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Russia-Ukraine war has begun

There’s a guy on YouTube called bald and bankrupt. He goes to shitty places all over the world and films. Just dropped his latest in Ukraine. He asks this old man when the war will end. He answers “they cannot find any compromise; it is impossible.” “I don’t have any hope.” “They don’t even listen to trump.”

I’m watching this stuff I do believe they, “they,” think of Biden as soft and trump tough. Not that it’s done any good really. Kiev other parts returning to some semblance of every day life
 
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Trump's "final offer" for peace requires Ukraine to accept Russian occupation​

Perusing through this, I can see why Ukraine is unwilling to go along with it. But I don't think it's the concession of territory.

That's pretty much unavoidable at this point. I hate it, I wish it wasn't where things stand. But it's where they've stood for a long time now. Absent direct foreign military intervention, Russia isn't going to be pushed back. If we want to talk about direct intervention, then we can talk about it. But I don't get the sense that the appetite for this exists here or in Europe.

I suspect that Ukraine's objection is this:

What Ukraine gets under Trump's proposal​
  1. "A robust security guarantee" involving an ad hoc group of European countries and potentially also like-minded non-European countries. The document is vague in terms of how this peacekeeping operation would function and does not mention any U.S. participation.
That is *not* a "robust security guarantee." It's an ambiguous one. And it is being done at the insistence of Putin -- who has said he will not accept a foreign peacekeeping presence.

Ukraine already gets most of the shit sandwich here. Putin, the aggressor, should be made to accept at least some of it too. I don't care that he hates the idea of foreign peacekeeping forces. His own repeated actions make them absolutely necessary.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:

Trump's "final offer" for peace requires Ukraine to accept Russian occupation​

Perusing through this, I can see why Ukraine is unwilling to go along with it. But I don't think it's the concession of territory.

That's pretty much unavoidable at this point. I hate it, I wish it wasn't where things stand. But it's where they've stood for a long time now. Absent direct foreign military intervention, Russia isn't going to be pushed back. If we want to talk about direct intervention, then we can talk about it. But I don't get the sense that the appetite for this exists here or in Europe.

I suspect that Ukraine's objection is this:

What Ukraine gets under Trump's proposal​
  1. "A robust security guarantee" involving an ad hoc group of European countries and potentially also like-minded non-European countries. The document is vague in terms of how this peacekeeping operation would function and does not mention any U.S. participation.
That is *not* a "robust security guarantee." It's an ambiguous one. And it is being done at the insistence of Putin -- who has said he will not accept a foreign peacekeeping presence.

Ukraine already gets most of the shit sandwich here. Putin, the aggressor, should be made to accept at least some of it too. I don't care that he hates the idea of foreign peacekeeping forces. His own repeated actions make them absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...
Read that part of the agreement was that Russia keep Crimea and Trump put out a message saying if Ukraine wanted it so bad, why didn't they fight for it in 2014.

Really disappointed in this and am glad Zelensky told him to stick it.

The fact Russia is willing to agree to a complete ceasefire (even if they keep everything they have now) shows that Putin is getting desparate. If the US backs away and the EU steps up aid, I think Putin will crack or be overthrown.

Sending scooters out to get blown up in minefields shows what kind of shape the Russian military is in.

I hope Trump doesn't lift the sanctions on Russia, but I'm afraid he might.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:

Trump's "final offer" for peace requires Ukraine to accept Russian occupation​

Perusing through this, I can see why Ukraine is unwilling to go along with it. But I don't think it's the concession of territory.

That's pretty much unavoidable at this point. I hate it, I wish it wasn't where things stand. But it's where they've stood for a long time now. Absent direct foreign military intervention, Russia isn't going to be pushed back. If we want to talk about direct intervention, then we can talk about it. But I don't get the sense that the appetite for this exists here or in Europe.

I suspect that Ukraine's objection is this:

What Ukraine gets under Trump's proposal​
  1. "A robust security guarantee" involving an ad hoc group of European countries and potentially also like-minded non-European countries. The document is vague in terms of how this peacekeeping operation would function and does not mention any U.S. participation.
That is *not* a "robust security guarantee." It's an ambiguous one. And it is being done at the insistence of Putin -- who has said he will not accept a foreign peacekeeping presence.

Ukraine already gets most of the shit sandwich here. Putin, the aggressor, should be made to accept at least some of it too. I don't care that he hates the idea of foreign peacekeeping forces. His own repeated actions make them absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...
Pure shit. This basically gives nothing to Ukraine. It just gives Russia time to regroup and prepare for and amass the next attack.

Currently, Russia has far more to gain with a cease-fire and far more to lose without it.

Meanwhile, Europe is mobilizing to support Ukraine more seriously. So that’s a positive for Ukraine and a negative for Russia because right now the war is at a relative standstill.

The only threat to Ukraine with no cease-fire is if the United States completely withdraws support to Ukraine. While this is certainly conceivable because Trump, GOP support for such a decision is not rocksolid. A lot of conservative Congressmen want to support Ukraine.

Bad deal. Don’t take it, Ukraine.
 
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iuwclurker said:
…to support Ukraine.
Click to expand...

I think we’re at the point where people have to be precise about what this means.

That can be anything from putting a Ukrainian flag on your social media bio all the way to insisting we mobilize 250,000 troops and a couple aircraft carriers to the Black Sea.

I agree with Trump that it’s time to bring this to an end. The lines aren’t moving and aren’t likely to.

But the foreign peacekeeping forces need to be non-negotiable.
 
crazed_hoosier2 said:
I think we’re at the point where people have to be precise about what this means.

