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Race not done??

I just went back through the schedule this year, and dammit is it depressing to see how close this team was. We easily gave away 4 games in the conf (actually more like 6 but you can't win them all). That's the difference between being 22-8/13-7, the 4 seed in the B1G tourney with double bye, and probably 5 seed in the NCAA (and ranked), versus a probable NIT team (unless we show this Thurs/Friday at the very least).

So close. Have the talent, just not the ability to close games. RMK said many times, the key is not the will to win, it's the willingness to prepare to win.
 
His size/athleticism would certainly be nothing noteworthy in the NBA, just baseline sufficient. What I was getting at is there always 2-3 PFs of similar size/athleticism as Race that get drafted late, and that if he improves his shooting he could put himself in contention for a late pick
I'd put my own odds at better, at 50, 5'9, and part-time smoker if I could put out a realistic highlight video of me kicking my wife's ass in the driveway with a torn ACL. I think we're dealing with similar odds here of him playing pro ball anywhere
 
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Houston. 6'4 230 at the 4 spot. One example of many, considering almost every team has a small ball lineup. Draymond 6'6 at the 4, and a small ball 5.

Tatum, 6'8 210 at 4. Should I keep going?
Tatum is a lot closer to 6-11 than to 6-8
 
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Oh man, not getting where the decent dudes on the team are now somehow poison. It’s Race’s fault Archie never got any guys who could shoot?
Yeah, I might be in the minority but if I was looking to build on the team for next year, I would want to keep X, Race, and TJD and then look for a couple of guys at the 2/3 slots. Either the incoming Freshmen, a guy like Bates or Galloway taking a leap next year, or a guy in the portal. Have TJD work on his other hand in the post and have Race practicing 15+ feet out to try and have him be a stretch 4.

I think you have an easier time convincing a transfer portal guy that you are 2 starters away from a good team if you keep Race/TJD/X as opposed to having Duncomb/Durr/Geronimo being your 4/5 players.
 
I just went back through the schedule this year, and dammit is it depressing to see how close this team was. We easily gave away 4 games in the conf (actually more like 6 but you can't win them all). That's the difference between being 22-8/13-7, the 4 seed in the B1G tourney with double bye, and probably 5 seed in the NCAA (and ranked), versus a probable NIT team (unless we show this Thurs/Friday at the very least).

So close. Have the talent, just not the ability to close games. RMK said many times, the key is not the will to win, it's the willingness to prepare to win.
Yes, and FT% and 3pt FG% improvement are about the willingness to prepare to win.

IUWBB shoot .750 and .330 … and makes IUMBB look pitiful in comparison.
 
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Also, I wasn't saying that he would get drafted this year. My argument was that IF he improved his shooting, he might have an outside chance of being a late pick which also in no way guarantees making a roster.

Juwan Morgan, while undrafted, has been able to play a little in the NBA. Morgan was a bit craftier off the dribble, but Race has more size
He needs to get softer around the rim. Juwan was really fluid around the rim and his shots (and the angles of his shots) were to the point that you were surprised when he missed.

Morgan really was an outstanding college player as an upperclassmen.

Race is getting better each year in traffic but he still throws up some grenades.

Race actually has a really pretty right handed half hook that I've always wondered why his didn't use more often. It's almost unguardable. Maybe because TJD was in the post?

Race's unique skill has always been he's a terror in transition. He's got an extremely good handle for a guy as big as he is and when he gets going downhill....look out.

He's big but he's fast.

Unfortunately he doesn't have the height to be a dominant post and he's too big to be a shooting forward (he's fast in a straight line but his size effects his lateral quickness).

I wouldn't be surprised if he played his last year at the U of M. He's always struck me as a little homesick and it's been five years away.
 
im actually thinking that if Race continues improve his 3 point shooting, he could work his way into a mid to late 2nd round draft pick because he has a great size/athleticism combo with good ball handling and defense. If he hears/feels his odds are reasonable he might just decide to come back.

Also maybe depends on what Trayce does,
I might go one step further.
If Race does develop that three he may have a longer NBA career than Trace
 
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Yes, and FT% and 3pt FG% improvement are about the willingness to prepare to win.

