SEALs who served with “evil” Gallagher rip Trump for pardoning him

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

The results of the "War On Terror" speak for themselves. I'm amazed that someone would go the route of Muslim extremists. Speaking of broad strokes. Says a lot about one's world view. Further, that does nothing to prevent the lone wolf attacks we have witnessed within our shores. Oh btw, most of the recent ones were not committed by Muslim Extremists.

You’re approaching the point of not being worthy of discussion with your complete inability to see the forest for the trees. Maybe it’s because you’re young. Maybe it’s because you’re exposed to the Iranian side more than most. Maybe it’s because you’re a blind partisan. I don’t know. But you’re way off.

The GWOT has accomplished significant things:

1. Al-Qaeda, who attacked us and killed 3000 Americans, is no longer combat capable
2. Iraq has been relieved of the burden of Saddam. Now, they still clearly have a long way to go but our revolution took nearly 40 years before fully breaking free of the British. But you think it’s all been a failure. Cute.
3. No major attacks (anywhere near the scale of 9/11) of Islamic terror in the US borders have occurred from foreigners

We can talk about ramifications all day long. But it’s impossible with you because your brush is the width of a piece of drywall.

 

[toastedbread]

You’re approaching the point of not being worthy of discussion with your complete inability to see the forest for the trees.

Touche. It's humorous when on one hand you agree that we should not take anything this admin says at face value, yet you have seemingly ate up whatever they are selling about this incident.

Iraq has been relieved of the burden of Saddam. Now, they still clearly have a long way to go but our revolution took nearly 40 years before fully breaking free of the British.

Are you asserting that Iraq is better off today than under Saddam?

And what risk to the US did Saddam pose, now that we know he did not possess WMDs.

We have the capability to eliminate threats without engaging in prolonged regime change. That's the main issue I take with our approach to the ME.

On the internal security front, I would argue that's the result of strong intelligence operations and a bit of luck, rather than the War On Terror as conducted by the military. The whack a mole strategy does not work. Afghanistan is the classic case.

Edit: And I'm not even getting into the staggering costs of our misadventures both in treasure and blood.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Touche. It's humorous when on one hand you agree that we should not take anything this admin says at face value, yet you have seemingly ate up whatever they are selling about this incident.



Are you asserting that Iraq is better off today than under Saddam?

And what risk to the US did Saddam pose, now that we know he did not possess WMDs.

We have the capability to eliminate threats without engaging in prolonged regime change. That's the main issue I take with our approach to the ME.

On the internal security front, I would argue that's the result of strong intelligence operations and a bit of luck, rather than the War On Terror as conducted by the military. The whack a mole strategy does not work. Afghanistan is the classic case.

Edit: And I'm not even getting into the staggering costs of our misadventures both in treasure and blood.

With your first comment, I’m out. Good day.

 

[hoosboot]

Isn’t that the correct answer?

I don't think so. There has been threats from Muslim "extremism" (and all other types of "extremism") for centuries. I'm skeptical that we have the mandate to do whatever we want until whenever we want.

 

[UncleMark]

I don't think so. There has been threats from Muslim "extremism" (and all other types of "extremism") for centuries. I'm skeptical that we have the mandate to do whatever we want until whenever we want.

And if all else fails, you can invoke 9-11. That can cover everything, even if it's false.

 

[DrHoops]

Ranger, when you speak about anything military I listen keenly. I do have to quibble a bit with you about Al Qaeda no longer being "combat ready". Is hijacking 4 airliners really proving combat readiness? And with the demise of Al Qaeda, we get ISIS in its place who most definitely is combat ready. What I mean to say is, what difference is it what they call themselves?

With regards to Iraq, there's absolutely no way to know what will become of it in the future. It may be that a new strongman arises like in Egypt. Will it be good or bad, we have no idea.

To the "Islamic terror in our border", weren't the Boston Marathon bombers Islamic terrorists (3 dead, 183 injured)? San Bernardino shooting (14 dead, 22 injured). The Orlando nightclub shooting (49 dead 53 injured) The shooter, pledged allegiance to ISIS by specifically calling police and journalists several times during the incident claiming so. The car attack in Manhattan where the driver with an ISIS flag in his car killed 8 and injured 12. There were more that were planned where the perpetrators were arrested or killed before they were able to put their plans into motion such as a planned attack on a "draw Mohammed" contest in Texas.

