Public Education

[Marvin the Martian]

In a thread on health care, Crazed compared public health care to public education. That is a great segue for a thread I have wanted to start on public education. In Outliers, Gladwell discusses education. In particular he references a study by Karl Alexander of Johns Hopkins. That link is to a pdf on the study from the American Sociological Review.

What is interesting from the study is they tested children at the beginning and end of school years. What they found was that that lower socio-economic kids started behind upper socio-economic kids. No surprise. The surprise is that during the school year, the lower socio-economic kids did as well as their upper peers. During the school year, kids from lower classes actually outperformed kids from the highest class, but were behind the middle class.

But during the summer, kids from the lower socio-economic class showed a decline in scores. Middle kids a very slight improvement. Upper kids had a significant improvement.

In Gladwell's book, he blames (too strong of a word) western agriculture. In the west, agriculture was a spring and fall thing, and didn't take too many hours. One study suggested French farmers worked 1000 hours per year. In addition, fields have to be left bare every few years. This gives rise to the idea that kids need time off from school.

In Asia, rice farming was key. Rice farmers worked 3000 hours per year. Rice paddies never were left fallow, in fact they worked better the more they were used. Asians learned a different recipe for success than westerners. That shows up in the amount of time we spend in school compared to our Asian brothers and sisters.

In addition, he makes the point our math is too cumbersome. By age six, Americans are a full year behind Chinese. He gives a lot of examples, but among them is why do we say eighteen and eightyone? In both cases, the eight is first but written the 1 is first in eighteen. To an older person, that makes sense. To a young child, that is confusing. He suggests western representations of numbers are far harder than eastern, putting our kids behind immediately. An example, numbers in Chinese are the shortest words making them easy to remember.

That second point was interesting, about the way we treat numbers. The point that learning IN SCHOOL is not that different based on socio-economic status is the main point. Gladwell likes the Knowledge is Power Program (KIPP) schools. KIPP is a very labor intensive school system, kids put in far more hours than their peers. But if there is something to Alexander's study, why aren't we on year around school? I'm the first to say I hate the idea. But if we go where the science leads, it appears we need year around schools. It appears, from that study, kids aren't being failed by the school system but by home.

As an addendum, earlier I do think I had a thread about an earlier chapter that mentioned how lower income kids are turned loose on the streets for their summer activities and higher income kids have a structured summer with camps, museums, trips, etc. That reference was in an earlier chapter and is why kids from higher incomes keep learning over the summer while those of us who spent their summers playing pickup basketball did not (I was clearly in the basketball group through middle school).

I don't know about the similarity to public health care. If we get stuck into bad ideas because we have always done it this way (summer vacation), maybe it won't work. But if we, as a nation, develop more of a go where the science leads philosophy we just might get all these systems to work better. Even if I would have hated year around school for myself (or my kids).

 

[stollcpa]

In a thread on health care, Crazed compared public health care to public education. That is a great segue for a thread I have wanted to start on public education. In Outliers, Gladwell discusses education. In particular he references a study by Karl Alexander of Johns Hopkins. That link is to a pdf on the study from the American Sociological Review.

What is interesting from the study is they tested children at the beginning and end of school years. What they found was that that lower socio-economic kids started behind upper socio-economic kids. No surprise. The surprise is that during the school year, the lower socio-economic kids did as well as their upper peers. During the school year, kids from lower classes actually outperformed kids from the highest class, but were behind the middle class.

But during the summer, kids from the lower socio-economic class showed a decline in scores. Middle kids a very slight improvement. Upper kids had a significant improvement.

In Gladwell's book, he blames (too strong of a word) western agriculture. In the west, agriculture was a spring and fall thing, and didn't take too many hours. One study suggested French farmers worked 1000 hours per year. In addition, fields have to be left bare every few years. This gives rise to the idea that kids need time off from school.

In Asia, rice farming was key. Rice farmers worked 3000 hours per year. Rice paddies never were left fallow, in fact they worked better the more they were used. Asians learned a different recipe for success than westerners. That shows up in the amount of time we spend in school compared to our Asian brothers and sisters.