IUWBB shoot .750 and .330 … and makes IUMBB look pitiful in comparison.

The ladies have some shooters but I still believe that they are still using a smaller ball.
 
If (a) Race returnes, and (b) X returns, and spends the summer fishing with CMW while Woody talks to him about finding his inner peace, then next year has potential.

If TJD, Race and X leave...then we've got massive holes to fill on both ends of the court. You don't replace your top 3 scorers, top assists man, top 2 rebounders...without feeling pain (unless you can reload like Duke or UK).

edit-oh...and (arguably perhaps) our top 3 defenders, outside of Rob.
Outside of Galloway, I’m not going to be upset if anyone leaves.

Race is a nice player, and he’s proven he can shoot it a little which is great. He also has some really serious late game mental lapses and hasn’t proven to know how to close/win as a senior.

I’m also ready to move on from the entire offense standing around watching Trayce force his left hand shot, and then go 1-2 from the free throw line. When it comes to player development, this hasn’t done anyone any favors.

IU fans seem obsessed with keeping players around that don’t get anything done. I’m sure they’re great guys and I’m happy they got free educations, NIL money in addition to the stipends, and their asses kissed by anyone with lips. If you’re missing the tournament, may as well trot out the HPER league champs.

Even Duncomb hit a 17 footer.
 
I think Race is a better fit for what Woodson wants than TJD. And I think we will be better next year with Race on the team. To me it’s a no brainer that I want him back.
No doubt we're better for next year, but what does that mean; we sneak into the NIT vs .500? Do you see anyway we are actually better record-wise than this year? I suppose he at least plugs a hole so it makes it more likely we can improve via the portal. I'm just spent with this team and thinking we might be better off trying to get a younger core group we could build around like Rutgers did.
 
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Outside of Galloway, I’m not going to be upset if anyone leaves.

Race is a nice player, and he’s proven he can shoot it a little which is great. He also has some really serious late game mental lapses and hasn’t proven to know how to close/win as a senior.

I’m also ready to move on from the entire offense standing around watching Trayce force his left hand shot, and then go 1-2 from the free throw line. When it comes to player development, this hasn’t done anyone any favors.

IU fans seem obsessed with keeping players around that don’t get anything done. I’m sure they’re great guys and I’m happy they got free educations, NIL money in addition to the stipends, and their asses kissed by anyone with lips. If you’re missing the tournament, may as well trot out the HPER league champs.

Even Duncomb hit a 17 footer.
That's about my sentiment exactly, ready to move on in the interest of not being in permanent mediocrity with this bunch. If they all stayed, we have already seen what to expect
 
Also, I wasn't saying that he would get drafted this year. My argument was that IF he improved his shooting, he might have an outside chance of being a late pick which also in no way guarantees making a roster.

Juwan Morgan, while undrafted, has been able to play a little in the NBA. Morgan was a bit craftier off the dribble, but Race has more size
well, you've got him with a 40" vertical, taller than many starting and all-star PFs in the league and improved shooting. How do you keep a guy like that out of the lottery? The reality is he's an undersized PF with a balky shot, and now he's got to move that back almost 2', and be guarded by bigger and quicker players. I root for him, I really do, but I think it's highly unlikely he's ever getting a full or multi-year deal in the NBA, and highly doubtful he could play himself into being drafted. His path to the NBA if it exists, is likely as a FA like Juwan did. As I said, we've underachieved with him as a role player, so I don't see us improving in a primary role and losing TJD defensively. The one hope he'd bring is he'd fill a spot and so might make it more likely we could improve if we had success in the portal.
 
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Outside of Galloway, I’m not going to be upset if anyone leaves.

Race is a nice player, and he’s proven he can shoot it a little which is great. He also has some really serious late game mental lapses and hasn’t proven to know how to close/win as a senior.

I’m also ready to move on from the entire offense standing around watching Trayce force his left hand shot, and then go 1-2 from the free throw line. When it comes to player development, this hasn’t done anyone any favors.