Am I happy this guy is dead? Yes. I most definitely am. I just listened to a podcast by a professor of Middle-eastern studies at MIT. Soleimani was definitely an architect of many bad things. He had a 90% approval rating in Iran and there were rumors of a career in politics next. My only hesitations are two things. 1. Iran's populace rallies behind the government, given Soleimani's popularity. 2) Iran has a hell of a lot more resources at their disposal than some terrorist organization funded by a few wealthy Saudi sheikhs.

You’re approaching the point of not being worthy of discussion with your complete inability to see the forest for the trees. Maybe it’s because you’re young. Maybe it’s because you’re exposed to the Iranian side more than most. Maybe it’s because you’re a blind partisan. I don’t know. But you’re way off.

The GWOT has accomplished significant things:

1. Al-Qaeda, who attacked us and killed 3000 Americans, is no longer combat capable
2. Iraq has been relieved of the burden of Saddam. Now, they still clearly have a long way to go but our revolution took nearly 40 years before fully breaking free of the British. But you think it’s all been a failure. Cute.
3. No major attacks (anywhere near the scale of 9/11) of Islamic terror in the US borders have occurred from foreigners

We can talk about ramifications all day long. But it’s impossible with you because your brush is the width of a piece of drywall.

 

[toastedbread]

With regards to Iraq, there's absolutely no way to know what will become of it in the future. It may be that a new strongman arises like in Egypt. Will it be good or bad, we have no idea.

I think that's a best case scenario and probably a pipe dream. I can understand that its painful for people who served to recognize that their efforts were in vain. Iraq is not in a better place today and the evidence that it's heading in a positive direction is lacking.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Ranger, when you speak about anything military I listen keenly. I do have to quibble a bit with you about Al Qaeda no longer being "combat ready". Is hijacking 4 airliners really proving combat readiness? And with the demise of Al Qaeda, we get ISIS in its place who most definitely is combat ready. What I mean to say is, what difference is it what they call themselves?

With regards to Iraq, there's absolutely no way to know what will become of it in the future. It may be that a new strongman arises like in Egypt. Will it be good or bad, we have no idea.

To the "Islamic terror in our border", weren't the Boston Marathon bombers Islamic terrorists (3 dead, 183 injured)? San Bernardino shooting (14 dead, 22 injured). The Orlando nightclub shooting (49 dead 53 injured) The shooter, pledged allegiance to ISIS by specifically calling police and journalists several times during the incident claiming so. The car attack in Manhattan where the driver with an ISIS flag in his car killed 8 and injured 12. There were more that were planned where the perpetrators were arrested or killed before they were able to put their plans into motion such as a planned attack on a "draw Mohammed" contest in Texas.

Am I happy this guy is dead? Yes. I most definitely am. I just listened to a podcast by a professor of Middle-eastern studies at MIT. This guy was definitely an architect of many bad things. He had a 90% approval rating in Iran and there were rumors of a career in politics next. My only hesitations are two things. 1. Iran's populace rallies behind the government, given Soleimani's popularity. 2) Iran has a hell of a lot more resources at their disposal than some terrorist organization funded by a few wealthy Saudi sheikhs.

These are fair and valid points. Stopping locals that pledge fealty to a cause will always be very difficult to detect and stop.

Al-Qaeda was an existential fighting force in 2001 and before. They no longer are. We also have systems in place now, that required boots-on-the-ground human intel to form, to help detect these networks as they spawn. Doesn’t mean we’ll catch each one, but we are definitely smarter about the enemy for having had so many people in theater.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I think that's a best case scenario and probably a pipe dream. I can understand that its painful for people who served to recognize that their efforts were in vain. Iraq is not in a better place today and the evidence that it's heading in a positive direction is lacking.

Any metric proving otherwise would be shot down by you anyways. You seem to forget the most simple metric of all: Saddam and the Ba’ath Party are no longer in power and killing its own people. That in and of itself is a huge step for the Iraqis, except the Sunnis - a small minority.

Unless you’re a “these people need a dictator to rule them to protect them from themselves” guy, you’re ridiculously naive to think that they don’t at least have a fighting chance to improve their fate. They never had one before. Eliminating Iran’s power over them continues to help them break free.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I don't think so. There has been threats from Muslim "extremism" (and all other types of "extremism") for centuries. I'm skeptical that we have the mandate to do whatever we want until whenever we want.

