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Overall state of the program (long)

outlawyer

Sophomore
Feb 26, 2006
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Maybe now is not the best time to evaluate the overall state of the program, but in the off season I don't think about it as much. So, here's where we are:

We are an "also-ran" type of program. Too much dust on the banners, last one in 1987, glory days long past. We struggle to maintain mediocrity in the B1G. Yes, IU projected to finish low in B1G before season started, looked like that projection was in the toilet, but here we go. We (still) should get 20 wins this season, but that is far from certain. If the schedule were tweaked just a litle, we'd already be off the bubble and looking at NIT at best. Imagine if we had only 1 game with Rutgers, or 2 with Wisky, or the Minny or hawkEYE games were away? Fortunate we won at Neb and at ILL, those gave us a glimmer of hope that the PUkes sweep takes away. Tough conference, I know, but traditional powers seem to stay at a high level while we do have not been able to do so, at least since the early 1990s.

I fear the coaching carousel negative effect. Some programs weather it just fine, but IU not so well. pUKes went through the terrible hire of Billy G, ditched him, and righted their ship. Few of us agree that we would want IU's ship righted in that fashion, but pUKes made a change to achieve their goal/regain a top-level program they way they wanted it to be. NC made a mistake with Matt Doherty, but rebounded well (again, at IU we do want athletes to attend and complete actual college classes). Still, NC made a change and got the results it wanted. UCLA is perhaps a model of the coaching carousel negative effect, though Howland took them to 3 straight FF. I love SA but he won't bring the Bruins back to their glory days. I love CTC, probably a good hire at the time, but maybe for only a limited time. Program hit rock-bottom with the bad hire of KS. When IU hired CTC in 2008, Brad Stevens had just one year of head coaching under his belt, no doubt IU administration wanted more of a "proven" coach rather than using an unproven one to rebuild the program from the ash heap it was. I cannot fault the IU admin for that decision at that time. But, I fear the merry-go-round may continue if/when another change is made as bad timing for IU basketball coaching changes is the norm, not the exception.

Other B1G programs seem to load up, and stay loaded, for their desired levels of success. I cannot imagine Ryan, Izzo, Matta, Beilein being shown the door before retirement. Turgeon might be in that class, and Tim Miles might get there. These coaches seem to win constantly with the talent they get, or is it they get the talen they need to win at a constant level. Either way, IU has better BB history than all of these programs combined, but IU's maintenance of mediocrity has put CTC on a warm, if not at times hot, seat. Many think he is in over his head or is otherwise not the right guy to lead IU back to the top. Time will tell. But, we're in year 7 and we have 2 S16s to show for that (thank you CZ). Otherwise, we would likely have already been on another post-RMK coach.

What to do, where to go? Don't know, just frustrated at the status quo. Struggling to get into the NCAAT (that is, one of top 68 in the country) is not where any of us think we should be.
 
OK, so I took the time to read your state of the program post. Care to give an opinion?

1. Are you happy with where we are, coming off of what happened last year?

2. What are your opinions if we, #1...lose out and don't make the tournament, or #2 win 2 of the next 4 and lose our first BTT game and slide in as a 9 seed or lower?

3. What is your opinion of Tom Crean? When would you make a change??
 
One thing

There are 32 auto bids, so you have to be one of the top 37 teams (when you include BTT auto bid) to get in the dance - not truly top 68.

Palm's updated bracketology this morning has us among his top 24 (6 seed).

But yes, I agree with you - we should be and need to be better.

Bracketology
 
Change is needed...great programs do not have patience for mediocrity. See Alabama football...they struggled landing their guy after Bear but now they have Nick Saban.

IU needs to identify their man and do what it takes to land him if they are serious about winning(Stevens). If not keep Crean and be an average/below average program.
 
1. Not sure happy is the right word, but I am pleasantly surprised that we've done as well as we have this season given the lack of height in the playing roster. Last year was a deep disappointment. Still not sure "happy" describes it, more "satisfied," I think, at least to this point.