In addition, he makes the point our math is too cumbersome. By age six, Americans are a full year behind Chinese. He gives a lot of examples, but among them is why do we say eighteen and eightyone? In both cases, the eight is first but written the 1 is first in eighteen. To an older person, that makes sense. To a young child, that is confusing. He suggests western representations of numbers are far harder than eastern, putting our kids behind immediately. An example, numbers in Chinese are the shortest words making them easy to remember.

That second point was interesting, about the way we treat numbers. The point that learning IN SCHOOL is not that different based on socio-economic status is the main point. Gladwell likes the Knowledge is Power Program (KIPP) schools. KIPP is a very labor intensive school system, kids put in far more hours than their peers. But if there is something to Alexander's study, why aren't we on year around school? I'm the first to say I hate the idea. But if we go where the science leads, it appears we need year around schools. It appears, from that study, kids aren't being failed by the school system but by home.

As an addendum, earlier I do think I had a thread about an earlier chapter that mentioned how lower income kids are turned loose on the streets for their summer activities and higher income kids have a structured summer with camps, museums, trips, etc. That reference was in an earlier chapter and is why kids from higher incomes keep learning over the summer while those of us who spent their summers playing pickup basketball did not (I was clearly in the basketball group through middle school).

I don't know about the similarity to public health care. If we get stuck into bad ideas because we have always done it this way (summer vacation), maybe it won't work. But if we, as a nation, develop more of a go where the science leads philosophy we just might get all these systems to work better. Even if I would have hated year around school for myself (or my kids).

Interesting post. Year round school seems like a no brainer. Can't wait to read the study tonight.

 

[hoosboot]

In a thread on health care, Crazed compared public health care to public education. That is a great segue for a thread I have wanted to start on public education. In Outliers, Gladwell discusses education. In particular he references a study by Karl Alexander of Johns Hopkins. That link is to a pdf on the study from the American Sociological Review.

What is interesting from the study is they tested children at the beginning and end of school years. What they found was that that lower socio-economic kids started behind upper socio-economic kids. No surprise. The surprise is that during the school year, the lower socio-economic kids did as well as their upper peers. During the school year, kids from lower classes actually outperformed kids from the highest class, but were behind the middle class.

But during the summer, kids from the lower socio-economic class showed a decline in scores. Middle kids a very slight improvement. Upper kids had a significant improvement.

In Gladwell's book, he blames (too strong of a word) western agriculture. In the west, agriculture was a spring and fall thing, and didn't take too many hours. One study suggested French farmers worked 1000 hours per year. In addition, fields have to be left bare every few years. This gives rise to the idea that kids need time off from school.

In Asia, rice farming was key. Rice farmers worked 3000 hours per year. Rice paddies never were left fallow, in fact they worked better the more they were used. Asians learned a different recipe for success than westerners. That shows up in the amount of time we spend in school compared to our Asian brothers and sisters.

In addition, he makes the point our math is too cumbersome. By age six, Americans are a full year behind Chinese. He gives a lot of examples, but among them is why do we say eighteen and eightyone? In both cases, the eight is first but written the 1 is first in eighteen. To an older person, that makes sense. To a young child, that is confusing. He suggests western representations of numbers are far harder than eastern, putting our kids behind immediately. An example, numbers in Chinese are the shortest words making them easy to remember.

That second point was interesting, about the way we treat numbers. The point that learning IN SCHOOL is not that different based on socio-economic status is the main point. Gladwell likes the Knowledge is Power Program (KIPP) schools. KIPP is a very labor intensive school system, kids put in far more hours than their peers. But if there is something to Alexander's study, why aren't we on year around school? I'm the first to say I hate the idea. But if we go where the science leads, it appears we need year around schools. It appears, from that study, kids aren't being failed by the school system but by home.

As an addendum, earlier I do think I had a thread about an earlier chapter that mentioned how lower income kids are turned loose on the streets for their summer activities and higher income kids have a structured summer with camps, museums, trips, etc. That reference was in an earlier chapter and is why kids from higher incomes keep learning over the summer while those of us who spent their summers playing pickup basketball did not (I was clearly in the basketball group through middle school).