Your last sentence eliminates any room for discussion. There have not been intercontinental threats from Muslim extremists (not sure why you put it in quotes) for centuries - there have been for 50 years and only now do we have the will and know-how to deal with it.

 

[toastedbread]

Any metric proving otherwise would be shot down by you anyways. You seem to forget the most simple metric of all: Saddam and the Ba’ath Party are no longer in power and killing its own people. That in and of itself is a huge step for the Iraqis, except the Sunnis - a small minority.

Unless you’re a “these people need a dictator to rule them to protect them from themselves” guy, you’re ridiculously naive to think that they don’t at least have a fighting chance to improve their fate. They never had one before. Eliminating Iran’s power over them continues to help them break free.

We've replaced a dictator with chaos. Chaos that gave rise to ISIS and a whole bunch of other bad actors. If that's an improvement, then I'm afraid we won't find any common ground. The country appears more divided and chaotic than ever. Yes, a dictator is preferable to chaos imo.

 

[hoosboot]

Your last sentence eliminates any room for discussion. There have not been intercontinental threats from Muslim extremists (not sure why you put it in quotes) for centuries - there have been for 50 years and only now do we have the will and know-how to deal with it.

Well...what actually eliminates any room for discussion is your saying there is no room for discussion. It's a shame that you aren't willing to try to have one. Happy New Year.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Well...what actually eliminates any room for discussion is your saying there is no room for discussion. It's a shame that you aren't willing to try to have one. Happy New Year.

That wasn’t what I meant. I’m saying that using words like “let us do whatever we want when we want” aren’t where the goal posts are. At least not to me.

 

[DrHoops]

Again, I'm treading VERY lightly here because you're not only an expert, but you've been on the ground. I guess I worry that we're opening a brand new theater by dragging Iran (not just a proxy Iran) into an outright war.

Still, when the guy is in Iraq directing operations, he needs to be dealt with and I'm glad he's gone. Apparently there was another high ranking guy who was killed too. So, it's a good thing.

I hate the Middle East.

These are fair and valid points. Stopping locals that pledge fealty to a cause will always be very difficult to detect and stop.

Al-Qaeda was an existential fighting force in 2001 and before. They no longer are. We also have systems in place now, that required boots-on-the-ground human intel to form, to help detect these networks as they spawn. Doesn’t mean we’ll catch each one, but we are definitely smarter about the enemy for having had so many people in theater.

 

[UncleMark]

Apparently there was another high ranking guy who was killed too.

The commander of a Iran client Iraqi militia. Heck, this could have been nothing more than his annual review.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Again, I'm treading VERY lightly here because you're not only an expert, but you've been on the ground. I guess I worry that we're opening a brand new theater by dragging Iran (not just a proxy Iran) into an outright war.

Still, when the guy is in Iraq directing operations, he needs to be dealt with and I'm glad he's gone. Apparently there was another high ranking guy who was killed too. So, it's a good thing.

I hate the Middle East.

The “another high ranking” guy was an Iranian puppet that is widely believed to have been one of the masterminds of the Kuwait bombing in 1983. He also led the Iraqis against the Kurds when the Kurds were discussing independence.

Basically he was Iran’s man in Iraq.

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/W...-killed-in-US-airstrike-with-Soleimani-613268

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

The commander of a Iran client Iraqi militia. Heck, this could have been nothing more than his annual review.

He was QS’ guy in Iran. He was picking up his boss at the airport.

 

[Sope Creek]

Was your dad in the 15th Airborne?

Sorry, Bill, I missed your post.

No, he was not in the 15th Airborne.

I had to ask my mom what unit he was in . . . 544th, 4th Ferrying Division. He flew freight . . . and as a flight instructor taught recruits how to fly. Of course, he did what he was directed to do . . .

. . . He wouldn't talk about the war much, and he said it was because others did and sacrificed so much more than he did . . . he told us that their stories were the ones to listen to . . .

. . . one story he did tell was how he delivered the liquor to Malta for a meeting among Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin. He wouldn't reveal what volume of liquor he delivered or the relative proportions among the various types of liquor . . . in fact he never told us what types of liquor he had on board . . . .

 

[DrHoops]

Interesting. A friend of mine's father flew the C-47 (military version of the DC-3) into Greenland during the war. I don't know where the flights originated, though.