2. If #1, I think the talk of coach-changing intensifies and may be a self-fulfilling prophecy by end of next season without a miracle turn-around. Roster will not foreseeably change much. If #2, and if a one-and-done NCAAT appearance, probably not much different than #1. Getting to the S16? One of those "miracles," I suppose, that would kick the can down the road for another couple of years.

3. I like CTC. I love his enthusiasm. I love his energy. I thought his hire was a good one, but I really didn't know much except his FF run with DWade. My fear is that he's reached his top. The FF run was DWade, not CTC. Our successive S16s were CZ, not CTC. What would a top-line coach have done with our CZ teams? FF at least his soph season. I'm not a coach, but after UofL tore up Syracuse's zone in the Big East tournament, I would think that game would have been replayed for the team every day as primary prep for the Orange. Don't know what the prep was, but Syracuse was predictable and we seriously underperformed and were not even in the game. I have stayed out of the fray on his coaching ability, not my profession, but it does seem he does not make adjustments well, whether game prep, halftime, or just in-game coaching. Even though I think the best of him, if it was just on coaching and results, I would have made the change after last season. I would make the change after this season (barring a miracle). I would make the change after next season. But, it's more than just coaching and results--it's the money. IU went long and deep with CTC, so I say stay with him for 2-3 more seasons, no extensions under any circumstances (that's right, not even a FF or NC banner). If results stay (as I fear) mediocre, at that point we can make a change.
 
It's a TC roller Coaster and this year is an "up"

We don't have a coach that will do more with less, and consistently get us to the NCAAs and be a BT contender. Instead, we are going to see wild swings each year, and every year will be a factor of the previous year.

This is a "good" Tom Crean year. Our remaining schedule is far too easy for us to miss the NCAAs, and when it is all said and done, we will outperform expectations. But, that doesn't say as much about this season as it did about the last one. Because last year was such a bomb, expectations were ratcheted way down. And every year of the Tom Crean roller coaster has been like that.

year 1 6-25 1-17 11th
year 2 10-21 4-14 T-9th
year 3 12-20 3-15 11th
year 4 27-9 11-7 5th
year 5 29-7 14-4 1st
year 6 17-15 7-11 T-8th


Year 2 saw a little improvement over year 1. Year 3 should have seen a big jump from year 2, but we regressed. That was a very disappointing year, and like last season, resulted in lowered expectations for the next year, year 4. Year 4 saw a big improvement but at the time it seemed like we were outperforming expectations, and the team was a surprise. It shouldn't have seemed like that at the time, however, it was just that year 3 was so bad and we ratcheted down expectations.

IU will be perpetually rebuilding under Crean, as he has said that is what he wants to do. Because of this we will never be developing as a team over the years and just be replacing cogs in a system.

Today many IU fans are frustrated because we lost to the PUkes. But, this is the program that we have right now, and ironically this is a GOOD season. Often we are told by people here that we should just enjoy the season, let things play out, don't fret, stop complaining, stop being so miserable. And, maybe they have a point. If we are destined to have the program that we have under TC, we should probably just enjoy it.

The Roller Coaster is soaring this year. I guess it doesn't really matter that the main reason is that we had nowhere to go but up after last year destroyed expectations. It's still headed up.


images


This post was edited on 2/20 11:16 AM by .Gerdis
 
I think we need to get out had out of the sand a little


as a program and as a fan base because we need to stop living in the past and try to move on to the 21st century. All the programs you have mentioned changed with the times but it seems like this program stays in the past and they are afraid to make changes. We all want to be purist such as no naming rights to the AH or the no names on the jersey but in today's culture that might not be the best way to go about things.
 
I am afraid of NOT making changes. You are right-

our program is afraid to make changes.
 
Re: I think we need to get out had out of the sand a little


Those things are not that big a deal...its poor coaching hires that has been the downfall of the program. Lots of programs hang on to there traditions. bama still has the same old uniforms and helmets as the Bear Bryant era...same for OSU. What those programs did is went out and paid to get a great coach.
 