I don't know about the similarity to public health care. If we get stuck into bad ideas because we have always done it this way (summer vacation), maybe it won't work. But if we, as a nation, develop more of a go where the science leads philosophy we just might get all these systems to work better. Even if I would have hated year around school for myself (or my kids).

It seems like the big similarity between healthcare and education is a hesitation to innovate in some areas because of a devotion to the way we have always done things and a general resistance to data because of ideology (so, basically...sociology.)

 

[Fro]

It seems like the big similarity between healthcare and education is a hesitation to innovate in some areas because of a devotion to the way we have always done things and a general resistance to data because of ideology (so, basically...sociology.)

We also see schools changing methods without peer-reviewed studies saying one method is better than the other because it sounds "good" (i.e. block-scheduling).

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

In addition, he makes the point our math is too cumbersome. By age six, Americans are a full year behind Chinese. He gives a lot of examples, but among them is why do we say eighteen and eightyone? In both cases, the eight is first but written the 1 is first in eighteen. To an older person, that makes sense. To a young child, that is confusing. He suggests western representations of numbers are far harder than eastern, putting our kids behind immediately. An example, numbers in Chinese are the shortest words making them easy to remember.

Couple of comments here:

1) Chinese, as with many Asian languages, is much more confusing than any English IYAM, so I don't buy that argument unless you are using the romantic languages as examples.
2) Being good at math isn't everything, even in this world of data and analytics. Having a well-rounded lifestyle is healthy and fruitful, particularly when it comes to personal acceptance. There have been numerous studies documenting the stress and anxiety faced by Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and other Asian kids because of the expectations and demands. Anecdotally, there are noticeable differences in socialization, leadership, and problem-solving that you see between Western kids and those from stricter schooling backgrounds. I've used the inability of Chinese McDonald's employees to understand the concept of a hamburger (cheeseburger without cheese) before on this board.

But if there is something to Alexander's study, why aren't we on year around school? I'm the first to say I hate the idea. But if we go where the science leads, it appears we need year around schools. It appears, from that study, kids aren't being failed by the school system but by home.

I'd like to see more research about the pros and cons from year-round school, and its effects on the developing mind.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Chinese, as with many Asian languages, is much more confusing than any English IYAM, so I don't buy that argument unless you are using the romantic languages as examples.

You cannot be serious.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Couple of comments here:

1) Chinese, as with many Asian languages, is much more confusing than any English IYAM, so I don't buy that argument unless you are using the romantic languages as examples.
2) Being good at math isn't everything, even in this world of data and analytics. Having a well-rounded lifestyle is healthy and fruitful, particularly when it comes to personal acceptance. There have been numerous studies documenting the stress and anxiety faced by Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and other Asian kids because of the expectations and demands. Anecdotally, there are noticeable differences in socialization, leadership, and problem-solving that you see between Western kids and those from stricter schooling backgrounds. I've used the inability of Chinese McDonald's employees to understand the concept of a hamburger (cheeseburger without cheese) before on this board.



I'd like to see more research about the pros and cons from year-round school, and its effects on the developing mind.

Here is part of the rationale for Chinese math, the length of their numbers. The average westerner can memorize 7 numbers, the average Chinese 9. It is just because their words are shorter.

The math advantage comes from this. 893 is written in Chinese as 8 hundreds, 9 tens, and 3. It always follows that route, there isn't an eighteen and eightyone sort of confusion. His argument is that 8 hundreds, 9 tens, and 3 is easier for a kid to remember. It is close to the US system, but his argument is for a 5 year old being consistent in rules makes it a lot easier. (the other issues are 11 and twelve, why not oneteen or teenone and twoteen/teentwo and I guess thirteen since thir isn't a number).

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Here is part of the rationale for Chinese math, the length of their numbers. The average westerner can memorize 7 numbers, the average Chinese 9. It is just because their words are shorter.

The math advantage comes from this. 893 is written in Chinese as 8 hundreds, 9 tens, and 3. It always follows that route, there isn't an eighteen and eightyone sort of confusion. His argument is that 8 hundreds, 9 tens, and 3 is easier for a kid to remember. It is close to the US system, but his argument is for a 5 year old being consistent in rules makes it a lot easier. (the other issues are 11 and twelve, why not oneteen or teenone and twoteen/teentwo and I guess thirteen since thir isn't a number).

