The Trump Doctrine

[BradStevens]

Trump's foreign policy shift, as outlined in his speech in the Middle East, foregoes moral judgments of foreign regimes in favor of trade and deal making. He made a point to contrast his vision with the neocon ideas of planting fledgling democracies into the in the Middle East, with the idea that democracy would radiate outwards, once that region saw a functioning, vibrant democracy. Maybe the neocons got it wrong, and the culture of these nations need to change through trade and access to wealth? (Not that that last sentence is motivating Trump's view--he's more about American interests uber alles, I'd guess).

I see two historical problems with this notion: (1) the US kinda already tried this, dealing with dictators in the hopes of combatting the Soviet Union. The backlash was arguably the Iranian Revolution and 9/11. (2) Many of these nations, like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, are already very wealthy through their oil money. Yet they've concentrated that wealth in monarchies and still have a problem with fundamentalist Islam.

Trump declares the 'neocon' era over

President Donald Trump has a vision of a "great transformation" in the Middle East. But it's not the transformation that American leaders have talked

reason.com

Understanding Trump: a new doctrine for foreign policy without nuisance

For over a hundred days, every pundit and columnist has tried to decipher Donald Trump’s foreign policy strategy. After sifting through the reports and the presidential social media posts…

brusselssignal.eu

https://www.npr.org/2025/05/16/nx-s1-5398082/trump-announces-major-middle-east-foreign-policy-moves-many-sidestepping-israel

EDIT/REQUEST: This is a broad topic of foreign policy and a potential historic shift. It'd be nice if people could discuss that, instead of Trump this/Biden that, Dems/MAGA are stupid evil, etc. Please try to focus on IDEAS and posts, not politicians or posters.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Trump's foreign policy shift, as outlined in his speech in the Middle East, foregoes moral judgments of foreign regimes in favor of trade and deal making. He made a point to contrast his vision with the neocon ideas of planting fledgling democracies into the in the Middle East, with the idea that democracy would radiate outwards, once that region saw a functioning, vibrant democracy. Maybe the neocons got it wrong, and the culture of these nations need to change through trade and access to wealth? (Not that that last sentence is motivating Trump's view--he's more about American interests uber alles, I'd guess).

I see two historical problems with this notion: (1) the US kinda already tried this, dealing with dictators in the hopes of combatting the Soviet Union. The backlash was arguably the Iranian Revolution and 9/11. (2) Many of these nations, like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, are already very wealthy through their oil money. Yet they've concentrated that wealth in monarchies and still have a problem with fundamentalist Islam.

Trump declares the 'neocon' era over

President Donald Trump has a vision of a "great transformation" in the Middle East. But it's not the transformation that American leaders have talked

reason.com

Understanding Trump: a new doctrine for foreign policy without nuisance

For over a hundred days, every pundit and columnist has tried to decipher Donald Trump’s foreign policy strategy. After sifting through the reports and the presidential social media posts…

brusselssignal.eu

https://www.npr.org/2025/05/16/nx-s1-5398082/trump-announces-major-middle-east-foreign-policy-moves-many-sidestepping-israel

View embedded media

EDIT/REQUEST: This is a broad topic of foreign policy and a potential historic shift. It'd be nice if people could discuss that, instead of Trump this/Biden that, Dems/MAGA are stupid evil, etc. Please try to focus on IDEAS and posts, not politicians or posters.

Love it. Aspirational. Without turning it into the same stupid tribal shit you ask that we avoid I can’t help but wonder if it’s like maga and manufacturing and tariffs and the rest. Not based in reality and too late.

I know that much of the inculcated disdain people of some of these regions harbor over us stems from our ubiquity. Why the fck are you on our land. Well. In part politics military hegemony blah blah but largely to preserve our economic interests and hegemony. So is he hoping against hope to achieve the same ends with honey instead of vinegar? Again seems aspirational and not realistic.

