I’m not talking about behavior, though.
I’m talking about the two lies. They were both as bad as each other.
RIP Jimmy Carter
- Thread starter dbmhoosier
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I’m not talking about behavior, though.
I’m talking about the two lies. They were both as bad as each other.
Just to be clear, you're saying that exaggerating the effect that a foreign actor had on our electoral outcome is equally as bad as actively accusing American officials who have sworn oaths to uphold the Constitution of fraudulently administering an election in order to take victory from the rightful winner and give it to the loser.
OK. I give up. The two situations are monumentally different as are the effects. If you don't see that, I have nothing to add.
Yes.
Saying that the result of a free and fair election was fraudulent is a bad thing, whatever the underlying details.
I don't think it's unreasonable to disagree with that. I think that if someone thinks accusing the Georgia Secretary of State of fraudulently interfering with our election is worse than accusing the President of Russia of fraudulently interfering with our election, that's a perfectly reasonable take, and it's equally as likely that your biases are making you blind to that as it is that Aloha's biases are making him focus on the distinction.
Also, let’s not forget that the allegation wasn’t merely an exaggeration of the influence of Russia’s troll farms. That’s a whitewash, Goat.
The allegation was an active conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russian government.
That allegation existed, but it wasn't HRC's. Or Carter's, for that matter.
It existed…from people actually in government, for chrissakes. That’s objectively worse than Jimmy Carter musing on it from Atlanta.
And the infamous Steele dossier, which was the predicate for the FISA warrant, came from the Clinton campaign. They paid for it.
Even your comments here underscore what I’m saying. People who are either favorable to Democrats or (in the case of people like Aloha) particularly disfavorable to Trump have memory-holed what really happened there. This wasn’t overstating the impact of Russian social media trolls. It went way beyond that. And it was bullshit.
It really shouldn’t be that hard to point at both of these campaigns to undermine the legitimacy of our elections and unequivocally denounce both of them.
Instead, most people are highly critical of one lie…and, at best, mildly critical of the other one (if not just outright carrying it).
Show me a direct quote from Clinton saying that Trump or his campaign actually colluded with Russia in order to fraudulently change the outcome of the election, and I'll be on board with you. I'm betting you'll find that's a difficult task.
As it stands, based solely on the public information I'm aware of, Trump's complaints about 2020 and Clinton's complaints about 2016 were qualitatively different to such an extent that it is perfectly reasonable for someone to view Trump's complaints as far more severe than Clinton's.
To me, Trump's actions in 2020 were qualitatively worse in comparison. But Clinton's opened the door to legitimizing that kind of talk (or opened it much further) and she was never punished for it. And I think she should have known better.
A decent summary of the Dems election denials:
Huh. In about 25 seconds I found a 9/12/17 NBC piece by Adam Edelman in which Hilary was quoted as saying she was convinced there was collusion. I’m sure there are others.
I don’t know if she actually said those words publicly.
But, again, the Steele dossier was paid for by the Clinton campaign and the DNC.
Are you familiar with what it alleges? And, further, are you familiar with how it was used?
If you are, then you wouldn’t be saying this.
The entire notion that Trump conspired with Russia to steal the presidency literally has its genesis in the Steele Dossier - which, again, was oppo paid for by Hillary Clinton.
Here’s a snippet of what she bought and what was used by the FBI, at least in part, as a predicate for a FISA warrant:
And you give her a pass just because she never publicly mouthed words to this effect?
The Steele dossier was paid for by Republicans until Trump had the nomination.I don’t know if she actually said those words publicly.
But, again, the Steele dossier was paid for by the Clinton campaign and the DNC.
Are you familiar with what it alleges? And, further, are you familiar with how it was used?
If you are, then you wouldn’t be saying this.
The entire notion that Trump conspired with Russia to steal the presidency literally has its genesis in the Steele Dossier - which, again, was oppo paid for by Hillary Clinton.
Here’s a snippet of what she bought and what was used by the FBI, at least in part, as a predicate for a FISA warrant:
And you give her a pass just because she never publicly mouthed words to this effect?
But as you like to point out, it's immaterial to the question at hand, which is comparing the two "lies" of two different candidates. Behavior doesn't matter, remember?
Wait a second, I never said behavior doesn’t matter. Can I ask that you don’t put words in my mouth - and I will extend you the same courtesy?
No, what I said is that the comparison I’m making is only between the two lies. That’s what I’m saying are equally bad.
I have never condoned Trump for January 6th or accused Hillary Clinton of anything similar.
All I’m saying here is that one lie about a rigged election is no better or worse than another lie about a rigged election.
That’s it. If you want to take issue with what I’m saying, then make sure it’s something I’ve actually said.
It may have initially been funded by Republicans, but was 100% "anti-Trump" at all times. Once Trump had the nomination, Clinton and the DNC ran with the operation, consisting of numerous lies.
Also, your first comment is flatly false.
Fusion GPS was hired by anti-Trump Republican Paul Singer to do oppo on Trump. But that had nothing to do with Christopher Steele, let alone anything to do with Russia.
Steele’s dossier on Russia started life in April 2016. This was also done by way of Fusion GPS, but the funding came from the Clinton campaign and the DNC.
