I have no problem agreeing to disagree. As some have mentioned, from center to LT have less concerns and some believe there should not be as much worry in those three positions. That leaves 2 of the 5 in question. In my thinking, one more recruit increases the chances of a hit in the two remaining positions, which might be big. Yes it is a chance but one additional recruit should not hurt.
So Who Are We Still Recruiting at the Safety Position?
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I have no problem agreeing to disagree. As some have mentioned, from center to LT have less concerns and some believe there should not be as much worry in those three positions. That leaves 2 of the 5 in question. In my thinking, one more recruit increases the chances of a hit in the two remaining positions, which might be big. Yes it is a chance but one additional recruit should not hurt.
17 or 18 scholarship linemen is plenty, and CTA has already said that he hopes to add a transfer or two this spring.
I understand your point and half agree, half don’t. It’s happened before that good recruits have come to Indiana after years of losing. Jason Spriggs chose Indiana over Mac schools. Tevin Coleman chose Indiana over playing Safety somewhere else. Darius Latham chose to stay at home over going to Wisconsin and freezing his tail off. So that’s where I half disagree. If I recall Zack Shaw was the first 4 Star IU had since Benjarvis Green-Ellis who was a 5-star? And both chose Indiana. You’re going to have a pool of recruits who for one reason or another want to come to Indiana even if they have a losing record for multiple years. There will be other factors in a players decision making.
Where we agree 100% is that it will limit your pool of recruits. You’ll automatically lose a portion of guys because they’ll look at the record, so you BETTER GET IT RIGHT out of the recruits who do want to come to your school. That’s how you build a program. Kansas State has been in that position, Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan State, an Northwestern. You just better have a coach who is a great talent evaluator and can get guys to come in who are better than their offer list (E.G. Spriggs).
Lastly, when it comes to the line, I think that it’s possible that the line could take 3-4 years to develop, and they could realistically only take 3 lineman in this class. How can both of those things be true? Conventional wisdom says they’d get as many lineman in as possible, and so I fully understand that logic and think it’s rational to assume that they’d stockpile new lineman quickly, but the issue is that we are returning a ton of guys, so it would bias the roster depth at offensive line in the future, and it could be an issue 3-4 years down the road at another position. If we took fewer LB’s, or DE’s, or didn’t take TJ ivy at TE, in a few years we’d be having the conversation we’re having about the OL at a different position. So if we are bringing a lot of guys back it’s possible that we’d be forced to recruit other positions to build depth for the future, and wait a year to really start building the OL depth.
You can see on film though that the OL is an issue to the extent that it could hold the defense back for multiple years. Maybe they get better next year and we go bowling? Maybe they don’t. There’s a level of a football IQ and coheseviniss that lineman need, to go along with toughness. Nick Linder seems to have it all of those traits on film and having played through injury, but its an issue at other positions all across the line. So that’s why some of us believe that it could be a multi year process to get this guys rolling to the extent that we have a line that could realistically take us bowling. You need a mature line, a smart line, and a tough line, so you want redshirt juniors and seniors across the board on your line who have all of those traits. Our current veterans haven’t displayed those traits, so we could be looking out into the future to find that. Besides Linder of course. I think that he can contribute right away.
I'm not going to say that we will be world-beaters on the O-line next year, but I think there will be a noticeable improvement. We have a lot of guys coming back. A year older, a year smarter, a year of playing together. It's reasonable to anticipate that they will be bigger and stronger. Hopefully, we can redshirt all of our new guys, especially with Lindner in the mix. It's also worth noting that several of our O-line guys from last year have two or even three years remaining.
I would like to see following o-line lineup.
C.Cronk 6'5" 305 LT
W. Martin 6'3 310 LG
N.Linder 6'3" 300 C
J. Harris 6'3" 360 RG (think he's better suited for the Oline if he is struggling with weight)
C. Jones 6'8" 370 RT
B.Knight 6'5" 305 TE
Maybe use someone like D. Love as a backup blocking TE (need to utilize his 6'7" 300 lb frame somewhere before all his eligibility is gone). Would love to see the staff use one of our backup big uglies as a fullback in goal line situations like Corsos elephant I formation or maybe B Knight in that role.
