Our messaging is wrong....

[IUCrazy2]

What happens when you tell a group that they are privelege or you tend to ignore them believing that they have advantages that others do not?

This happens.

A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

The number of men enrolled at two- and four-year colleges has fallen behind women by record levels, in a widening education gap across the U.S.

www.wsj.com

You all can shove CRT and Grrl Power up your collective asses. As a parent to 4 white males, this nonsense has to stop. Stop with all the grrl power nonsense and bring it back to an egalitarian message. You are hurting your sons. Stop with the CRT nonsense. Kendi is wrong, racism now to make up for racism back then is going to lead to problems down the road. Additionally, if white men are so priveleged, explain the data.

 

[larsIU]

Nice write up in that article and while I don't agree/disagree with your assertions I think there is something else at play here.

The gig economy and social media.

Mr. Briles thinks he's going to stay at home producing music on his laptop for Soundcloud and get discovered. Whoa boy.

It.Isn't.Going.To.Happen.

But he's also investing in crypto. Again - he won't get rich doing that.

Neither of those things he concentrates his time on are tangible.

The landscaping job is. But it's clearly third place and just "something he's doing to earn money". He doesn't see that as a career but somehow sees being a Soundcloud musician and a crypto (STONKS!) investor as his path. Because he's seen like 6 people make it from dropping music on Soundcloud and believes the crypto hype (ask @mcmurtry66 )

As always, parenting. Nearly undefeated.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Does not bode well for our STEM competitiveness.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Nice write up in that article and while I don't agree/disagree with your assertions I think there is something else at play here.

The gig economy and social media.

Mr. Briles thinks he's going to stay at home producing music on his laptop for Soundcloud and get discovered. Whoa boy.

It.Isn't.Going.To.Happen.

But he's also investing in crypto. Again - he won't get rich doing that.

Neither of those things he concentrates his time on are tangible.

The landscaping job is. But it's clearly third place and just "something he's doing to earn money". He doesn't see that as a career but somehow sees being a Soundcloud musician and a crypto (STONKS!) investor as his path. Because he's seen like 6 people make it from dropping music on Soundcloud and believes the crypto hype (ask @mcmurtry66 )

As always, parenting. Nearly undefeated.

Listen funsucker YOU'RE OLD!!! you don't know the ways of this new generation.

P.s. I converted all of my crypto to a Messi NFT

 

[larsIU]

P.s. I converted all of my crypto to a Messi NFT

Don't let anyone tell you that you lack VISION

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There are studies, you can Google, that boys start behind at kindergarten and start losing interest. It is reported worldwide.

When our middle was an early admit, the kindergarten tested her. The teacher said that girls are often behind physically, boys behind in maturity. Even at age, let alone early, boys have a more difficult time sitting in a structured environment. Girls struggle with the way things can be rough and tumble.

So yes, we need to do more, it would be stupid not to.

But some of it is parenting. Boys will be boys is a mantra for many to excuse behavior.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Listen funsucker YOU'RE OLD!!! you don't know the ways of this new generation.

P.s. I converted all of my crypto to a Messi NFT

Are you still long on burl?

 

[IUCrazy2]

There are studies, you can Google, that boys start behind at kindergarten and start losing interest. It is reported worldwide.

When our middle was an early admit, the kindergarten tested her. The teacher said that girls are often behind physically, boys behind in maturity. Even at age, let alone early, boys have a more difficult time sitting in a structured environment. Girls struggle with the way things can be rough and tumble.

So yes, we need to do more, it would be stupid not to.

But some of it is parenting. Boys will be boys is a mantra for many to excuse behavior.

Boys had more success in the past...even having all of those biological things working "against" them in the past. What changed?