Good on him tho

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Do we think he is serious about it? The US wrote a letter to Stockholm demanding they stop dealing with vendors who practice DEI? Does that sound like foregoing moral judgement?

Fact Check: Stockholm officials refused to comply with US Embassy's request regarding Trump's anti-DEI policies

Stockholm's city planning department received a letter stating U.S. State Department contractors must comply with "anti-discrimination laws."

www.yahoo.com

Does his threats to South Africa sound like foregoing moral judgement?

Are we going to normalize Venezuela? Cuba? North Korea?

So I am not sure how thought out the policy is. If we go back to normal relationship with Cuba, power to him. At this moment I am very skeptical he will do that. So there is something about Middle East despots he likes that doesn't carry over to to other despots, or even western liberal democracies like Sweden.

 

[BradStevens]

Do we think he is serious about it? The US wrote a letter to Stockholm demanding they stop dealing with vendors who practice DEI? Does that sound like foregoing moral judgement?

Fact Check: Stockholm officials refused to comply with US Embassy's request regarding Trump's anti-DEI policies

Stockholm's city planning department received a letter stating U.S. State Department contractors must comply with "anti-discrimination laws."

www.yahoo.com

Does his threats to South Africa sound like foregoing moral judgement?

Are we going to normalize Venezuela? Cuba? North Korea?

So I am not sure how thought out the policy is. If we go back to normal relationship with Cuba, power to him. At this moment I am very skeptical he will do that. So there is something about Middle East despots he likes that doesn't carry over to to other despots, or even western liberal democracies like Sweden.

Let’s just talk about the stated policy not the intentions of the person putting it forward.

The policy isn’t too far off Obama’s direction, is it?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Let’s just talk about the stated policy not the intentions of the person putting it forward.

The policy isn’t too far off Obama’s direction, is it?

How do you separate reality out? I do not know what his intentions are, just it is certainly not being uniformly applied.

I am far more a believer in Carter's policy of putting human rights at the forefront of American policy.

 

[UncleMark]

Wasn't this Nixon's thinking with China? Bush 41 and NAFTA?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Let’s just talk about the stated policy not the intentions of the person putting it forward.

The policy isn’t too far off Obama’s direction, is it?

Stated yes but Obama then did the opposite

 

[BradStevens]

How do you separate reality out? I do not know what his intentions are, just it is certainly not being uniformly applied.

I am far more a believer in Carter's policy of putting human rights at the forefront of American policy.

Ok, cool. There you go. I'm sure Carter didn't uniformly do that, but we can discuss the two different policies.

I think there is a vision of foreign policy that can be more isolationist, but also concerned with human rights. I'm not sure if that is consistent with Carter's ideas or not.

@UncleMark , I don't think NAFTA was premised on Trump's vision at all. Not sure we had a problem with Mexico's form of govt. or human rights abuses, and we never seriously could question Canada (other than their mail order bride conglomerates).

 

[larsIU]

The China comparison is apt. They did business with Mugabe.

I do wonder if the idea is to just come to terms with China, and to a lesser extent Europe/russia/Middle East relative to how we’re going to split up the world economy. If that’s Trump’s aim here (like rival mob bosses), there is a certain logic to it.

Feels a bit like a realignment focused on the threat of China. I think Taiwan should be concerned.

 

[BradStevens]

The China comparison is apt. They did business with Mugabe.

I do wonder if the idea is to just come to terms with China, and to a lesser extent Europe/russia/Middle East relative to how we’re going to split up the world economy. If that’s Trump’s aim here (like rival mob bosses), there is a certain logic to it.

Feels a bit like a realignment focused on the threat of China. I think Taiwan should be concerned.

They were talking about it on Maher's program this week, along with some political podcasts I listen to. Someone said they don't think Trump has and ideological problem with China at all (and I think that's right), he just wants our manufacturing back and wants better "deals."

