RIP Pete Rose

[Ohio Guy]

I thought this was interesting/cool. The day before Pete died in his Las Vegas home, he was in Nashville at an autograph signing event with Dave Concepcion, George Foster, Tony Perez, and Ken Griffey Sr. (the other guy is Rose's agent):

 

[Spartans9312]

Probably not true

 

[Marvin the Martian]

And so we finally have been shown that the political correctness/personal traits of the person over reaches the baseball ability of any player the Hall wants to managed in or out. The traits for which Rose hase been shunned are in no way relative to him as a player.

For my part - and for the last 40 years or so - I've said tat is the won;t hote Pete in one these 2 thins should occur =. 1. The entiremembership should be researched and any displaying unfavorable traits should be removed or 2. The should burn the place down.

I believe Rose's record (and ...........s games played) arethe ONLY baseball records that will never be broken

Of course it matters, it is why Bonds should not be in.

Rose bet as a player:

OTL: Notebook shows Rose bet on MLB as player

New documents obtained by Outside the Lines indicate Rose bet extensively on baseball -- and on the Reds -- as he racked up the last hits of a record-smashing career in 1986.

www.espn.com

Betting has been baseball's cardinal sin. Baseball has always had a firm line that if you bet, you will be permanently banned.

And two different people say Rose corked his bat.

It is interesting that it is now "PC" to follow the rules of the game.

If Rose had come clean, forgiveness would have been appropriate in my opinion. But he lied.

 

[mike41703]

@burnthemallralpie

 

[82hoosier]

Yeah, I'd have a hard time naming 5 better ones. Bonds would definitely be on that list -- to me, he's the best one. And I can go with Shoeless Joe (although I've always found it kind of pointless to compare players from different eras).

Clemens would be in there somewhere as well. But there's always the issue of comparing players who play every game to players who play every fifth game. I'll leave that aside and put Clemens on my list. And I guess....A-Rod?

Rose would be in my Top 5.

Bonds hurt baseball. Pete Rose was the real deal.

 

[BradStevens]

View embedded media

That's a great interview. I've used all those players Williams talks about at DiamondMind baseball.

It's neat to have a guy like Williams confirm Shoeless Joe was one of the best hitters of all-time. DB Sweeney's best role, by the way. He and Costner (as a righty, not a lefty) have the most believable baseball swings in film:

 

[NPT]

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Why thank you for asking:

Bonds
ARod
Clemens
Shoeless Joe
Pujols*
Mike Trout*
Mookie Betts*
Justin Verlander*
Curt Shilling**

Despite Rose padding his stats when he was a decade beyond his prime, all of the above listed players have larger career WAR than Rose (or, will have in a season or two). Shilling is tied with him and did it in fewer years.

For HOF, though, I don't think the counting stats are everything or even the most thing. Rose is a perfect example: he played for 24 years, and in his final 8 seasons, a full 1/3 of his career, he averaged less than replacement value. He padded his hits total during these years by 991 hits. Take those away, he's not in the Top 10 for all-time hits.

If you focus on their primes that lasted at least, let's say a decade, there are probably another 10 or so guys objectively better than Rose, and all of the above listed are.

Another way to look at this is to compare WAR/year. Rose's career WAR/year is a 3.31. There are 17 players in the Top 150 all-time total WAR, who played more than 15 seasons, and who have a higher WAR/year than Rose: Kershaw, Dahlen, Whittaker, Palmeiro, Grich, Beltran, Reuschel, Cano, Lofton, K. Brown, D. Evans, Buddy Bell, Luis Tiant, Willie Randolph, Reggie Smith, Chase Utley, Joey Votto.

One of the reasons I like WAR is that it takes into account defense, by the way. Rose was a below average defender (career dWAR of -13.2).

Finally, Rose's most dominant year, by WAR, was 8.3 in 1973 (next closest was 7.0). That doesn't even make the Top 500 all-time seasons! And while he won the MVP in '73, that was a joke: he finished 4th in WAR and 12th in OPS. Joe Morgan (who I despise) had a better year and should have won.

Absent his betting on baseball while managing the Reds (it wouldn't surprise me in the least to discover that he also bet on games he played in), Rose would and should be in the HOF. But he's not even close to being one of the best players of all-time.

You might be the only person I've heard say that Mookie Betts was a better player then Rose.

Thoughts on Thurman Munson?

Edit: I'd also add that nobody ever talks about Tommy John as a player, just the surgery. Dude was incredibly good and has the stats to back it up.

 

[BradStevens]

You might be the only person I've heard say that Mookie Betts was a better player then Rose.

Thoughts on Thurman Munson?

Edit: I'd also add that nobody ever talks about Tommy John as a player, just the surgery. Dude was incredibly good and has the stats to back it up.

Betts has 39% of the PAs as Rose. Yet he has 69.6 WAR to Rose's career 79.5. Betts is 31; he'll surpass Rose in 3 years. If he's healthy (a rarity), 2 years.

Or you can look at JAWS (https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml)

Rose:

JAWS Left Field (5th):
79.5 career WAR | 44.9 7yr-peak WAR | 62.2 JAWS | 3.6 WAR/162
Average HOF LF (out of 21):
65.1 career WAR | 41.6 7yr-peak WAR | 53.4 JAWS | 4.8 WAR/162

Betts:

JAWS Right Field (8th):
69.6 career WAR | 55.0 7yr-peak WAR | 62.3 JAWS | 8.2 WAR/162
Average HOF RF (out of 28):
71.1 career WAR | 42.4 7yr-peak WAR | 56.7 JAWS | 5.1 WAR/162

Munson was taken too soon. Had he been able to play 2-3 more years, he'd be a sure-fire HOF. I still remember his 1979 Topps card with the sideburns and 'stache. Tommy John was mostly an above average pitcher for a very long time.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Edit: I'd also add that nobody ever talks about Tommy John as a player, just the surgery. Dude was incredibly good and has the stats to back it up.

He was a really solid pitcher for a long time. As a Reds fan though, my personal bias creeps in here too. Hard to root for a Dodger at all, then you throw in his time as a Yankee and I'm unwilling to call him anything other than solid.

 

[NPT]