I do commend you on at least accepting that boys and girls are different and it isn't simply nurture that causes them to not be the same. Education has been feminized, particularly at the elementary level. And that is not a bad thing, if you are a girl. Maybe we need to start looking at the idea that the elementary kids should have separate time between the genders. Boys don't excel in group work. Boys tend to be motivated by competition. That stuff was pulled out of the classroom because girls were falling behind. Well now the opposite is true and the boys are getting a big F You because of privelege. And the charts in that article point out that white males are falling behind and underperforming women and minorities at almost every income level. That kind of throws the whole "privelege" argument on its head doesn't it?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Are you still long on burl?

duh. it never stops growing

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Boys had more success in the past...even having all of those biological things working "against" them in the past. What changed?

I do commend you on at least accepting that boys and girls are different and it isn't simply nurture that causes them to not be the same. Education has been feminized, particularly at the elementary level. And that is not a bad thing, if you are a girl. Maybe we need to start looking at the idea that the elementary kids should have separate time between the genders. Boys don't excel in group work. Boys tend to be motivated by competition. That stuff was pulled out of the classroom because girls were falling behind. Well now the opposite is true and the boys are getting a big F You because of privelege. And the charts in that article point out that white males are falling behind and underperforming women and minorities at almost every income level. That kind of throws the whole "privelege" argument on its head doesn't it?

So privilege does not exist at all?

Women had median weekly earnings of $902 in third quarter 2020, compared with $1,104 for men : The Economics Daily : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Among full-time workers, women had median weekly earnings of $902, while men had weekly earnings of $1,104, in the third quarter of 2020. Median weekly earnings were $1,542 for Asian men and $1,122 for White men. Those compare with $869 for Black or African American men and $823 for Hispanic or...

www.bls.gov

 

[mcmurtry66]

What happens when you tell a group that they are privelege or you tend to ignore them believing that they have advantages that others do not?

This happens.

A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

The number of men enrolled at two- and four-year colleges has fallen behind women by record levels, in a widening education gap across the U.S.

www.wsj.com

You all can shove CRT and Grrl Power up your collective asses. As a parent to 4 white males, this nonsense has to stop. Stop with all the grrl power nonsense and bring it back to an egalitarian message. You are hurting your sons. Stop with the CRT nonsense. Kendi is wrong, racism now to make up for racism back then is going to lead to problems down the road. Additionally, if white men are so priveleged, explain the data.

i love this stuff. very interesting. when college is as much as $70k a year $300,000 in tuition and four years of lost income for a job that starts at $40k makes one think. the younger generation is entrepreneurial too. hell i think it was noodle whose son made like $25k just reselling sneakers. they might rather start their own business than get a degree in political science or whatever that's largely worthless.

if you want to be an engineer or vet or whatever it's a no brainer. the general ed stuff may not be worth it anymore. the liberal education for the sake of one's own edification may no longer be economically feasible either.

times are a changin

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

There are studies, you can Google, that boys start behind at kindergarten and start losing interest. It is reported worldwide.

When our middle was an early admit, the kindergarten tested her. The teacher said that girls are often behind physically, boys behind in maturity. Even at age, let alone early, boys have a more difficult time sitting in a structured environment. Girls struggle with the way things can be rough and tumble.

So yes, we need to do more, it would be stupid not to.

But some of it is parenting. Boys will be boys is a mantra for many to excuse behavior.

There is a definitive problem and its been known for quite some time. Your last statement about "boys will be boys" or the one earlier "boys are just more immature" seems to be the educational cop-out that I've heard most. Most in education won't reinterpret the data to conclude there is an "opportunity gap" for boys vs. girls like we do in other areas for purely idealogical reasons, as the article quotes certain people admitting.

Here's the best researcher in the country on gender gaps in K-12 education, Sean Reardon of Stanford. His conclusions are that these gaps vary wildly by local district and here's how kids show up in Kindergarten:

Substantial prior literature explores gender achievement gaps in math and reading during elementary and middle school. In math, national studies using the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study-Kindergarten (ECLS-K) data find mixed evidence as to whether a significant average math achievement gap in favor of males emerges by the end of kindergarten. However, these studies consistently find a significant male-favoring gap by the end of third grade that remains or grows through fifth grade to approximately 0.15 to 0.20 standard deviations (Cimpian et al., 2016; Fryer & Levitt, 2010; Husain & Millimet, 2009; Lee et al., 2011; Penner & Paret, 2008; Robinson & Lubienski, 2011; Sohn, 2012). From fifth through eighth grade, the trend is reversed and the male-favoring math gap narrows (Robinson & Lubienski, 2011). A 2010 meta-analysis of data from nationally representative studies of math performance in middle and high school further concluded that male and female math scores did not differ significantly on average (Lindberg, Hyde, Petersen, & Linn, 2010).