IU fans seem obsessed with keeping players around that don’t get anything done. I’m sure they’re great guys and I’m happy they got free educations, NIL money in addition to the stipends, and their asses kissed by anyone with lips. If you’re missing the tournament, may as well trot out the HPER league champs.

Even Duncomb hit a 17 footer.
while I don' share enthusiasm of a season without both Race/Trayce....you do hit on a point here- a team that wants to run a spread/flex style offense can't be a team with two post players with no outside shot, surrounded by shooters who are supposed to hit 3s but can't. Long term changes are needed in that front. When we hit 3s were were tough to beat. I hate to name names because I know these kids/guys do work their asses off all year, but PS and MK's struggles outside (and lack of defensive quickness) is what really killed this season. That, and the slow development of some bench players who we thought would give us a little more
 
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Yup game has changed mostly at the four and five positions. TJD would have been a great power forward in the 80's. Edey a great center. Now, they're both liabilities. TJD on offense, Edey on defense. Power forwards are now undersized fives. Quicker, more skilled players at that position.
Didn't we have this same discussion last year about Luka Garza? I seem to remember you saying the same stuff: defensive liability, game has changed (not denying it has: it has!), etc... And I said a team would find a spot for a guy with his size and skills and he's now finishing up a rookie year in which he was drafted, played 10 mpg and hit 34% of his 3s as a rookie. I think you're kidding yourself if you think an NBA team won't find a spot for Edey, who I don't even think has been playing bball all that long. What odds do you want that Race gets drafted and Edey doesn't?
 
Didn't we have this same discussion last year about Luka Garza? I seem to remember you saying the same stuff: defensive liability, game has changed (not denying it has: it has!), etc... And I said a team would find a spot for a guy with his size and skills and he's now finishing up a rookie year in which he was drafted, played 10 mpg and hit 34% of his 3s as a rookie. I think you're kidding yourself if you think an NBA team won't find a spot for Edey, who I don't even think has been playing bball all that long. What odds do you want that Race gets drafted and Edey doesn't?
 
6’9 on a good day
But I'd say Race is 6'7" every day. And he's not Jayson Tatum. I don't like bagging on an IU guy, but I think his motivation for coming back next year would be unfinished business and maybe opening the eyes of an NBA GM or 2 who might want to get him to camp. Just don't see him playing his way into being drafted, and I don't see the player some do on here... even though he's been a solid player for us who has improved every year.
 
Didn't we have this same discussion last year about Luka Garza? I seem to remember you saying the same stuff: defensive liability, game has changed (not denying it has: it has!), etc... And I said a team would find a spot for a guy with his size and skills and he's now finishing up a rookie year in which he was drafted, played 10 mpg and hit 34% of his 3s as a rookie. I think you're kidding yourself if you think an NBA team won't find a spot for Edey, who I don't even think has been playing bball all that long. What odds do you want that Race gets drafted and Edey doesn't?
No one is saying Edey won’t get drafted, just late in the draft compared to 20+ years ago when he’d have been a lottery pick.

Also, Garza drafted at 52, is a G league player that got called up because of injuries, and has played less than half the season and got drafted at all because he a decent outside shot
 
But I'd say Race is 6'7" every day. And he's not Jayson Tatum. I don't like bagging on an IU guy, but I think his motivation for coming back next year would be unfinished business and maybe opening the eyes of an NBA GM or 2 who might want to get him to camp. Just don't see him playing his way into being drafted, and I don't see the player some do on here... even though he's been a solid player for us who has improved every year.
It's not bagging, it's just reality, he's not anywhere close to a star college player. Yogi was a star college player that was undrafted and barely clings to the NBA, so it's just laughable that anyone would think that a 6th year here would make him draftable unless he started drinking MJ's blood for next year
 
No one is saying Edey won’t get drafted, just late in the draft compared to 20+ years ago when he’d have been a lottery pick.