Can't disagree with you, Smitty. I suppose the IU admin needs to decide whether it wants a top-level "great" program or is satisfied with mediocrity. Then, the decision is easy. Also agree with Stevens. Seems a no brainer. Like the reference to Bama FB. Nick Saban had what many might have thought was the "dream job" at LSU, and won a NC. Went to NFL for a couple of years, not successful. The Alabama job opened up, and the Tide got him. Not sure of Stevens' trajectory with the Celtics, but they're under .400 again this year and outside looking in to the playoffs. I cannot believe Stevens would enjoy that type of result, even for the money, if the IU job opened for him. I think he'd take it, especially with another year or two of poor results with the Celtics.
 
Ugh. Our issues is we've been way to slow to react. Like hanging on to a

bad relationship when you know it's a bad one but you want to be nice.

Davis should have been gone two years before he was.

Crean should have been gone after that disasterous year 3 when we finished dead last and Stevens was coming off his 2nd title trip.

Kentucky quickly realized that Billy Clyde wasn't the right mix so them moved quickly and didn't let it suffer and bleed.

Sampson was here for less than two years and in that time had us leading the Big Ten and fighting for a top 3 seed while being ranked #7th in the country.

Less than two years.

Fix the leadership (the coach) and get some positive momentum back into the program.

We have a state of the art practice facility. We have a passionate fan base. We're still on national TV more than any other Big Ten team including Wisconsin. We still have a brand.

Give the new coach a 4 year deal and constantly evaluate.

Stop being scared. The failure to act is what is sucking this program dry.

In the past 20 years, 13 has been led by mediocre coaches (Davis and Crean). Crean is in year frikken 7. YEAR 7!! Good lord.
 
there are a lot of fans living in the past


I am not talking about fans being afraid for a coaching change but things around the program that they want to hold on to that really is not that important to the success of a program. Some still can't go of the past so they can see the future and to me that hurts the program going forward.
 
Re: Ugh. Our issues is we've been way to slow to react. Like hanging on to a


exactly!
 
I agree with all of that


I am not saying the fans are the reason we are in this situation but the fans still lives in the past and concentrate on that while the rest of the programs move on to the future.
 
Nope - b/c one of those auto bids is a BTT auto bid

so we have an extra chance at getting in - meaning we need to be top 37

This post was edited on 2/20 11:36 AM by fivestarlocks
 
Is our remaining schedule easy?

I agree with almost all of your points, but I do not like the matchups vs. Michigan State and Iowa and a trip to Northwestern doesn't have me feeling warm and fuzzy either. If ever there was a "must-win", it's the Rutgers game.
 
It doesn't hurt at all. It's a brand, it actually helps.

College coaches are the single most important resource in your program. They either attract or repel recruits. They develop the roster and the style of play that will lead to success or failure.

If Bill Self or Calipari someway left their school's and came to Indiana (not saying we want them but if they did)...recruits would want to play at Indiana and they would continue to win at the same level that they are currently.

This is like arguing about the color of the kitchen appliances instead of the roof of the house just caved in.
 
Suppose the coach you pointed out

Is not interested. That's where it would get interesting. I've seen some folks here say that unless that one person can be secured, no change should be made until he is. I think that's ludicrous. I think the program is headed in the same direction as the Russian Ruble in terms of value.
 
I was speaking in relative terms

Northwestern may have a winning record versus IU in the TC era, yet this is a BAD NU team. I'll be at that game, as I am almost always in Evanston for this one. It will be at least 60-40% red. AS far as road games in the B1G go, this is as easy as it gets.......except versus Rutgers. While MSU is improved, this is a down year for them. Playing them and the H-eyes at home should be 2 home wins.

Don't get me wrong, we could lose any of these games. We should be favored in all of them. Easy may not be the right term, but we have 2 road games against bottom feeders, and 2 home games versus middle of the pack conference teams.
 