ELA gaps, in contrast, favor females by approximately 0.15 to 0.20 standard deviations in kindergarten in the ECLS-K data (Chatterji, 2006; Fryer & Levitt, 2010; Husain & Millimet, 2009; Robinson & Lubienski, 2011). The ELA gap Reardon et al. 2476 narrows modestly (becomes less female favoring) through fifth grade but widens again by eighth grade (Robinson & Lubienski, 2011). In both subjects, these gaps have changed little in recent decades (Fahle & Reardon, 2018).

https://www.russellsage.org/sites/default/files/Gender%20Achievement%20Gaps.pdf

 

[hookyIU1990]

if you want to be an engineer or vet or whatever it's a no brainer. then general ed stuff may not be worth it anymore. the liberal education for the sake of one's own edification may no longer be economically feasible either.

But the loans still flow to the generally "worthless" fields of study that will never allow a kid to pay it back. Then we hear more about the high cost of education, how bad things are for those with high levels of student debt and that we need to forgive the loans. Rinse and repeat.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

So privilege does not exist at all?

Women had median weekly earnings of $902 in third quarter 2020, compared with $1,104 for men : The Economics Daily : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Among full-time workers, women had median weekly earnings of $902, while men had weekly earnings of $1,104, in the third quarter of 2020. Median weekly earnings were $1,542 for Asian men and $1,122 for White men. Those compare with $869 for Black or African American men and $823 for Hispanic or...

www.bls.gov

Interesting. What do you make of the fact that Asian women earn more than white men, on average?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Interesting. What do you make of the fact that Asian women earn more than white men, on average?

Asian culture values both work and education more. I think it was Outliers that went into how growing rice is such a time consuming effort, where European crops were not.

 

[Ohio Guy]

Nice write up in that article and while I don't agree/disagree with your assertions I think there is something else at play here.

The gig economy and social media.

Mr. Briles thinks he's going to stay at home producing music on his laptop for Soundcloud and get discovered. Whoa boy.

It.Isn't.Going.To.Happen.

But he's also investing in crypto. Again - he won't get rich doing that.

Neither of those things he concentrates his time on are tangible.

The landscaping job is. But it's clearly third place and just "something he's doing to earn money". He doesn't see that as a career but somehow sees being a Soundcloud musician and a crypto (STONKS!) investor as his path. Because he's seen like 6 people make it from dropping music on Soundcloud and believes the crypto hype (ask @mcmurtry66 )

As always, parenting. Nearly undefeated.

I think this a great point. That kid is essentially banking on being an internet famous musician/crypto investor without really paying any dues or honing a craft. Maybe college isn't right for him, but it doesn't seem that any admission diversity and inclusion efforts are standing in his way of going to school.

 

[mcmurtry66]

But the loans still flow to the generally "worthless" fields of study that will never allow a kid to pay it back. Then we hear more about the high cost of education, how bad things are for those with high levels of student debt and that we need to forgive the loans. Rinse and repeat.

hooky i know you're a soccer guy. an old teammate of mine's kid turned down a scholly to play at georgetown this fall to play mls2 instead. after playing he just wants to go work at a youth club. technical directors and boys/girls directors make $80-$150k a year - no degree required. no lost income. there's just a lot of opportunities out there outside of school that weren't when we were kids. and the younger generation (not all but a portion) just think differently about how they want to live their lives

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There is a definitive problem and its been known for quite some time. Your last statement about "boys will be boys" or the one earlier "boys are just more immature" seems to be the educational cop-out that I've heard most. Most in education won't reinterpret the data to conclude there is an "opportunity gap" for boys vs. girls like we do in other areas for purely idealogical reasons, as the article quotes certain people admitting.