Move Ryan Watercutter back to LB. He was a heady player at that position in high school and the spring game a couple of years ago and we are short on experienced guys at that position. P.Hendershot,TJ Ivy and A.Dorris need to step up and be the pass catchers at TE.
Just some food for thought. I realize that the staff has a whole lot more experience at these decisions than me. LOL.Would just love to see some creativity from our coaching staff.
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C.Cronk 6'5" 305 LT
W. Martin 6'3 310 LG
N.Linder 6'3" 300 C
J. Harris 6'3" 360 RG (think he's better suited for the Oline if he is struggling with weight)
C. Jones 6'8" 370 RT
B.Knight 6'5" 305 TE
Maybe use someone like D. Love as a backup blocking TE (need to utilize his 6'7" 300 lb frame somewhere before all his eligibility is gone). Would love to see the staff use one of our backup big uglies as a fullback in goal line situations like Corsos elephant I formation or maybe B Knight in that role.
Move Ryan Watercutter back to LB. He was a heady player at that position in high school and the spring game a couple of years ago and we are short on experienced guys at that position. P.Hendershot,TJ Ivy and A.Dorris need to step up and be the pass catchers at TE.
Just some food for thought. I realize that the staff has a whole lot more experience at these decisions than me. LOL.Would just love to see some creativity from our coaching staff.
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If Watercutter can get up in the 240+ range he might be able to block more effectively.
Hate to see him moved from TE just due to the fact that he seems to be the one guy in the team who actually decides that the ball is his and his alone if it gets any where remotely close to him. That's the attitude all of our receivers should have!
He's a pit bull when that ball is up for grabs. I'd hate to lose that type of receiver to be 4th in line in the LB rotation...
I like your idea of using Love and perhaps another OT as blocking TE's on first and second down...
Hate to see him moved from TE just due to the fact that he seems to be the one guy in the team who actually decides that the ball is his and his alone if it gets any where remotely close to him. That's the attitude all of our receivers should have!
He's a pit bull when that ball is up for grabs. I'd hate to lose that type of receiver to be 4th in line in the LB rotation...
I like your idea of using Love and perhaps another OT as blocking TE's on first and second down...
If you want some creativity we should try to bring Canada back home for a season as an Offensive Analyst or Quality Control guy... He'll be back on someone's staff soon but we my as well take advantage of his availability while it lasts...
I like that lineup. That makes sense. Man, I was hoping harris would pan out at DT though. That man could shut down an entire rushing attack. But you’re right, if he’s at 360 who may not be agile enough, and may not have the conditioning to be as effective on the D-line. But I thought he started out OKAY during the season, and he had a pretty good spring game.
D.Love is puzzling because they’ve used everyone but him over the course of the years, but he seems to have the best frame. At 6’7” he reminds me of a spitting image of Camiel, so maybe he could be a blocking TE. That’s a creative way of getting him in the mix. You’d imagine that he could even push for a starting job by this point in his career.
Knight at TE would be a huge advantage, but I don’t think that would require Watercutter to make a position switch. He made some plays last year as a pass catcher. Up to this point, he’s produced more than Dorris, so IVY and Watercutter may be the pass catching TE’s. I wouldn’t argue with Knight at TE. Knight had his best season as a TE. He seems to be lean/struggle keeping up weight too, so I’m sure he could drop to 285 and be an effective blocking TE. He can go out for a pass occasionally because he has decent hands (TD in the bucket game a few years ago).
You may not be a coach, but your idea makes a hell of a lot of sense. Get the best guys, and bigger bodies on the field. Utilize a ton of them. That make up for a lot of holes on the O-line.
I like Harris at DT. He looked good early prior to his injury. Can't wait to see how well he does after 8 months with Ballou...
Basically there is going to be BB and AB: Before Ballou and After Ballou.