Read my post above. The Steele Dossier and the Russia allegations had nothing to do with the oppo that Paul Singer funded against Trump during the primaries.
There was a lot of misinformation about that - because both of these used Fusion GPS.
That’s irrelevant. The electorate and its view is important considering it elects.
I'm sorry for the poor paraphrasing, but it amounts to the same thing. If we are only talking about the lies, then you can't bring up this other stuff. Just compare the lies. Trump's lie was qualitatively different than Clinton's. Clearly.
I am only talking about the two lies themselves, as I have said several times. They are each as equally as bad as the other.
I've already acknowledged that's your opinion. I'm saying they are qualitatively different, and because of that, Aloha's opinion is also reasonable. You respond by exiting the lane and talking about the same extraneous details you told Aloha were irrelevant.
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Jimmy sounds like Obama. After hearing this he wasn’t a good person.
I know that President Carter was harshly critical of Israeli policies viz the Palestinians and West Bank in recent decades - especially in the aftermath of the 2nd intifada.
And that’s OK. Israeli policies are not beyond reproach. I didn’t often agree with Carter on that issue, but it’s certainly no mark against his character that he had these opinions and expressed them.
I’d like to learn more about the letters Jennings references. I can’t honestly say I remember them. But my first reaction is to bristle at the use of the word “treason” (whether qualified with “borderline” or not) to describe what he says Carter’s letters said.
That’s a very weighty word that shouldn’t be casually used for its shock value in prime time cable news discourse.
Some good information here.
Imagine if Trump was doing what Jennings says as an ex-President. People like Aloha would be calling it a Logan Act violation and wanting Trump’s arrest. But a Dem does it and it’s just fine.
Just think of it as a paycheck issue. The image will clarify.
I am curious, no where in that article is a suggestion ex-President Carter negotiated with any foreign power. He wrote books on a subject. How is writing a book a violation of Logan?
Is there a sentence I missed where he called Arab leaders and negotiated?
Negotiating requires two parties willing to discuss terms. Carter wasn’t in a position to negotiate anything anyway. What Jennings claims is Carter wrote letters to foreign leaders attempting to convince them to act against the will of US leadership of the time, or that is how I took it. Am I misunderstanding his claim? Whether or not his claim is accurate, I cannot say….
You’re dumb as a post. Writing a book isn’t a Logan Act violation. I’ve heavily criticized Carter for some of his post-Presidential behavior, including that specific book, on this board. Especially when it comes to the Middle East and Israel. I’ve called him the worst President in my lifetime. The man just died. Despite my criticism of his Presidency and some of his post-Presidency behavior, he was overall a decent man who did what he thought was right. No need to get disrespectful and uncivil about the man before he’s even buried. Uncivil disrespect is a MAGA thing. You may continue. Let me change my opening sentence, you’re dumb as a rotten post.
Mas, don’t be a cowardly ankle biter. Say what you mean and say it to me or STFU. There was a time I respected you. Those days are long gone.
Hillary’s lie, made only a couple of times, was that Trump’s campaign colluded with Russia to influence the election in Trump’s behavior. We no know from Mueller’s investigation that evidence does not show a conspiracy between them, but that Russia did try to influence the election in Trump’s behavior. So, she’s been truthful the times she said that. When she continues on to say it made the election illegitimate, she’s wrong. No one has been able to quantify the effects of Russia’s interference. However, she’s blaming Russia for what they did, not Americans.
When Trump lies about the 2020 election being lost due to voter fraud, he’s not condemning foreign bad actors, he’s condemning Americans. He’s condemning elected officials, including Republicans (not that their parties are the point), and ordinary Americans (of both parties or Independent) who’ve volunteered to work the elections and took oaths to do it responsibly and in a nonpartisan way. He’s told the lie primarily to rile up his base and the dupes among the party. He actually knows he’s lying because he’s been told by Barr, countless advisors, and by two experts he paid to find voter fraud but didn’t. If you read the election interference case, it shows he admitted there was no voter fraud but didn’t care. He would continue telling the lie because he thought it helped him politically, and it very probably did.
If all that doesn’t change the notion that these were equivalent, nothing will.
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I see Carter claims Assas told him Syria would accept a move back further from the border than Israel and he could report that to Washington. I don't know if that is negotiating. I do not see phone calls.
I suspect all ex-presidents talk to foreign leaders.
@Aloha Hoosier , since you were the one named, in June of this year Trump and Zelensky spoke by phone in a conversation they both categorized as good. How many posts in June did you make claiming a Logan Act violation? And I don't know, anyone know how many posts were made claiming a violation by Trump?
I didn’t. I said incoming Presidents and presumptive nominees can talk to world leaders and it was perfectly OK to do so. For Presidents-elect, they meet many world leaders as part of the transition. What is not OK is for a President-elect or prominent private citizen to negotiate on behalf of the United States unless the current President authorizes it. That would be illegal.
As to your specific question, dbm was taking Trump’s claim that he’d stop the war in Ukraine before Inauguration Day seriously (surprise, surprise). I pointed out that it would be illegal for Trump to negotiate that before he’s President (Logan Act). Since then he’s been pointing out Trump meeting with world leaders and sniping about the Logan Act. You know dbm claims to be a lawyer? LOL!