Here's the best researcher in the country on gender gaps in K-12 education, Sean Reardon of Stanford. His conclusions are that these gaps vary wildly by local district and here's how kids show up in Kindergarten:

Substantial prior literature explores gender achievement gaps in math and reading during elementary and middle school. In math, national studies using the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study-Kindergarten (ECLS-K) data find mixed evidence as to whether a significant average math achievement gap in favor of males emerges by the end of kindergarten. However, these studies consistently find a significant male-favoring gap by the end of third grade that remains or grows through fifth grade to approximately 0.15 to 0.20 standard deviations (Cimpian et al., 2016; Fryer & Levitt, 2010; Husain & Millimet, 2009; Lee et al., 2011; Penner & Paret, 2008; Robinson & Lubienski, 2011; Sohn, 2012). From fifth through eighth grade, the trend is reversed and the male-favoring math gap narrows (Robinson & Lubienski, 2011). A 2010 meta-analysis of data from nationally representative studies of math performance in middle and high school further concluded that male and female math scores did not differ significantly on average (Lindberg, Hyde, Petersen, & Linn, 2010).

ELA gaps, in contrast, favor females by approximately 0.15 to 0.20 standard deviations in kindergarten in the ECLS-K data (Chatterji, 2006; Fryer & Levitt, 2010; Husain & Millimet, 2009; Robinson & Lubienski, 2011). The ELA gap Reardon et al. 2476 narrows modestly (becomes less female favoring) through fifth grade but widens again by eighth grade (Robinson & Lubienski, 2011). In both subjects, these gaps have changed little in recent decades (Fahle & Reardon, 2018).

https://www.russellsage.org/sites/default/files/Gender%20Achievement%20Gaps.pdf

The articles I saw specifically mentioned reading.

Girls, boys, and reading | Brookings

In part one of the 2015 Brown Center on American Education, Tom Loveless examines the gap in reading ability between boys and girls, in the U.S. and abroad.

www.google.com

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Here is a British story that says the problem goes back a long way. The philosopher Locke noted girls learned French faster than boys.

It has a possibility I do not think there is support for as to why the problem has become noticeable, sexism evened the playing field.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication

www.google.com

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

i love this stuff. very interesting. when college is as much as $70k a year $300,000 in tuition and four years of lost income for a job that starts at $40k makes one think. the younger generation is entrepreneurial too. hell i think it was noodle whose son made like $25k just reselling sneakers. they might rather start their own business than get a degree in political science or whatever that's largely worthless.

if you want to be an engineer or vet or whatever it's a no brainer. the general ed stuff may not be worth it anymore. the liberal education for the sake of one's own edification may no longer be economically feasible either.

times are a changin

I had the same thought reading the article. That part of this might be due to male's inherently more risk-taking behavior, which in the area of not going to college, might be a net rational decision. I just am not sure getting a 4 year degree with Directional School of Your Choice in a non-STEM field makes financial sense anymore with the debt people are racking up. But our culture--and even this article--assumes it is the best, safest route to financial stability.

That said, the problems in elementary education for males is an issue worthy of attention and study. I hope it gets done but I doubt it in today's political environment.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I had the same thought reading the article. That part of this might be due to male's inherently more risk-taking behavior, which in the area of not going to college, might be a net rational decision. I just am not sure getting a 4 year degree with Directional School of Your Choice in a non-STEM field makes financial sense anymore with the debt people are racking up. But our culture--and even this article--assumes it is the best, safest route to financial stability.

That said, the problems in elementary education for males is an issue worthy of attention and study. I hope it gets done but I doubt it in today's political environment.

