To me that is the bottom line as long as it's done with no drugs to enhance performance.
RIP Pete Rose
- Thread starter crazed_hoosier2
- Start date
Rose isn’t in the Top 5 of players not in the HOF right now. Shoeless Joe was a much, much better player and he’ll probably never get in either.
I’ve wondered what Barry Bonds’s career would have looked like without PEDs. Look at pictures of Bonds early in his career with Pittsburgh. Then look at pictures of his as a Giant, so to speak.
Went to a Giants game in Cincinnati when Bonds was solidly in his enhanced state. Sat close to the Giants’ dugout. Bonds was walking to the on-deck circle and had already put on his batting helmet. He took it off to scratch and, my God, his head was gigantic.
I also wonder what this will portend for his future health.
Sooooo, you’re saying it’s the greenies we took back in the day that will keep me out?
He had the best line ever said about him: "Say it isn't so, Joe."
Yeah, I'd have a hard time naming 5 better ones. Bonds would definitely be on that list -- to me, he's the best one. And I can go with Shoeless Joe (although I've always found it kind of pointless to compare players from different eras).
Clemens would be in there somewhere as well. But there's always the issue of comparing players who play every game to players who play every fifth game. I'll leave that aside and put Clemens on my list. And I guess....A-Rod?
Rose would be in my Top 5.
Most ped users are the ones on the fringe of making it. I sure as shit would have done it
I scoff at this "integrity of the game" bullshit when it comes to Major League Baseball. MLB history is littered with cheating and they only gave a shit when they were forced to, and otherwise they mostly ignored it with winks and nods while basking in the attention the game got. Loaded bats, cork and pine tar. Doctored balls using Vaseline and sandpaper and emory boards and files and cutting instruments. When the balls weren't doctored or juiced, the players were. The cocaine/stimulant era, the PED era, the Dead Ball era(s). MLB is the epitome of the old sports adage "if ya ain't cheatin' ya ain't tryin".
Unless they could prove he bet against his team and/or took actions as a player/manager to the team's detriment to ensure he won his bets, he deserves to be in the Hall. Hell, if we are going to be a semantic stickler, his lifetime ban ended when he died so wouldn't his time be served?
I have no use for a sport that has no use for one of it's most decorated record holders.
Unless they could prove he bet against his team and/or took actions as a player/manager to the team's detriment to ensure he won his bets, he deserves to be in the Hall. Hell, if we are going to be a semantic stickler, his lifetime ban ended when he died so wouldn't his time be served?
I have no use for a sport that has no use for one of it's most decorated record holders.
Amen, the game is a great game but marred in controversy. Many in the hall are guilty of cheating but never got caught or got caught and it was just overlooked.
Unless Rose bet on a team he had on an impact of whether they won or lost, it is not relevant.
Much to agree with here, but for all its warts and flaws it still has its moments. Witness the first game yesterday between the Braves and the Mets. Those last two innings had everything - highs, lows, exhilaration, despair, drama.
Impossible to do since there are not 5. The guy has 4256 hits was a 17 time all-star at 5 different positions.
To say there are 5 better not already in is foolish.
Might be thinking: (top 6):
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa
Alex Rodriguez
I have no problem with the game of baseball, I do have a problem with the historical hypocrisy of MLB.
5 of the 6 were juiced. Would they have been top 5 otherwise? Would have been good and had fine careers, but without the roids would they be considered top 5? Would they even be in the conversation around the HOF?
Babe Ruth did it under the influence of hot dogs while dodging syphilis laden flappers. Hank Aaron did it under death threats. Nolan Ryan did it on general badassery.
Why thank you for asking:
Bonds
ARod
Clemens
Shoeless Joe
Pujols*
Mike Trout*
Mookie Betts*
Justin Verlander*
Curt Shilling**
Despite Rose padding his stats when he was a decade beyond his prime, all of the above listed players have larger career WAR than Rose (or, will have in a season or two). Shilling is tied with him and did it in fewer years.
For HOF, though, I don't think the counting stats are everything or even the most thing. Rose is a perfect example: he played for 24 years, and in his final 8 seasons, a full 1/3 of his career, he averaged less than replacement value. He padded his hits total during these years by 991 hits. Take those away, he's not in the Top 10 for all-time hits.
If you focus on their primes that lasted at least, let's say a decade, there are probably another 10 or so guys objectively better than Rose, and all of the above listed are.
Another way to look at this is to compare WAR/year. Rose's career WAR/year is a 3.31. There are 17 players in the Top 150 all-time total WAR, who played more than 15 seasons, and who have a higher WAR/year than Rose: Kershaw, Dahlen, Whittaker, Palmeiro, Grich, Beltran, Reuschel, Cano, Lofton, K. Brown, D. Evans, Buddy Bell, Luis Tiant, Willie Randolph, Reggie Smith, Chase Utley, Joey Votto.
One of the reasons I like WAR is that it takes into account defense, by the way. Rose was a below average defender (career dWAR of -13.2).