Hoping we see huge progress on both lines where IU needs to be able to compete more against the big boys going forward!
Hoping we see huge progress on both lines where IU needs to be able to compete more against the big boys going forward!
Harris is not moving to the OL.
He's a contender for the state title in hurdles (track) this year. I bet he'll be in great shape when he arrives, though gaining weight doesn't equate to fast track times, so he may need to start bulking up after track season.
This will be very interesting to see where he picks. So far, IU is the only place he has used a visit to.
Yup, but pretty hard for Florida kids to turn down FSU , I fear.
That would be a big line but that's not going to happen. Harris isn't suited to play OL, he's best suited for DT and that is where he wills stay. Knight is probably your opening day RG at this point.
It's not as easy as you think to just move guys to different positions on a whim. About 5% of all college players can just flip a position and not miss a beat. So if Harris moved this season, we wouldn't expect much until next year at the earliest.
Also Ryan Watercutter isn't fast enough or agile enough to be a LB in the 4-2 scheme. Hopefully Hendershot is healthy this season. Ivy is a true frosh so maybe we can get something from him. Dorris should have never been recruited and signed.
Maybe he has the frame to do that. But I haven’t seen anything about him that jumps out as him being a great blocker. Jake reed made the move, and bulked up, but he also came in as a Blocking Tight End who was a glorified lineman. Dorris is a totally different type of player. If I’m not mistaken, Bonner came in as a blocking tight end type, so I think it’s more likely that he makes the transition to OL. Dorris seems like a balanced tight end, but not a Jake Reed/Danny Friend type
Totally agree here. Ballou gets to ND and in the first year the OL gets the best OL of the year award. Coincidence? IDK but were about to find out.
The other equation after giving the new offensive staff a pass this year IS no changes. So second year together and we didn't really lose that much and nobody on the OL. Should start to see some results. Our OL coach has been around a long time and has good track record. I expect much better next year.
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I understand that sentiment too, but we already have brought in a host of DE's. I don't get it, & the more I think about it the more it concerns me.This is the 2nd year in a row we've tried bringing in yet ANOTHER DE at the 11th hour, last year it was Roundtree, who they referred to as our top target, but we didn't NEED a DE at that point & we don't need one now. Hell, as far as that goes, I don't think we need a safety either. I hesitate to question our recruiting considering how well we've done overall, but I can't help but be concerned that our priorities are out of balance because the #'s just don't add up, or should I say they add up to too much already!
Not trying to be seriously argumentive but having seen Roundtree play I can tell you unequivocally that he would have been in our two deep rotation last fall. I should wish we had snagged him.
In my highly esteemed opinion (
esteemed by me ), I consider the DE position the most important slot on the D when it comes to pass defense. It's tough for those highly rated QB's to make plays downfield when they are flat on their back or running for their life. In my opinion, if you're going to go "heavy numbers" at any one slot I'd pick DE first with OT a close 2nd. Now you have "my opinion" on the topic...
We already have heavy #'s at that spot though, & if we wanted Roundtree so badly we should have not taken so many other DE's before him--that's my devil's advocate response to your take. & yes--I thought he was impressive this year as well, HOWEVER, we cannot say he's better than the DE's we snagged in that class--because ours didn't play last year! We don't know how Bryant, Ziemba, &/or Reese stackup because we haven't seen them. Illinois had no choice but to play the true Frosh DE. I'm not so sure Roundtree would have been in our 2 deep last year. Maybe, maybe not.Not trying to be seriously argumentive but having seen Roundtree play I can tell you unequivocally that he would have been in our two deep rotation last fall. I should wish we had snagged him.
In my highly esteemed opinion (
In my opinion, if you're going to go "heavy numbers" at any one slot I'd pick DE first with OT a close 2nd. Now you have "my opinion" on the topic...
I saw Z play and he shows promise.
If our Redshirt guys were ready at least one of them would have played...
Guess we just have different perspectives on the topic.
I'm amazed and flabbergasted that you didn't just go with "my opinion"
If our Redshirt guys were ready at least one of them would have played...