I don't buy all of that. "Eight hundred ninety-three" means the same thing as "Eight hundreds, nine tens, and three." If you are a native English speaker, you don't have to do any extra work, because your brain treats "-ty" as it would "tens, and." That's why a native English speaker can hear something like "Eleventy-one" and know immediately what that number is supposed to be.

Now, if he wants to argue that non-native English speakers have trouble with math in English, whatever, but it's not a very good argument for why our students aren't as good at math.

 

[zeke4ahs]

My school went to year round, or balanced calendars 20 years ago. It's common sense that it would be helpful, but studies don't necessarily prove that. In a traditional calendar, you use nearly a month trying to make up for what many kids lost over the summer. In a balanced calendar, the breaks are shorter, so the children retain more. We also had both enrichment and remediation over each break, instead of a student having to wait 9 months for summer school. My school had a change in demographics , parent participation, and multiple other factors that made it seem like if scores were holding their own, we were doing ok. Just had dinner with a teacher friend and we were discussing some of our mutual students. It can be really depressing, as several of the ones we discussed were at risk kids, identified in first grade. So many of these have endearing personalities and were assigned to the very best teachers at every grade level and given every ounce of energy and love you can give a child. And yet still, we invariably hear of these kids ending up in gangs or jail before they get out of high school. Environment is truly a hardship so difficult to overcome. Of course, therebare also many surprise success stories too, but often these are the kids that came from a good family background, but were really immature, ADD, or just not interested in learning when they were young. It's hard to overcome the background many of these children have.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

My school went to year round, or balanced calendars 20 years ago. It's common sense that it would be helpful, but studies don't necessarily prove that. In a traditional calendar, you use nearly a month trying to make up for what many kids lost over the summer. In a balanced calendar, the breaks are shorter, so the children retain more. We also had both enrichment and remediation over each break, instead of a student having to wait 9 months for summer school. My school had a change in demographics , parent participation, and multiple other factors that made it seem like if scores were holding their own, we were doing ok. Just had dinner with a teacher friend and we were discussing some of our mutual students. It can be really depressing, as several of the ones we discussed were at risk kids, identified in first grade. So many of these have endearing personalities and were assigned to the very best teachers at every grade level and given every ounce of energy and love you can give a child. And yet still, we invariably hear of these kids ending up in gangs or jail before they get out of high school. Environment is truly a hardship so difficult to overcome. Of course, therebare also many surprise success stories too, but often these are the kids that came from a good family background, but were really immature, ADD, or just not interested in learning when they were young. It's hard to overcome the background many of these children have.

Instead of having numerous month-long breaks, or however long they are, has anyone considered truly going year-round, but having a shorter week? Say, classes from Monday to Thursday, and Friday reserved specifically for enrichment activities. Then they could still have a full week off here and there during holidays and whatnot.

 

[sglowrider]

Couple of comments here:

1) Chinese, as with many Asian languages, is much more confusing than any English IYAM, so I don't buy that argument unless you are using the romantic languages as examples.
2) Being good at math isn't everything, even in this world of data and analytics. Having a well-rounded lifestyle is healthy and fruitful, particularly when it comes to personal acceptance. There have been numerous studies documenting the stress and anxiety faced by Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and other Asian kids because of the expectations and demands. Anecdotally, there are noticeable differences in socialization, leadership, and problem-solving that you see between Western kids and those from stricter schooling backgrounds. I've used the inability of Chinese McDonald's employees to understand the concept of a hamburger (cheeseburger without cheese) before on this board.



I'd like to see more research about the pros and cons from year-round school, and its effects on the developing mind.

Maybe its just you?

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Here is part of the rationale for Chinese math, the length of their numbers. The average westerner can memorize 7 numbers, the average Chinese 9. It is just because their words are shorter.