Finally, Rose's most dominant year, by WAR, was 8.3 in 1973 (next closest was 7.0). That doesn't even make the Top 500 all-time seasons! And while he won the MVP in '73, that was a joke: he finished 4th in WAR and 12th in OPS. Joe Morgan (who I despise) had a better year and should have won.
Absent his betting on baseball while managing the Reds (it wouldn't surprise me in the least to discover that he also bet on games he played in), Rose would and should be in the HOF. But he's not even close to being one of the best players of all-time.
Incredibly well researched. Kudos.
Some of those names are surprising and would buttress my argument that stats aren’t the be-all and end-all.
But I want to look at one thing in particular here. You “despise Joe Morgan?” Why in the world would you hate Joe Morgan? Did he walk by your yard and pee in your flower bed?
Aside from Joe Jackson weren't all on steroids? I do believe that greatly enhanced their ability to play and build stats. I enjoyed all watching all those guys, but come on stats based on performance enhancing drugs is a bit skewed.
Again I like all the players listed and they may have had great numbers w/o help be we will never know.
Maybe I missed his point but I thought it was based on five who are better than Rose but effectively banned by the HOF voters.
I don't recall anyone saying "one of the best players of all time" just that his career is a career that belongs in the hall. The entire body of his work should count, his value was enough that teams paid him to play for 24 years.
WAR matters more now because players are paid at a much higher level than when he played. Wins over replacement matter drastically when you are paying a player 200k a game and can replace him with a player making 20k a game.
Could be, but their ban was based on doing something that drastically enhanced their performance. To me it kind of apples to oranges.
FWIW McGwire and Sosa were mediocre without help. Bonds was a shell of himself prior to his Giants days. I'm not sure why Trout and some are on this list as I'm confident guys like him will eventually get in? Hell Puljos isn't even eligible until 2028 and he will be get in on the first ballot.
And so we finally have been shown that the political correctness/personal traits of the person over reaches the baseball ability of any player the Hall wants to managed in or out. The traits for which Rose hase been shunned are in no way relative to him as a player.
For my part - and for the last 40 years or so - I've said tat is the won;t hote Pete in one these 2 thins should occur =. 1. The entiremembership should be researched and any displaying unfavorable traits should be removed or 2. The should burn the place down.
I believe Rose's record (and ...........s games played) arethe ONLY baseball records that will never be broken
1. He's one of the worst sports broadcasters of all-time, and a classless prick:
FIRE JOE MORGAN
2. Morgan spent years taking petty shots at Ryne Sandberg for no good reason. Sandberg was my sports hero growing up (and generally just a good guy, I think).
Joe Morgan, an inexplicably vocal critic of fellow second baseman Ryne Sandberg, decides to snub his Hall of Fame induction ceremony as well. "Dumbass" gets nod due to absence of "Classless"
Joe Morgan, an inexplicably vocal critic of fellow second baseman Ryne Sandberg, decides to snub his Hall of Fame induction ceremony as well. "Dumbass" gets nod due to absence of "Classless"
I might have to shower again after reading some of the comments on that fark thing. Ryne Sandberg’s wife a Slumpbuster? Ouch.1. He's one of the worst sports broadcasters of all-time, and a classless prick:
FIRE JOE MORGAN
www.firejoemorgan.com
2. Morgan spent years taking petty shots at Ryne Sandberg for no good reason. Sandberg was my sports hero growing up (and generally just a good guy, I think).
Joe Morgan, an inexplicably vocal critic of fellow second baseman Ryne Sandberg, decides to snub his Hall of Fame induction ceremony as well. "Dumbass" gets nod due to absence of "Classless"
Joe Morgan, an inexplicably vocal critic of fellow second baseman Ryne Sandberg, decides to snub his Hall of Fame induction ceremony as well. "Dumbass" gets nod due to absence of "Classless"www.fark.com
Sandberg’s in the HOF. The late Joe Morgan is in. Lou Whitaker should be in.
McGwire was mediocre without help? He regularly started using steroids in '93. In the previous 6 seasons, he averaged a WAR of 4.2. That's nearly 1 WAR more, per season, than Rose's career average. He had one OPS+ season of 164 and another of 176!
His eyesight was too good so they banned him retroactively for having had an unfair advantage.
I knew someone would finally bring "political correctness" into the argument, and I'm not at all surprised it's you. Explain how it's "politically correct" to expect the premiere representatives of the game of baseball to have integrity and not bet on games. Hell, even Rose agreed to accept a lifetime ban.
Of course, I'm sure you have other people you support without a modicum of integrity. Par for the course.
Let’s not forget the time he lost while he was off being a hero in the war either, in or near his prime…
McGwire was a very good player, greatly helped by steroids. 1993 is when he confessed to start to use. His strikeout total almost equals his total hits. He had 1600 in 16 seasons. I liked McGuire but he was like a .230 hitter prior to the 1993 season. The bash brothers were one of my all time favorite duo's, but that doesn't change the fact he was just a good player.
Those big juiced up arms brought baseball back to life- along with Sammy suser
So true.... different rules, different balls, different stadium dimensions... I could go on and on. For example, when Babe Ruth played I believe a ground rule double in today's game would have been a home run.
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