You could make the mafia comp. I also think you could make a business competitor comp.--like Trump thinks of nations as rival companies all competing in some game. He doesn't really care what his competitors' corporate structures are, how they treat their shareholders or employees, just whether they can do business together and somehow profit from it. If so, they we are friends--the best of friends really. If not, then you're a loser and please don't bother him. A much different philosophy than protecting the underdog or championing democracy across the globe, etc.

 

[UncleMark]

@UncleMark , I don't think NAFTA was premised on Trump's vision at all. Not sure we had a problem with Mexico's form of govt. or human rights abuses, and we never seriously could question Canada (other than their mail order bride conglomerates).

Part of the reasoning behind NAFTA was to give Mexico the chance to grow its economy and reduce the amount of Mexicans coming to the US for work, therefore it was a part of GHWB's foreign policy. Perhaps a reach, but it falls into the same general category of using trade and commerce as a foreign policy tool.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

How do you separate reality out? I do not know what his intentions are, just it is certainly not being uniformly applied.

I am far more a believer in Carter's policy of putting human rights at the forefront of American policy.

Are those the same human rights, that the US demand that we conduct business with China? Ya know, so long as our people don't have jobs, we are ok with Chinese kids building our cheap crap. How is that a moral high ground? OH yea, I know.... It's not our kids so we don't care.

Such a proud moral people, those of us that scream that we won't pay $2 more for a T shirt so our people have jobs, but are okay with Foreign kids working 12 hour days for a bowl of rice. I'm so proud of that segment of our population.

 

[BradStevens]

Part of the reasoning behind NAFTA was to give Mexico the chance to grow its economy and reduce the amount of Mexicans coming to the US for work, therefore it was a part of GHWB's foreign policy. Perhaps a reach, but it falls into the same general category of using trade and commerce as a foreign policy tool.

Every President has used trade and commerce as a foreign policy tool. I don't think that encapsulates the shift the Trump Doctrine represents. Read one of those articles or listen to a link. It's interesting, important stuff.

 

[BradStevens]

Are those the same human rights, that the US demand that we conduct business with China? Ya know, so long as our people don't have jobs, we are ok with Chinese kids building our cheap crap. How is that a moral high ground? OH yea, I know.... It's not our kids so we don't care.

Such a proud moral people, those of us that scream that we won't pay $2 more for a T shirt so our people have jobs, but are okay with Foreign kids working 12 hour days for a bowl of rice. I'm so proud of that segment of our population.

You've got a point. Be nice to express it without the sarcasm, here, though.

Unless you're buidling a pergola. Then be as sarcastic as you want.

 

[Cortez88]

You've got a point. Be nice to express it without the sarcasm, here, though.

Unless you're buidling a pergola. Then be as sarcastic as you want.

We told you the pergola was dumb. One of the best time to sit in the back patio is when you have a nice summer rain. Ain’t doing that with a fake roof.

 

[larsIU]

We told you the pergola was dumb. One of the best time to sit in the back patio is when you have a nice summer rain. Ain’t doing that with a fake roof.

And, are Chinese kids doing the injection molding and fiber board pressing for those kits?

sorry Brad. Couldn't help myself.

Honestly though, I liked Joe's post b/c it's the white elephant. Our outsourcing of labor has opened the doors for numerous human rights violations around the world. But we shouldn't do deals with countries b/c of their human rights record? I can see the cognitive dissonance building. This usually doesn't end well.

 

[mcmurtry66]

And, are Chinese kids doing the injection molding and fiber board pressing for those kits?

sorry Brad. Couldn't help myself.

Honestly though, I liked Joe's post b/c it's the white elephant. Our outsourcing of labor has opened the doors for numerous human rights violations around the world. But we shouldn't do deals with countries b/c of their human rights record? I can see the cognitive dissonance building. This usually doesn't end well.

Devils Pakistani advocate. It gave us affordable goods helps businesses of all sizes and provides those places with income they would not otherwise have

 

[larsIU]

Devils Pakistani advocate. It gave us affordable goods helps businesses of all sizes and provides those places with income they would not otherwise have

Sure, but at the expense of Americans. In a sense. Of course we got cheaper prices. And fast fashion and all the hell that has wrought.

