Question for lawyers and those with POA experience.

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

As a general rule, all of the POA forms I draft for people are conditional, that is a doctor or judge has to declare the principal incapacitated for it to take effect.

What are good reasons, if any, to not do this? Why would someone who is perfectly capable want to give someone else an unconditional POA?

 

[IUCrazy2]

As a general rule, all of the POA forms I draft for people are conditional, that is a doctor or judge has to declare the principal incapacitated for it to take effect.

What are good reasons, if any, to not do this? Why would someone who is perfectly capable want to give someone else an unconditional POA?

Not a lawyer but maybe they have just made a habit of making really stupid decisions with their own money or whatever and they want a legal check on their decisions? (Never heard of anything like that personally, just spitballing.)

One I have seen in the past is for people who may be out of an area for a given time but they need someone back home that can sign paperwork for them (although usually conditions attached to that I suppose).

 

[Marvin the Martian]

As a general rule, all of the POA forms I draft for people are conditional, that is a doctor or judge has to declare the principal incapacitated for it to take effect.

What are good reasons, if any, to not do this? Why would someone who is perfectly capable want to give someone else an unconditional POA?

The obvious answer, to further a tv plot.

 

[UncleMark]

As a general rule, all of the POA forms I draft for people are conditional, that is a doctor or judge has to declare the principal incapacitated for it to take effect.

What are good reasons, if any, to not do this? Why would someone who is perfectly capable want to give someone else an unconditional POA?

I'm glad the ones we had for my parents (brother bought them online from Legal Zoom or something of that nature) didn't require that. It would have been yet another hurdle to get over. Witnesses were required. My dad was damaged enough (stroke) that the nursing home administrator who witnessed and/or notarized his was reluctant... but she seemed to be satisfied we weren't trying to take advantage of him and relented. Besides, they had a vested interest in dealing with me rather that my mother, who was showing her own deficits. With my mom, I just trotted her down to the bank and explained to her what we were doing (and why) in front of the bank manager and they were cool with it.

I suppose it all boils down to trust. Can you trust your kid or your wife or whoever to not take advantage of you? And what about the situations (like I found myself in) when your situation changes in the blink of an eye? Do you want to make it that much more difficult for the one you're asking to look out for you?

 

[Morrison]

As a general rule, all of the POA forms I draft for people are conditional, that is a doctor or judge has to declare the principal incapacitated for it to take effect.

What are good reasons, if any, to not do this? Why would someone who is perfectly capable want to give someone else an unconditional POA?

One reason would be the person doesn’t want the responsibility on their shoulders to settle family rivalries and unscrupulous intentions. They’d rather someone they trust make those decisions for them. Gets them off the hot seat, so to speak.

Im actually dealing with my ex being diagnosed with glioblastoma a year ago. She has no family to help her much and I’ve taken on the responsibility of taking her to appointments and treatments. She has a son by a previous marriage, in addition to ours. I’ve been told by people that I should get POA because the older son is irresponsible and clueless. I’m not sure what to do. Do you practice law in Cali?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

One reason would be the person doesn’t want the responsibility on their shoulders to settle family rivalries and unscrupulous intentions. They’d rather someone they trust make those decisions for them. Gets them off the hot seat, so to speak.

Im actually dealing with my ex being diagnosed with glioblastoma a year ago. She has no family to help her much and I’ve taken on the responsibility of taking her to appointments and treatments. She has a son by a previous marriage, in addition to ours. I’ve been told by people that I should get POA because the older son is irresponsible and clueless. I’m not sure what to do. Do you practice law in Cali?

Sorry, I don't. Thanks for your thoughts, though.

I'm glad the ones we had for my parents (brother bought them online from Legal Zoom or something of that nature) didn't require that. It would have been yet another hurdle to get over. Witnesses were required. My dad was damaged enough (stroke) that the nursing home administrator who witnessed and/or notarized his was reluctant... but she seemed to be satisfied we weren't trying to take advantage of him and relented. Besides, they had a vested interest in dealing with me rather that my mother, who was showing her own deficits. With my mom, I just trotted her down to the bank and explained to her what we were doing (and why) in front of the bank manager and they were cool with it.

I suppose it all boils down to trust. Can you trust your kid or your wife or whoever to not take advantage of you? And what about the situations (like I found myself in) when your situation changes in the blink of an eye? Do you want to make it that much more difficult for the one you're asking to look out for you?

Thanks for these thoughts, as well. I can definitely see how, assuming you can trust your family, the lack of red tape would be a blessing in a difficult time.

My clients generally appoint as agents the people who would be empowered to act on their behalf, anyway. For example, if someone cannot make medical decisions, the doctor will normally consult with the spouse. And the hassle of waiting for a ruling of incompetency is less of a hassle if both your names are on all the bills, anyway, so you don't have to worry about missing any payments while you go through the motions.

 

[UncleMark]

My clients generally appoint as agents the people who would be empowered to act on their behalf, anyway. For example, if someone cannot make medical decisions, the doctor will normally consult with the spouse.

So if these people are trusted enough to not abuse their authority after incapacitation, why wouldn't you trust them not to abuse their authority before incapacitation?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

So if these people are trusted enough to not abuse their authority after incapacitation, why wouldn't you trust them not to abuse their authority before incapacitation?

Good point.