Also, Garza drafted at 52, is a G league player that got called up because of injuries, and has played less than half the season and got drafted at all because he a decent outside shot
He's a G league player? So he was drafted 52nd in the G league draft and had his contract converted to a 2 year G league deal? Ft Wayne Pistons and not Detroit? Hmm, and all this time I had it wrong. He's in the NBA and probably will be for several years, as I believe, will Edey. Only a couple teams win with the same script, so smart teams find players that can help them, even if not in the defined mold. A guy like Garza or Edey will make and stay on rosters because they have something they can do that many others can't, whether it's reliably defend and score in the post or step out and hit a 3. Race is a tweener in the NBA and doesn't excel at size, shooting, defense, etc... If he's ever to put on an NBA uniform, I think we both know it's going to be working his way up as FA and through the G League or overseas... and there's nothing wrong with that. You can keep fooling yourself, but the bottom line is you're just trying to invent justification for what you want, which is Race to return.
 
I actually think it would be a real detriment to the team if he stayed. Let's face it, there's no way he's getting drafted after another year. He'd be like approaching 25 and still makes a lot of mistakes he shouldn't. He's better than he was because he's stronger that kids 4-5 years younger. Outside of something homerun in the portal, we are not going to be better (almost definitely way worse than this year on paper). Until the roster starts turning, his spot is just time others should have or we begging recruiting towards now. I think we stand a chance of being better without him and TJD. Nobody is going to see potential in someone who has been here that long, is that old, and still very flawed and undersized for the NBA
Really silly.

Race has improved dramatically over the years. Him coming back a year in the era of the portal isn't a detriment at all. He's a very good two way player and have no issues with him taking a more prominent role if TJD moves on. Trust me, IU could do a lot worse than Race Thompson as a starting frontcourt player next year and in fact he's probably IU's realistic best option.
 
Really silly.

Race has improved dramatically over the years. Him coming back a year in the era of the portal isn't a detriment at all. He's a very good two way player and have no issues with him taking a more prominent role if TJD moves on. Trust me, IU could do a lot worse than Race Thompson as a starting frontcourt player next year and in fact he's probably IU's realistic best option.
Again, to what end? I think the portal is going to be fools gold more often than not for anyone that's not a college bball power. So, we get Race for another year and let's say pickup another solid post: then what? And, where does that leave us the next year? 2 more portal players? At some point if we're going to have a sustained rise, I believe it will be on the backs of a core group of good players. I'd definitely hit the portal this year if we have openings come June, but I'd be working my *ss off trying to see if we can't scare up a solid prospect who might decommit on a coaching change or a first year transfer. We need to develop a group of players and I don't think the stop-gap measure of a guy returning for a 6th year or a 1 year portal transfer helps get us there.
 
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Again, to what end? I think the portal is going to be fools gold more often than not for anyone that's not a college bball power. So, we get Race for another year and let's say pickup another solid post: then what? And, where does that leave us the next year? 2 more portal players? At some point if we're going to have a sustained rise, I believe it will be on the backs of a core group of good players. I'd definitely hit the portal this year if we have openings come June, but I'd be working my *ss off trying to see if we can't scare up a solid prospect who might decommit on a coaching change or a 1 year transfer. We need to develop a group of players and I don't think the stop-gap measure of a guy returning for a 6th year or a 1 year portal transfer helps get us there.
You think IU is in position to let Race walk after this year assuming he wants to come back? You think IU is ready to roll with Durr/Duncomb as it's primary frontcourt players or really think IU is going to hit a home run in the portal for a front court player better or more reliable than Thompson? I think that's nonsense.

Duncomb can still develop while playing a secondary role off the bench behind Thompson. It's always been suspected that Duncomb wasn't going to be a big contributor until he was an upperclassmen and you're still on that trajectory if Race comes back. IU will likely have 1-2 open scholarships next year once the incoming class hits campus. X is the only bucket getter on next years team assuming he's back. IU needs shooters/scorers in a bad way. Thompson is more than capable of being the primary frontcourt player in Woodson's offense and his numbers should continue to increase in a more prominent role. IF anything, he's more suited offensively in Woodson's scheme over TJD because he can actually score from outside of 5 feet.
 
If Race and X return, that’s a start. Still gonna need Bates, Geronimo, and Duncomb to make major leaps.
Duncomb.???
I want another complete turnover
I kinda like Bates and Geronimo..Even though he's limited..
Galloway is the only guy.. I personally will enjoy another yr of..
 