I mean, the genie's not going back in the bottle. At this point we should just throw our ****ing weight around. Basing our trade policy on human rights syncophancy is cool but only if everybody is playing by the same rules. Kinda why Kyoto/Paris accords were always bound to fail. China/India/Pakistan/Vietnam won't play by the same rules. And we won't force them to either.

So here we are. We need to figure out Taiwan. It's of strategic importance.

 

[BradStevens]

We told you the pergola was dumb. One of the best time to sit in the back patio is when you have a nice summer rain. Ain’t doing that with a fake roof.

I have a front porch for that. Complete with a swinging bench seat porch swing.

Now I want my godddamn pergola!

 

[mcmurtry66]

Sure, but at the expense of Americans. In a sense. Of course we got cheaper prices. And fast fashion and all the hell that has wrought.

I mean, the genie's not going back in the bottle. At this point we should just throw our ****ing weight around. Basing our trade policy on human rights syncophancy is cool but only if everybody is playing by the same rules. Kinda why Kyoto/Paris accords were always bound to fail. China/India/Pakistan/Vietnam won't play by the same rules. And we won't force them to either.

So here we are. We need to figure out Taiwan. It's of strategic importance.

i think at the expense of americans may or may not be true. the memes or gifs or whatever they are called with fat american men sitting sewing at cut and sew factories is probably true. i'm not sure we'd ever have the labor to sate our consumerism for products made in china vietnam pakistan etc. much of why china can do it is the size of their labor pool

 

[All4You]

Now I want my godddamn pergola!

Pergola makes about as much sense as...

 

[BradStevens]

Pergola makes about as much sense as...

I could never do this under that:

 

[mcmurtry66]

I could never do this under that:

cant. stop. laughing.

 

[larsIU]

i think at the expense of americans may or may not be true. the memes or gifs or whatever they are called with fat american men sitting sewing at cut and sew factories is probably true. i'm not sure we'd ever have the labor to sate our consumerism for products made in china vietnam pakistan etc. much of why china can do it is the size of their labor pool

Oh I agree. Listened to a podcast discussion between Mike Rowe and Dan Carlin. Great listen. But the sheer number of manufacturing jobs open right now, trades jobs, etc. Millions. We can't even fill those? How the **** are we bringing manufacturing back (while cutting legal and illegal immigration) when no Americans (especially men) want these jobs NOW?

there's literally millions of American men wasting away b/c they aren't looking for work. How do we fix that? Blame drugs, video games, manchildishness, whatever. But this started when the factories left. We have an underclass in this country and we aren't really helping them at this point other than throgh government programs.

Our economy and its prospertity should be of strategic importance. A bunch of dudes sitting at home on their computers bitching online with bots isn't helpful. We're in a tough spot.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Oh I agree. Listened to a podcast discussion between Mike Rowe and Dan Carlin. Great listen. But the sheer number of manufacturing jobs open right now, trades jobs, etc. Millions. We can't even fill those? How the **** are we bringing manufacturing back (while cutting legal and illegal immigration) when no Americans (especially men) want these jobs NOW?

there's literally millions of American men wasting away b/c they aren't looking for work. How do we fix that? Blame drugs, video games, manchildishness, whatever. But this started when the factories left. We have an underclass in this country and we aren't really helping them at this point other than throgh government programs.

Our economy and its propertity should be of strategic importance. A bunch of dudes sitting at home on their computers bitching online with bots isn't helpful. We're in a tough spot.

agreed

incidentally the soundtrack of my life is ray hudson taylor swift and mike rowe
my games
my music and
my stories

 

[larsIU]

agreed

incidentally the soundtrack of my life is ray hudson taylor swift and mike rowe
my games
my music and
my stories

I've got meetings all afternoon. No spoilers on United backdooring their way into Champion's League

 

[mcmurtry66]

I've got meetings all afternoon. No spoilers on United backdooring their way into Champion's League

i have a fcking meeting too. that i literally can't reschedule. not watching it either. blows

 

[All4You]

agreed

incidentally the soundtrack of my life is ray hudson taylor swift and mike rowe
my games
my music and
my stories

The start of the invasion, and the highlight of our childhoods. It's been all downhill from there...