Sorry, Bill, I missed your post.

No, he was not in the 15th Airborne.

I had to ask my mom what unit he was in . . . 544th, 4th Ferrying Division. He flew freight . . . and as a flight instructor taught recruits how to fly. Of course, he did what he was directed to do . . .

. . . He wouldn't talk about the war much, and he said it was because others did and sacrificed so much more than he did . . . he told us that their stories were the ones to listen to . . .

. . . one story he did tell was how he delivered the liquor to Malta for a meeting among Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin. He wouldn't reveal what volume of liquor he delivered or the relative proportions among the various types of liquor . . . in fact he never told us what types of liquor he had on board . . . .

 

[Sope Creek]

Interesting. A friend of mine's father flew the C-47 (military version of the DC-3) into Greenland during the war. I don't know where the flights originated, though.

C-47 was the primary aircraft my dad also flew during WWII. He started out with Cummins flying a DC-3 in the early 60s, and by the time he retired in the 80s he was flying a Sabreliner . . . that looked a good bit like this one:

 

[DrHoops]

That's awesome. I'm sure he has some great stories. I've never seen a Sabreliner before. Interesting looking airplane.

I used to have a serious fear of flying and I used to read up on airplanes constantly. Eventually I conquered my fear of flying, but my fascination with airplanes remained. My desk is even made out of an old Cessna 152 wing. I even have an app on my phone to listen to Air Traffic Control. Yeah, I'm a nerd like that.

C-47 was the primary aircraft my dad also flew during WWII. He started out with Cummins flying a DC-3 in the early 60s, and by the time he retired in the 80s he was flying a Sabreliner . . . that looked a good bit like this one:

 

[Sope Creek]

That's awesome. I'm sure he has some great stories. I've never seen a Sabreliner before. Interesting looking airplane.

I used to have a serious fear of flying and I used to read up on airplanes constantly. Eventually I conquered my fear of flying, but my fascination with airplanes remained. My desk is even made out of an old Cessna 152 wing. I even have an app on my phone to listen to Air Traffic Control. Yeah, I'm a nerd like that.

Once dad came home from the airport and said that a doctor had landed his personal plane wheels up - i.e., directly on the belly of the plane - that day . . . and looked me square in the eye and said "that's why I don't want YOU in the cockpit of a plane . . . you're thinking about everything but what you're doing." 'Nuff said about my flying career . . . .

The doc's plane was still at the end of the tarmac a year later; he never even filed an insurance claim, much less got in it to fly again.

I remember the Sabreliner smelling like new leather all the time . . . I got to fly in it a few times on trips where there was an open seat. I recall an approach to Logan airport in Boston once when I was allowed to stand behind the cockpit . . . everybody thinks jets fly in a perfectly straight line, but I recall the nose of the plane bouncing around a bit on the approach, all the way up to when we made contact with the ground. It seemed like a puppet hanging from strings when it bounced like that. Dad said "nothing's happening", and shrugged my observation off.

Apparently Cummins' Sabreliner has been retired. They're using 3 Grumman 280s . . . and something called an Embraer regional jet for employee shuttles:

https://nbaa.org/membership/member-profiles/cummins/

 

[DrHoops]

Very interesting stories!

This is one of the most amazing recordings I've ever heard. The pilot died of a heart attack and this guy landed a King Air Super King with his family on board. He did have single engine experience, but had no idea how to fly it. Amazing to listen to ATC getting a pilot who knew the aircraft and helped him land teamed up to help him land. Still, the guy has ice in his veins.

Once dad came home from the airport and said that a doctor had landed his personal plane wheels up - i.e., directly on the belly of the plane - that day . . . and looked me square in the eye and said "that's why I don't want YOU in the cockpit of a plane . . . you're thinking about everything but what you're doing." 'Nuff said about my flying career . . . .

The doc's plane was still at the end of the tarmac a year later; he never even filed an insurance claim, much less got in it to fly again.

I remember the Sabreliner smelling like new leather all the time . . . I got to fly in it a few times on trips where there was an open seat. I recall an approach to Logan airport in Boston once when I was allowed to stand behind the cockpit . . . everybody thinks jets fly in a perfectly straight line, but I recall the nose of the plane bouncing around a bit on the approach, all the way up to when we made contact with the ground. It seemed like a puppet hanging from strings when it bounced like that. Dad said "nothing's happening", and shrugged my observation off.