 

[TMFT]

So if these people are trusted enough to not abuse their authority after incapacitation, why wouldn't you trust them not to abuse their authority before incapacitation?

And anything the POA does while the principal is still 100% can be automatically reversed by the principal. Like, POA tells doctor to do X medical procedure and principal is like, nah. It’s not going to happen.

It would obviously come down to trust, like you said, but I could see potential problems with some things financially if you give someone authority to write checks on your acct, for example. It’s basically like putting them jointly on the account. If they steal a bunch of money, it may not technically be stealing since they had full authorization.

This is why I’ve got a lady I refer out clients to on estate work.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

And anything the POA does while the principal is still 100% can be automatically reversed by the principal. Like, POA tells doctor to do X medical procedure and principal is like, nah. It’s not going to happen.

It would obviously come down to trust, like you said, but I could see potential problems with some things financially if you give someone authority to write checks on your acct, for example. It’s basically like putting them jointly on the account. If they steal a bunch of money, it may not technically be stealing since they had full authorization.

This is why I’ve got a lady I refer out clients to on estate work.

Oh, it's technically stealing. Or "conversion." Because the agent has a fiduciary duty to the principal. My concern has always been the hassle involved if someone goes off the reservation. Yeah, the principal is still in charge and has the ultimate right to undo bad actions, but how hard is that? If the unscrupulous child steals from the parent, is the parent really going to sue them for recovery?

But as Mark says, if that's the situation you're in, why have those people given any authority in any situation, regardless of capacity?

 

[NPT]

I definitely want my wife and daughter to have POA powers for me. It's save my wife from a lot of hassle a time or two. We already know each other's passwords into financial accounts so either one of us can do what we want. Some places (Chase for example) make it such a hassle to use a POA it's almost useless.

On Edit: The biggest reason we want POA powers for each other is because sometimes things need to be done in a hurry and I don't want to have to go to a doctor or judge to get something done because that is probably never a fast process.

 

[UncleMark]

I definitely want my wife and daughter to have POA powers for me. It's save my wife from a lot of hassle a time or two. We already know each other's passwords into financial accounts so either one of us can do what we want. Some places (Chase for example) make it such a hassle to use a POA it's almost useless.

We had to get a lawyer (friend of the family did it for kicks) to threaten to sue before Edward Jones would cooperate with us trying to get control of my dad's "play money" account.

 

[TMFT]

I do this personal PSA quite often to friends/family because I'm a personal injury plaintiff's attorney and people get killed/seriously hurt unexpectedly all the time.

Get an estate plan just in case the worst happens to make sure your family can smoothly transition if some tragedy strikes. Also strongly consider getting sufficient life insurance & an umbrella policy with uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage (kind of like a 2nd life insurance policy if something would happen in a car accident).

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I do this personal PSA quite often to friends/family because I'm a personal injury plaintiff's attorney and people get killed/seriously hurt unexpectedly all the time.

Get an estate plan just in case the worst happens to make sure your family can smoothly transition if some tragedy strikes. Also strongly consider getting sufficient life insurance & an umbrella policy with uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage (kind of like a 2nd life insurance policy if something would happen in a car accident).

Uninsured and underinsured coverage cannot be emphasized enough. Whatever your limits are, see about increasing them. Also, if you are like me, see if you can get coverage for bicycling too.

 

[TMFT]

Uninsured and underinsured coverage cannot be emphasized enough. Whatever your limits are, see about increasing them. Also, if you are like me, see if you can get coverage for bicycling too.

Where did you get your cycling coverage?

I worked a case in the last year where a cyclist was almost killed and we had to work really hard to stretch the $100k in liability limits to cover his bills, insurance subrogation, and still get him some compensation.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Where did you get your cycling coverage?

I worked a case in the last year where a cyclist was almost killed and we had to work really hard to stretch the $100k in liability limits to cover his bills, insurance subrogation, and still get him some compensation.

I represented a State Fatm agent. He got UM coverage for pedestrians which include cyclists. That was years ago when I was doing thousands of miles a year. Don’t know if it’s now available.

 

[HooDatGuy]

I know a lot about the law and various other lawyerings. I’m well educated, well versed, I know that situations like this POA-wise they’re very complex.

 

[NPT]

I do this personal PSA quite often to friends/family because I'm a personal injury plaintiff's attorney and people get killed/seriously hurt unexpectedly all the time.

Get an estate plan just in case the worst happens to make sure your family can smoothly transition if some tragedy strikes. Also strongly consider getting sufficient life insurance & an umbrella policy with uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage (kind of like a 2nd life insurance policy if something would happen in a car accident).

I think you are really missing the boat if you don't get an umbrella policy. It's not that expensive and an insurance company is gonna really fight to keep from paying out a million or two. I think ours is around $250 for 2 million coverage (with kids it would be more).

 

[NPT]

As a general rule, all of the POA forms I draft for people are conditional, that is a doctor or judge has to declare the principal incapacitated for it to take effect.

What are good reasons, if any, to not do this? Why would someone who is perfectly capable want to give someone else an unconditional POA?

One time that I sure wished we had POA powers for each other was when our home sold (80s) and I was in Ireland for work. Trying to fax those long forms across to Ireland for me to sign and then faxing the signed copy back was really a headache. I decided right then that we needed POA powers for each other.