Damn you Ron Popiel!

 

[hoosboot]

You've got a point. Be nice to express it without the sarcasm, here, though.

Unless you're buidling a pergola. Then be as sarcastic as you want.

I've never understood the "if we don't do the right thing all the time, we should just forget ever thinking about trying to do the right thing" train of thought. You wouldn't tell your kid to not stand up to a bully in the future when the opportunity arises because some other time the bully had two friends with him and your kid was certain to get their ass kicked.

The world is complicated and full of situations where it's impossible to have all of the information you might like to have. It would be awesome if we could have a Colin the Chicken dossier for all of our decisions though.

 

[BradStevens]

Oh I agree. Listened to a podcast discussion between Mike Rowe and Dan Carlin. Great listen.

It was really good.

Would love to hang out and talk with those two with a case of beer. Under a pergola on a mild summer day.

 

[BradStevens]

The start of the invasion, and the highlight of our childhoods. It's been all downhill from there...

View embedded media

Damn you Ron Popiel!

https://reverb.com/item/45503998-vintage-1980-mr-microphone-1283-ronco-wireless-mic-in-original-box-w-stand

 

[BradStevens]

I've never understood the "if we don't do the right thing all the time, we should just forget ever thinking about trying to do the right thing" train of thought. You wouldn't tell your kid to not stand up to a bully in the future when the opportunity arises because some other time the bully had two friends with him and your kid was certain to get their ass kicked.

The world is complicated and full of situations where it's impossible to have all of the information you might like to have. It would be awesome if we could have a Colin the Chicken dossier for all of our decisions though.

View embedded media

With respect to child labor, though, we do have all the information we'd like. That's the problem. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

But I like your observation--there just might not be a way to go through life in a morally "pure" (which I would probably reduce to "consistent") way. You have to pick the lesser of evils quite a lot, which is demoralizing when you are raised to believe you can stand on the side of righteousness and good all the time.

 

[hoosboot]

With respect to child labor, though, we do have all the information we'd like. That's the problem. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

But I like your observation--there just might not be a way to go through life in a morally "pure" (which I would probably reduce to "consistent") way. You have to pick the lesser of evils quite a lot, which is demoralizing when you are raised to believe you can stand on the side of righteousness and good all the time.

I certainly don't have all of the information on every product I might want to buy. I certainly could spend my every waking moment attempting to get all of the details about where it came from (hence, Colin the Chicken), but then I wouldn't have any time to make any of the money that enables me to buy the thing. So, we do the best we can when we can.

Agree with your observation that we have to pick the lesser of evils quite a lot. And we have to understand when we are positioned to make certain decisions and when we aren't. It is attractive to believe that there's any purity in the world, but life definitely disabuses you of that notion.

 

[larsIU]

With respect to child labor, though, we do have all the information we'd like. That's the problem. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

But I like your observation--there just might not be a way to go through life in a morally "pure" (which I would probably reduce to "consistent") way. You have to pick the lesser of evils quite a lot, which is demoralizing when you are raised to believe you can stand on the side of righteousness and good all the time.

We're told (or we used to be) to separate the art from teh artist. Why can't we separate the TV from the authoritarian regime in charge of the children producing same?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I have a front porch for that. Complete with a swinging bench seat porch swing.

Now I want my godddamn pergola!

I took on a 15' x 40' Florida room side job today. Want on the calendar in mid Sept?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Pergola makes about as much sense as...

SH$T up !!! Pergolas are great !!