Guess we just have different perspectives on the topic.
I'm amazed and flabbergasted that you didn't just go with "my opinion"
I agree. These guys coming in are freak athletes though. It’s hard to pass on these guys because it’s the best DE class I can remember IU ever bringing in. If it turns into Ohio State caliber depth (5 guys going to the draft this year I think at DE), then it’s worth taking these guys and stockpiling the position. Ohio States secondary was fairly weak, but it didn’t matter. That DL could make anyone look good. If I had the binary choice of choosing between stockpiling a line, and getting DT’s and DE’s I’m taking the lineman. We will probably rotate double digit lineman this fall. Given our DB situation, we NEED the pass rush. If these guys can add any depth, it’d be great.
Nice.I saw Z play and he shows promise.
If our Redshirt guys were ready at least one of them would have played...
Guess we just have different perspectives on the topic.
I'm amazed and flabbergasted that you didn't just go with "my opinion"
I know you and I keep beating this thing back and forth 84...Most of the recruits you mentioned at the top were 3 stars coming in and left as great players because they were developed. Therefore it wasn't like after years of losing with the same coach suddenly 4 stars started popping. I have ever seen that scenario anywhere.
I've argued with almost all of you about the 3-4 year timeline and heres why. Greg Frey coached these guys and built them into a damn good line and proved it with Coleman and Howard. I understand we lost some guys so 2016 we were down and 2017. When we lost Frey everyone on this board went into meltdown mode. Why in the world would Frey build such a damn good thing and just let it go to hell?? That makes absolutely no sense at all. So the argument we keep having is these guys aren't good enough? These are Frey's guys so when all of you say 3-4 years I just shake my head. Was Frey setting himself up for failure? I highly doubt that. They are just young and need some development. If I'm wrong and it takes that 3 to 4 years then Frey wasn't that good and the recruits he brought in aren't either.
Bring in Hiller a veteran OL coach with over 20 years experience and excellent results at all his stops. We also have Ballou who will not only have these guys in shape but instill an attitude. So again I think 3 to4 years from now is a little too long of a window. This is the second and or 3rd year for those that redshirted that these guys will be together. They will have another together after this year as we won't lose anyone. This year we should see some great progress. Next year we should be world beaters. jmho
I think you raise an interesting point, and I won’t pretend to be smart enough to know the answer. 1. I think that Frey was a good coach. Good motivator, good details, and CKW had a good plan the first couple of years in terms of play calling that would help the o-line.
But I think you’re overweighting Frey’s development skills, and underweighting that they struck gold with some of those early recruits like Spriggs. Here’s why, and it’s something that didn’t dawn on me until recently. Spriggs and Feeney played unusually well as Freshman... If you go back and think about it, this was one of the highest scoring offenses in 2012 with a backup QB and Freshman QB splitting time. Coleman wasn’t coleman yet as a freshman. Yet the line still played unusually well. It couldn’t have been all played development, because they had been on campus for 4 months. Feeney gave up like 1 sack or something unusually low for a true freshman, and Spriggs was similar. Matte wasn’t Wilsons recruit and played well that year. And eckert and Bernard Taylor were only sophomores. That line was so young, that it couldn’t have been player development because they weren’t in the system long enough to be developed. We had 2 freshman and 2 sophomores. What if... Wilson just really struck gold with his first two recruiting classes in terms of the lineman, and guys like Eckert (before injury), Spriggs, Feeney, and Taylor (before injury) were just exceptionally good? Because when you come in as freshman and sophomores and play that well, there’s more than coaching factoring in. You have some level of skills that are also unusual, particularly on the offensive line which is the hardest position to play as a freshman.
We got spoiled with those first couple of classes and may have assumed that the trend would continue. Again, Wilson and Frey were good offensive coaches, but they were human too. I don’t think that it’s unreasonable that they slipped in recruiting and had honest misses. Because when you look at their first two classes they had unusual level of success in finding 2-3 stars, and those guys coming in fast and contributing.