Re: Suppose the coach you pointed out


A change needs to be made, no doubt about that but I think they go in with who they want(stevens) and see what he wants and if he is interested. If not I think you have your other top 3 canidates...Marshall, Smart, and possibly A Archie Miller or Bryce Drew type.

Creans style and roster management issues will never have IU as a consistent top 25 program and that is setting the bar low...as an IU fan and a supposed Blue Blood we should be a consistent top 5-10 team.
 
This living in the past idea is just mumbo jumbo....

IU has landed more top 75 talent than any other team in the Big 10 since '09 and only slightly trails MSU and OSU in the post Knight era. If Candy Striped pants, Assembly Hall, dusty Banners and no names on jerseys are not having an effect on recruiting, then exactly where are these things hurting us? Do our traditions somehow make it more difficult for the staff to coach the team?
 
Re: This living in the past idea is just mumbo jumbo....


Exactly...like I said the big time programs still have their traditions and old arenas.
 
Exactly ...

we've also recruited the national scene very well in the "living in the past era" . This program has an inherent draw and recruiting base, it only needs the proper leadership.
 
If we are talking about being elite

and people want to compare us to the Duke's and the Uk's of the world just having a lot of top 75 players are not going to do it. Those programs all get multiple top 20 players in each class and right now they both had 9 McDAA on their team this year. it is not so much the tradition that is hurting us but the fans and the programs unwillingness to change with the times.
 
Depends what Iowa team shows up


I think at times Iowa is a very soft team and plays little defense and don't use their bigs in the right way. if they decide to use their bigs then we will be in trouble but when we are on offense I think we will be able to get better shots than we did last night.
 
Re: If we are talking about being elite


Change with what? What do the fans need to change? Expecting a winning program? IU just needs a quality coach and it will be back where it should be. Lousiville is a top program now because they hired Pitino, not because of the new areana. Wisky is a top program because of Bo Ryan, not because of a new arena.
 
having all those things help a coach


get better players but you are right that you need a hof coach to get to that level. I am talking about some of the people that can't get passed that RMK is not here anymore and won't let it go
 
+1000...

IU has been a p**** since 1999. Fire Crean. Not because he's a horrible coach but because he isn't a great coach. I actually love watching this years team play (most of the time)and the 2011-2012 teams were fun. But, the other 4 years have been dismal. Next year? Maybe without Troy or Yogi? We get two pretty good wing players. We will still not be in a position to win at the top level. Year after? IU needs to, like you say, accept that this relationship isn't going anywhere.
 
Re: having all those things help a coach


RMk would have retired by now anyway..IU fans want the success that we had with RMK. I think there is a lot of young and upcoming coaches that can get IU there. Some of those HOF coaches out there were at nobody University before they turned current program into elite status. RYan, COACK K, Izzo was an Asst,
 
there are 32 automatic bids


meaning all the conference champions so there are 36 spots open for the rest of the country so I don't get where you get the number 37
 
I agree

besides Marshall or Stevens the one guy I might start looking at is Ben Jacobsen at N. Iowa because he has had a few good seasons and this year has them in the top 12.
 
After nearly 7 years, we should know what we have here

And what we have is not the successful pursuit of excellence.
 
Re: there are 32 automatic bids


There is 36 spots for at large,,,,IU could win an automatic spot from winning BTT. So IU could be one of the 36 at large or BTT cahmp as one of the 32 automatic....so correct me if I am wrong but 36+1=37?
 
Do you really think there will be a change


after this year because I just don't see it especially if we make the tournament. We might not agree with that but I think a lot of fans will be disappointed if they are expecting a change after this season.
 
Re: Do you really think there will be a change

II think it depends on how we finish...People are not happy around BTOWN and are voicing concerns. If we finish like CTC's teams normally do I see us missing it.
 
was not thinking about us winning the conference tournament


since we have never fared well in it and this team does not seem capable of winning it.
 
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