That can be anything from putting a Ukrainian flag on your social media bio all the way to insisting we mobilize 250,000 troops and a couple aircraft carriers to the Black Sea.

I agree with Trump that it’s time to bring this to an end. The lines aren’t moving and aren’t likely to.

But the foreign peacekeeping forces need to be non-negotiable.
Click to expand...
Ukrainian flags on social media isn't 'supporting' Ukraine. Giving them the latest weapons and keeping the sanctions on Russia is. No US troops are needed.

It will end when one side is ready and nothing Trump can do will change that.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:
I think we’re at the point where people have to be precise about what this means.

That can be anything from putting a Ukrainian flag on your social media bio all the way to insisting we mobilize 250,000 troops and a couple aircraft carriers to the Black Sea.

I agree with Trump that it’s time to bring this to an end. The lines aren’t moving and aren’t likely to.

But the foreign peacekeeping forces need to be non-negotiable.
Click to expand...
I agree on specificity but serious people view things far more narrowly than your extremes.

The best way to end this quickly is to clearly state the US will provide Ukraine with intelligence as long as necessary and defensive weaponry if the cease fire negotiation fails. The amount of the latter can be left vague. Call Putin’s bluff because he is bluffing.

Additionally, publicly call out China for aiding Russia.

That’s plenty specific.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:
The lines aren’t moving and aren’t likely to.
Click to expand...
Geographically they’re at a standstill but the longer the war lasts the more Russia loses. Agree to this deal and Putin not only wins bigly but in an entirely unsatisfying manner in his eyes, thus encouraging him to rinse and repeat before he succumbs to old age.
 
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Aloha Hoosier said:
Some say the President doesn’t favor Russia over Ukraine. It’s sad:

Trump slams Zelenskyy for rejecting Ukraine-Russia negotiations, saying a deal was 'very close'

High-level talks in London aimed at bringing a pause to fighting in Ukraine disintegrated after Secretary of State Marco Rubio and special envoy Steve Witkoff pulled out.
www.nbcnews.com
Click to expand...
“Rubio and Witkoff's absence "suggests that Washington is increasingly disinterested in drawn-out, multilateral negotiations," Németh added. "This is not just about diplomacy fatigue. It also signals a hard pivot: The U.S. is not positioning itself as a neutral mediator."”

The US should NOT position itself as a neutral mediator! We should clearly take the side of the invaded country, Ukraine. That’s in our best interests geopolitically and morally.
 
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DANC said:
Read that part of the agreement was that Russia keep Crimea and Trump put out a message saying if Ukraine wanted it so bad, why didn't they fight for it in 2014.

Really disappointed in this and am glad Zelensky told him to stick it.

The fact Russia is willing to agree to a complete ceasefire (even if they keep everything they have now) shows that Putin is getting desparate. If the US backs away and the EU steps up aid, I think Putin will crack or be overthrown.

Sending scooters out to get blown up in minefields shows what kind of shape the Russian military is in.

I hope Trump doesn't lift the sanctions on Russia, but I'm afraid he might.
Click to expand...
Trump has totally effed this up. Backed the wrong horse and I am NOT VRY HAPPY about it !
This now makes me seriously question him! I'm awaiting a major shift soon, or I am totaly out on Trump.

This wasn't even hard to understand right from wrong. Now that doesn't mean that backing "right" was going to be a cake walk, but ya gotta stand for something and Trump Eff'd this up terribly !
 
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Joe_Hoopsier said:
Trump has totally effed this up. Backed the wrong horse and I am NOT VRY HAPPY about it !
This now makes me seriously question him! I'm awaiting a major shift soon, or I am totaly out on Trump.

This wasn't even hard to understand right from wrong. Now that doesn't mean that backing "right" was going to be a cake walk, but ya gotta stand for something and Trump Eff'd this up terribly !
Click to expand...
Many of the MAGAs are pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine. You aren’t and I respect that.
 
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crazed_hoosier2 said:

Trump's "final offer" for peace requires Ukraine to accept Russian occupation​

Perusing through this, I can see why Ukraine is unwilling to go along with it. But I don't think it's the concession of territory.

That's pretty much unavoidable at this point. I hate it, I wish it wasn't where things stand. But it's where they've stood for a long time now. Absent direct foreign military intervention, Russia isn't going to be pushed back. If we want to talk about direct intervention, then we can talk about it. But I don't get the sense that the appetite for this exists here or in Europe.

I suspect that Ukraine's objection is this:

What Ukraine gets under Trump's proposal​
  1. "A robust security guarantee" involving an ad hoc group of European countries and potentially also like-minded non-European countries. The document is vague in terms of how this peacekeeping operation would function and does not mention any U.S. participation.
That is *not* a "robust security guarantee." It's an ambiguous one. And it is being done at the insistence of Putin -- who has said he will not accept a foreign peacekeeping presence.

Ukraine already gets most of the shit sandwich here. Putin, the aggressor, should be made to accept at least some of it too. I don't care that he hates the idea of foreign peacekeeping forces. His own repeated actions make them absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...

 
Spartans9312 said:
Trump is going to have to quit whining and play hard ball with Putin….like he has with Zelensky
Click to expand...
Trumps whole posture towards Putin is one big face saving exercise according to George Friedman. Putin is in a precarious position caught between the ultra-nationalist Russian right wing wing and more liberal Russians that want to gravitate westward. The Russian kinetic army has proven to ineffectual.

Putin needs to come out of this war appearing to have won and in power because only a complete ****ing moron would want to roll the dice on Putin be deposed and having to deal with whatever creature gets belched out of the ultra-nationalist wing next.
 
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