Duncomb.???
I want another complete turnover
I kinda like Bates and Geronimo..Even though he's limited..
Galloway is the only guy.. I personally will enjoy another yr of..
Never going to win consistently turning 8-9 guys over a year and it's silly to give up on a true freshman like Duncomb this early. Need X, Race, Bates, Geronimo, Galloway, Duncomb back for sure and I suspect Leal and Rob are back as well. That's 8 returning players + 3 incoming freshman which leaves you two open scholarships. Need to address guard/wing scoring and shooting. IU got 13 ppg between Kopp and Stewart who both averaged 25 mpg. That's why we're in the predicament we're in now.
 
You think IU is in position to let Race walk after this year assuming he wants to come back? You think IU is ready to roll with Durr/Duncomb as it's primary frontcourt players or really think IU is going to hit a home run in the portal for a front court player better or more reliable than Thompson? I think that's nonsense.

Duncomb can still develop while playing a secondary role off the bench behind Thompson. It's always been suspected that Duncomb wasn't going to be a big contributor until he was an upperclassmen and you're still on that trajectory if Race comes back. IU will likely have 1-2 open scholarships next year once the incoming class hits campus. X is the only bucket getter on next years team assuming he's back. IU needs shooters/scorers in a bad way. Thompson is more than capable of being the primary frontcourt player in Woodson's offense and his numbers should continue to increase in a more prominent role. IF anything, he's more suited offensively in Woodson's scheme over TJD because he can actually score from outside of 5 feet.
I get that what I'm proposing is risky, but you've not answered my questions: what do you expect out of a team next year with Race as the post? Also, what part of trying to find a promising recruit who decommits or transfer portal didn't you understand? I'm just f'n tired of losing and this group has not panned out, so I see it hard to believe we improve losing our best player and bringing back existing players. They'll never do it because it's not human nature but if we get Race and XJ back, we are better next year than the projection without them, but do you believe we are a tournament team? I think we'll be right back on the bubble, and likely the wrong side based on these last few year's results, and I'm beyond tired of that.
 
Another point, it doesn’t help recruiting when you have 5th and 6th year players penciled into spots, clinging to the possibility of just making the tournament.

Again, if you can’t make the tournament, may as well go 0-30 as far as I’m concerned.
 
I get that what I'm proposing is risky, but you've not answered my questions: what do you expect out of a team next year with Race as the post? Also, what part of trying to find a promising recruit who decommits or transfer portal didn't you understand? I'm just f'n tired of losing and this group has not panned out, so I see it hard to believe we improve losing our best player and bringing back existing players. They'll never do it because it's not human nature but if we get Race and XJ back, we are better next year than the projection without them, but do you believe we are a tournament team? I think we'll be right back on the bubble, and likely the wrong side based on these last few year's results, and I'm beyond tired of that.
Post play on both ends of the floor this year has never been an issue and Race is a big reason why. Team has struggled offensively because it has gotten nothing from off-guard perimeter scoring/shooting.

To answer your question; no IU isn't going to find a 2022 recruit better suited than Race Thompson nor do I think they are going to find a better front court prospect in the portal better than Race Thompson. Rave averaged 12 and 8 playing second fiddle to TJD in a crowded front court. Zero reason to think Race isn't capable of averaging 14-15 ppg as the prominent front court option next year.

We are a tournament team next year with better guard play. Pure and simple. Gotten absolutely nothing from Kopp and Stewart and still squarely on the bubble.
 
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Every time I heard someone say Race is gone, my question was where is going? He ain’t going pro (not in this country, yet). Is he transferring and starting over somewhere for his last season? Never seemed like a logical choice.
I'll admit his senior night speech didn't sound like someone who was returning but yes Indiana is the only place Race is playing college basketball. I don't think he'll ever be an NBA player but if he performs well in TJD's role next year could land a nice summer audition for an NBA squad before heading overseas.
 
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I just went back through the schedule this year, and dammit is it depressing to see how close this team was. We easily gave away 4 games in the conf (actually more like 6 but you can't win them all). That's the difference between being 22-8/13-7, the 4 seed in the B1G tourney with double bye, and probably 5 seed in the NCAA (and ranked), versus a probable NIT team (unless we show this Thurs/Friday at the very least).

