasonable question. I am concerned he is NOT confident enough to hire the best and brightest who have been there before, as he may not want people fans could be calling for all around him. That’s not the best way to be but may be how he is. Hiller, Coach T, Sheridan, Warren…Not a seasoned vet among them. If he had a track record of more DeBoer’s I’d say he got it. That feels more lucky rather than as deliberate.
 
Hoosiers47614 said:
I love how people have simultaneously somehow decided that Allen should get no credit for his good seasons and that they say nothing about his coaching ability, but at the same time that he should get all the blame for his poor seasons and they say everything about his coaching ability.

Clear hypocrisy and confirmation bias from people that don't like him. Either the results matter in evaluating a coach, and therefore the fact that he owns by far the two best seasons in decades at IU matters and should be part of the consideration of his quality, or they don't matter, and you therefore can't use the poor results of 2021 and this year to decide he's terrible. You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...
i give him credit for 2 out of 6. is that good enough for you? not me.
 
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Rotonda Jim said:
If you look at my history on this site, you will see that I have always believed that firing Mike Davis was a gigantic mistake and I still stand by that. What he accomplished, when you compare it to Tom Crean and to Tom Allen, is so superior that it is silly to make comparisons. Getting IU to a national championship game that over 300 universities were trying to get too should be applauded rather than shoved down our throats as comparable to the major failures especially of Allen. Crean also did more for IU and shouldn't be in this conversation either. Come on folks, give Mike Davis a little credit. You look really bad when you don't acknowledge what he did for IU.
Click to expand...
Here’s where I disagree:
With any coach, you have to look at the body of work. 2 good seasons or one championship game doesn’t guarantee anything for the long term.
Consistency is the key. Who can forget the final years of Davis at the helm? Hiding out at home and calling in sick when it got ugly and we lose an NIT game at home with like 6,000 people in the stands?
Have to look at how things are trending. It was trending badly for Davis just like it is for Allen. There is a feeling that the program is at rock bottom and when it gets to that point, the AD cannot let that fester for any length of time.
 
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Big Red Crimson Buffalo said:
Here’s where I disagree:
With any coach, you have to look at the body of work. 2 good seasons or one championship game doesn’t guarantee anything for the long term.
Consistency is the key. Who can forget the final years of Davis at the helm? Hiding out at home and calling in sick when it got ugly and we lose an NIT game at home with like 6,000 people in the stands?
Have to look at how things are trending. It was trending badly for Davis just like it is for Allen. There is a feeling that the program is at rock bottom and when it gets to that point, the AD cannot let that fester for any length of time.
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Mike Davis did not call in sick when things got ugly. Please do some research and learn why he stayed home or talk to the fans who went to the Iowa game on that day and figure it out for yourself. You would not have shown up either.
 
Rotonda Jim said:
Mike Davis did not call in sick when things got ugly. Please do some research and learn why he stayed home or talk to the fans who went to the Iowa game on that day and figure it out for yourself. You would not have shown up either.
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And for the record, Davis's record was pretty much the same as Knight's was during Knight's last six years. Just saying. Mike Davis served as Indiana head coach from 2000-06, and he compiled a 115-79 overall record and a 55-41 Big Ten Conference ledger. Davis was the first coach in IU history to open his tenure with three straight 20-plus win seasons and three straight NCAA Tournament appearances.
 
Rotonda Jim said:
If you look at my history on this site, you will see that I have always believed that firing Mike Davis was a gigantic mistake and I still stand by that. What he accomplished, when you compare it to Tom Crean and to Tom Allen, is so superior that it is silly to make comparisons. Getting IU to a national championship game that over 300 universities were trying to get too should be applauded rather than shoved down our throats as comparable to the major failures especially of Allen. Crean also did more for IU and shouldn't be in this conversation either. Come on folks, give Mike Davis a little credit. You look really bad when you don't acknowledge what he did for IU.
Click to expand...
Mike could not continue the success which was the problem. You could tell the program slid downhill over time. That was why he was let go. My view is the gigantic mistake was hiring Calvin Samscum. When he was gone then IU could not get any really good coach to come which is why we got Crean. Crean had some success but like Davis could not maintain it.
 
Rotonda said:
But leading Maryland with 9 minutes left in the game for a national championship is not misleading and something that has not happened since.
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I don't know about that...we have choked away a number of games since then.
 
dbmhoosier said:
I said from the hire that he's Crean with about a quarter of the coaching ability. Maybe a very poor man's Chuck Pagano.
Click to expand...
Basketball has one coach. Football has three coaches. And during the practice week they have more than a half a dozen coaches. Tom Green's coaching success is built on the back of Dwyane Wade.

One thing I have learned from watching these two guys coach is that it's very difficult to have incredible intensity and situational awareness at the same time.
 
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