Apparently Cummins' Sabreliner has been retired. They're using 3 Grumman 280s . . . and something called an Embraer regional jet for employee shuttles:

https://nbaa.org/membership/member-profiles/cummins/

 

[ElgenBoden]

Well, I'll let you take up the cause of putting in jail the people who started the war. Make your case against W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Connie and any others you feel are responsible. I won't stand in your way, and may support your efforts. Good luck.

Regarding Gallagher, I think all service members have to be accountable for their actions during war. If extensive punishment is necessary to maintain discipline and honor in the ranks, then extensive punishment should be implemented.

I don't understand any attitude that service members - or police or firefighters or nurses or doctors or lawyers or judges or anyone else in a position of trust - should be granted leniency because of their status or personal experiences/sacrifices. My dad - a major in the Army Air Corps in North Africa and Europe during WWII - always maintained that the service is the privilege, and the honor of serving is the honor service members are entitled to, and that the privilege and honor of serving deserve the respect and devotion of those serving . . . any special considerations beyond that undermine the effectiveness of the armed forces (and other professions of trust) and damages the country concomitantly.

My sense is that we, as a nation, crossed that line in response to 9/11. That may be the most insidious and enduring victories that OBL achieved . . . and is achieving still.

Trump's election and his pardon of Gallagher are symptoms of that achievement.

I understand what you're saying, but that country is dead.

It died when we found out Vietnam was all a lie, and the WWI and WWII justifications were equally paper thin.

My grandfathers both made great sacrifice in WWII but we must realise they didn't just make sacrifices, they were offered as a sacrifice.

In WWI it was so Zionist bankers didn't lose money, that caused WWII.

We had no cause to go into WWI and change the outcome. None. The deal Lord Balfour had with ole Redshield, guaranteed Palestinian zionism if the bankers could get the US to throw in.

The decision to allow the creation of the state of Israel has set the world on fire and it will never go away.

The crimes of these individual soldiers seem insignificant compared to the crimes of our elected leaders.

Lawrence of Arabia, got the Arabs to help the UK in WWI, overthrow the Ottomans. They were promised a unified Arab state in return.

Its all very complicated, but the entire 20th century myth has fallen apart.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I understand what you're saying, but that country is dead.

It died when we found out Vietnam was all a lie, and the WWI and WWII justifications were equally paper thin.

My grandfathers both made great sacrifice in WWII but we must realise they didn't just make sacrifices, they were offered as a sacrifice.

In WWI it was so Zionist bankers didn't lose money, that caused WWII.

We had no cause to go into WWI and change the outcome. None. The deal Lord Balfour had with ole Redshield, guaranteed Palestinian zionism if the bankers could get the US to throw in.

The decision to allow the creation of the state of Israel has set the world on fire and it will never go away.

The crimes of these individual soldiers seem insignificant compared to the crimes of our elected leaders.

Lawrence of Arabia, got the Arabs to help the UK in WWI, overthrow the Ottomans. They were promised a unified Arab state in return.

Its all very complicated, but the entire 20th century myth has fallen apart.

Jet fuel don’t melt steel!!!

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I understand what you're saying, but that country is dead.

It died when we found out Vietnam was all a lie, and the WWI and WWII justifications were equally paper thin.

My grandfathers both made great sacrifice in WWII but we must realise they didn't just make sacrifices, they were offered as a sacrifice.

In WWI it was so Zionist bankers didn't lose money, that caused WWII.

We had no cause to go into WWI and change the outcome. None. The deal Lord Balfour had with ole Redshield, guaranteed Palestinian zionism if the bankers could get the US to throw in.

The decision to allow the creation of the state of Israel has set the world on fire and it will never go away.

The crimes of these individual soldiers seem insignificant compared to the crimes of our elected leaders.

Lawrence of Arabia, got the Arabs to help the UK in WWI, overthrow the Ottomans. They were promised a unified Arab state in return.

Its all very complicated, but the entire 20th century myth has fallen apart.

Loon alert.

 

[T.M.P.]

In WWI it was so Zionist bankers didn't lose money,

lol ...

The "Zionist bankers", actually all bankers, made huge profit during ww1 while lending to the war powers.

You may need to adjust those antennae on your foil helmet.