So close. Have the talent, just not the ability to close games. RMK said many times, the key is not the will to win, it's the willingness to prepare to win.
We simply can’t shoot well enough from 3 or from the FT line. I’m happy we have a highly rated defense but we still struggle to score.
 
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I’m not particularly excited about the idea of having an even older team with the same personality of this one.

the cycle needs to be broken, and a fresh culture, identity and personality needs to take hold. Would like to see that done with a core group that can develop together over the years.
 
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Post play on both ends of the floor this year has never been an issue and Race is a big reason why. Team has struggled offensively because it has gotten nothing from off-guard perimeter scoring/shooting.

To answer your question; no IU isn't going to find a 2022 recruit better suited than Race Thompson nor do I think they are going to find a better front court prospect in the portal better than Race Thompson. Rave averaged 12 and 8 playing second fiddle to TJD in a crowded front court. Zero reason to think Race isn't capable of averaging 14-15 ppg as the prominent front court option next year.

We are a tournament team next year with better guard play. Pure and simple. Gotten absolutely nothing from Kopp and Stewart and still squarely on the bubble.

Also, I think our best lineup all year has been X, Phin, Galloway, Race, TJD, but most of the season at least one if not both of Phin/Galloway has been out or not 100% because of injuries.

Add 2 more consistent scoring threats into the 2/3 spot rotation (whether improvements out of Bates/Kopp or incoming freshman/transfers), that is a solid team that could also withstand some injuries and not completely fall apart.
 
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Again, if you can’t make the tournament, may as well go 0-30 as far as I’m concerned.
Why? This isn't the NBA where you get a lottery pick for being the worst team.

What is your realistic expectation for our frontcourt next year if both Race and TJD leave?
 
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If Race does come back he must return at the 4 with Woodson's ordering he develop more game outside the post. Put Durr and Duncomb at center where they belong competing for PT. Find a 2 or 3 scorer with shooting ability at every level. The D will be quite a bit better with PS & MK living somewhere else. With this approach Galloway and JG become even more valuable being able to play multiple positions.
Whup Meatchicken bad!!!
 
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Really silly.

Race has improved dramatically over the years. Him coming back a year in the era of the portal isn't a detriment at all. He's a very good two way player and have no issues with him taking a more prominent role if TJD moves on. Trust me, IU could do a lot worse than Race Thompson as a starting frontcourt player next year and in fact he's probably IU's realistic best option.
That's the point, they will do a lot worse regardless of anything and we'll have to accept it as kind of a rebuilding year, much like this one, but if we have to go through it again, let it be real rebuilding. I'm opposed to patching holes to through the portal just to sustain mediocrity. I got news too, the portal rules ain't gonna last forever, so in the words of MD to North Carolina ... "Get you a team"

He's been here 5 year's, he is not getting drafted to anywhere outside Ukraine, and he'd probably be a role player there. Why take up the spot, cut him, let him finish whatever degree he's working on, but don't take minutes away from the rest. IU has the "athlete bill of rights" or whatever they call it, not playing is not going to hurt him in life, he still gets the free academic benefit. He has zero pro basketball career potential, he should be concentrating on carving out something else and do the best at that
 
That's the point, they will do a lot worse regardless of anything and we'll have to accept it as kind of a rebuilding year, much like this one, but if we have to go through it again, let it be real rebuilding. I'm opposed to patching holes to through the portal just to sustain mediocrity. I got news too, the portal rules ain't gonna last forever, so in the words of MD to North Carolina ... "Get you a team"

He's been here 5 year's, he is not getting drafted to anywhere outside Ukraine, and he'd probably be a role player there. Why take up the spot, cut him, let him finish whatever degree he's working on, but don't take minutes away from the rest. IU has the "athlete bill of rights" or whatever they call it, not playing is not going to hurt him in life, he still gets the free academic benefit. He has zero pro basketball career potential, he should be concentrating on carving out something else and do the best at that
He can do both
 
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