The math advantage comes from this. 893 is written in Chinese as 8 hundreds, 9 tens, and 3. It always follows that route, there isn't an eighteen and eightyone sort of confusion. His argument is that 8 hundreds, 9 tens, and 3 is easier for a kid to remember. It is close to the US system, but his argument is for a 5 year old being consistent in rules makes it a lot easier. (the other issues are 11 and twelve, why not oneteen or teenone and twoteen/teentwo and I guess thirteen since thir isn't a number).

sometimes people just way overthink things.

 

[Optimist13]

Teachers unions are roadblock to possible solutions

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Interesting post. Year round school seems like a no brainer. Can't wait to read the study tonight.

i'll take year round summer vacation thank you.

what good is knowledge or anything that comes of it, if we're all working all the time from cradle to grave.

is it better to have a yacht you never get to enjoy because you're working all the time, and even in the few moments to yourself you do have, you're forced into worrying about work so much you can't enjoy it?

or is it better to have a modest fishing boat you get to enjoy all the time by yourself or with friends and family.

work work work 24/7/365 from birth to death, is a mantra being shoved down our throat more and more everyday.

and no doubt that mantra is being driven by those who benefit financially from other people's work and knowledge.

i'm so glad i lived when we were allowed to enjoy our childhood, and i deeply resent those who wish to rob future generations of theirs.

life is short, enjoy it while you can.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Teachers unions are roadblock to possible solutions

In what way?

 

[zeke4ahs]

i'll take year round summer vacation thank you.

what good is knowledge or anything that comes of it, if we're all working all the time from cradle to grave.

is it better to have a yacht you never get to enjoy because you're working all the time, and even in the few moments to yourself you do have, you're forced into worrying about work so much you can't enjoy it?

or is it better to have a modest fishing boat you get to enjoy all the time by yourself or with friends and family.

work work work 24/7/365 from birth to death, is a mantra being shoved down our throat more and more everyday.

and no doubt that mantra is being driven by those who benefit financially from other people's work and knowledge.

i'm so glad i lived when we were allowed to enjoy our childhood, and i deeply resent those who wish to rob future generations of theirs.

life is short, enjoy it while you can.

Why can't you enjoy vacations at all different times of the year? Most kids are bored during the summer before it's halfway over. I loved our year round schedule and loved being able to take breaks during the year, not just three months at summer. We always had a wait list to get into the school, because families really enjoyed the schedule. I do think that's the reason Goat's 4 day idea wouldn't work though. It would be interesting to pilot something like that, especially in an at risk area.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Why can't you enjoy vacations at all different times of the year? Most kids are bored during the summer before it's halfway over. I loved our year round schedule and loved being able to take breaks during the year, not just three months at summer. We always had a wait list to get into the school, because families really enjoyed the schedule. I do think that's the reason Goat's 4 day idea wouldn't work though. It would be interesting to pilot something like that, especially in an at risk area.

what "families really enjoy", is year round govt supplied day care.

and no one i ever knew got bored half way through summer vacation, but perhaps that's because we (kids), were allowed to be far more self reliant back then.

a while back i read an article citing that kids today have had the world they are allowed to roam and explore by themselves shrunk by 90 percent. (which no doubt is true).

it talked about how we (kids) used to leave home in the morning, and our parents wouldn't see us again till that night. in the mean time we were on our own to play and explore all day.

today, parents hover over their kids like crazy.

couldn't find that article, but this older one touches on some of the same points.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/how-far-children-can-wander_b_1704366.html

 

[zeke4ahs]

what "families really enjoy", is year round govt supplied day care.

and no one i ever knew got bored half way through summer vacation, but perhaps that's because we (kids), were allowed to be far more self reliant back then.

a while back i read an article citing that kids today have had the world they are allowed to roam and explore by themselves shrunk by 90 percent. (which no doubt is true).

it talked about how we (kids) used to leave home in the morning, and our parents wouldn't see us again till that night. in the mean time we were on our own to play and explore all day.

today, parents hover over their kids like crazy.

couldn't find that article, but this older one touches on some of the same points.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/how-far-children-can-wander_b_1704366.html

Honestly, my guess is I probably know a little more about what the families enjoyed about it than you do. It's a different world now than it was back then.