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Trump's foreign policy shift, as outlined in his speech in the Middle East, foregoes moral judgments of foreign regimes in favor of trade and deal making. He made a point to contrast his vision with the neocon ideas of planting fledgling democracies into the in the Middle East, with the idea that democracy would radiate outwards, once that region saw a functioning, vibrant democracy. Maybe the neocons got it wrong, and the culture of these nations need to change through trade and access to wealth? (Not that that last sentence is motivating Trump's view--he's more about American interests uber alles, I'd guess).

I see two historical problems with this notion: (1) the US kinda already tried this, dealing with dictators in the hopes of combatting the Soviet Union. The backlash was arguably the Iranian Revolution and 9/11. (2) Many of these nations, like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, are already very wealthy through their oil money. Yet they've concentrated that wealth in monarchies and still have a problem with fundamentalist Islam.

Trump declares the 'neocon' era over

President Donald Trump has a vision of a "great transformation" in the Middle East. But it's not the transformation that American leaders have talked

reason.com

Understanding Trump: a new doctrine for foreign policy without nuisance

For over a hundred days, every pundit and columnist has tried to decipher Donald Trump’s foreign policy strategy. After sifting through the reports and the presidential social media posts…

brusselssignal.eu

https://www.npr.org/2025/05/16/nx-s1-5398082/trump-announces-major-middle-east-foreign-policy-moves-many-sidestepping-israel

View embedded media

EDIT/REQUEST: This is a broad topic of foreign policy and a potential historic shift. It'd be nice if people could discuss that, instead of Trump this/Biden that, Dems/MAGA are stupid evil, etc. Please try to focus on IDEAS and posts, not politicians or posters.

Excellent thread starter. Thought provoking and it has provoked me to think about it.

Broad strokes reaction.

US diplomacy and domestic policy, for the last fifty or sixty years or so, has been largely driven by the oppressor/ oppressed framing. We use different words and phrases for this, but we always come back to the same driving force. We have habitually and instinctively identified the good guys and bad guys, assign morality to one side or the other, and then legislate and conduct foreign affairs accordingly.

This doesn’t describe Trumps world view. Trump is transactional. He begins his view of politics and diplomacy as a series of transactions. Deal making will push the oppressed/ oppressor dichotomy to second place. In other words Trump sees business and commerce as a way to achieve unity and cooperation and then the oppressed/oppressor dichotomy will take care of itself. Previously, we were driven by the notion that solving the moral implications of oppression and then commerce and cooperation will come.

As I said, broad strokes. There is a lot of . . .ahem . . .nuance at the margins and blending of these broad strokes.

When Trump keeps saying, “success will bring us together” he really means a robust economic success.

 

[UncleMark]

Excellent thread starter. Thought provoking and it has provoked me to think about it.

Broad strokes reaction.

US diplomacy and domestic policy, for the last fifty or sixty years or so, has been largely driven by the oppressor/ oppressed framing. We use different words and phrases for this, but we always come back to the same driving force. We have habitually and instinctively identified the good guys and bad guys, assign morality to one side or the other, and then legislate and conduct foreign affairs accordingly.

This doesn’t describe Trumps world view. Trump is transactional. He begins his view of politics and diplomacy as a series of transactions. Deal making will push the oppressed/ oppressor dichotomy to second place. In other words Trump sees business and commerce as a way to achieve unity and cooperation and then the oppressed/oppressor dichotomy will take care of itself. Previously, we were driven by the notion that solving the moral implications of oppression and then commerce and cooperation will come.

As I said, broad strokes. There is a lot of . . .ahem . . .nuance at the margins and blending of these broad strokes.

When Trump keeps saying, “success will bring us together” he really means a robust economic success.

In this framing, we become the economic oppressor.

 

[BradStevens]

I took on a 15' x 40' Florida room side job today. Want on the calendar in mid Sept?

Yes.

 

[BradStevens]

In this framing, we become the economic oppressor.

But seriously, do we have to be? Do you think we'd be the economic oppressor even if we cut a deal that isn't backed by an implied threat of force? Are we economically oppressing any countries in the Middle East now?