Agreed on all fronts. I had two trees removed over the weekend. $6,000. took about 10 hours total. there are lots of opportunities for men to make money. women too i know before i get called out but i'm addressing the article. guy rolled off in a pickup truck that cost more than a range rover

 

[hookyIU1990]

hooky i know you're a soccer guy. an old teammate of mine's kid turned down a scholly to play at georgetown this fall to play mls2 instead. after playing he just wants to go work at a youth club. technical directors and boys/girls directors make $80-$150k a year - no degree required. no lost income. there's just a lot of opportunities out there outside of school that weren't when we were kids. and the younger generation (not all but a portion) just think differently about how they want to live their lives

I've got 2 nephews in the trades who are doing very well and would never have made it through 4 years of college. I'm glad they weren't told college or bust

When my son was a senior in HS, he still had no idea what he wanted to do. His idea was to go to school (IU, Pepperdine and Xavier were names he mentioned) and then "figure it out" while taking a bunch of fine arts and general studies classes. There were certainly less expensive ways for him to figure it out and thankfully he was realistic about it after a few long conversations that involved spreadsheets and the effects of compound interest.

I shudder to think where he'd be had he landed on graphic design with 100k in student loan debt. It's hard enough for him to get his graphic design thing going with zero debt.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Boys had more success in the past...even having all of those biological things working "against" them in the past. What changed?

I do commend you on at least accepting that boys and girls are different and it isn't simply nurture that causes them to not be the same. Education has been feminized, particularly at the elementary level. And that is not a bad thing, if you are a girl. Maybe we need to start looking at the idea that the elementary kids should have separate time between the genders. Boys don't excel in group work. Boys tend to be motivated by competition. That stuff was pulled out of the classroom because girls were falling behind. Well now the opposite is true and the boys are getting a big F You because of privelege. And the charts in that article point out that white males are falling behind and underperforming women and minorities at almost every income level. That kind of throws the whole "privelege" argument on its head doesn't it?

I would love to see some research that group work was emphasized and competition was de-emphasized to equal the playing field, and that those things do, in fact, favor girls.
Any studies that say that elementary boys don't excel at group work? Any studies that say that elementary girls aren't competitive?
What if I said that white males are falling behind in school because their parents aren't worth a shit? Would that be accurate?

 

[IUCrazy2]

i love this stuff. very interesting. when college is as much as $70k a year $300,000 in tuition and four years of lost income for a job that starts at $40k makes one think. the younger generation is entrepreneurial too. hell i think it was noodle whose son made like $25k just reselling sneakers. they might rather start their own business than get a degree in political science or whatever that's largely worthless.

if you want to be an engineer or vet or whatever it's a no brainer. the general ed stuff may not be worth it anymore. the liberal education for the sake of one's own edification may no longer be economically feasible either.

times are a changin

Ok, then on the flip side are we selling minorities and women a bill of goods?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Ok, then on the flip side are we selling minorities and women a bill of goods?

i guess minorities might benefit from hiring practices that encourage diversity making their degrees more valuable because they can get better jobs but i have no idea if that's true. absent that to me the math is immaterial to race/gender. a $300,000 social work degree from the u of miami probably isn't smart regardless of your race/gender. juco/followed by in state might be a difft story.

 

[mrhighlife]

The world needs ditch diggers too... and right now a ditch digger is union, gets 45k a year, with benefits and doesn't have to sink 250K into a college loan.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The world needs ditch diggers too... and right now a ditch digger is union, gets 45k a year, with benefits and doesn't have to sink 250K into a college loan.

my relatives own and/work roofing companies, asphalt companies, bricklayers, blah blah blah. all make a nice living. i agree with you but it does have a down side too. it ain't easy work when you're older. it's hot. it's cold. it's hard. and it's scary. You **** up your back you've got real problems.

having college cost so much creates new societal problems imo. so too will minimum wage if it goes too high

 

[mrhighlife]

my relatives own and/work roofing companies, asphalt companies, bricklayers, blah blah blah. all make a nice living. i agree with you but it does have a down side too. it ain't easy work when you're older. it's hot. it's cold. it's hard. and it's scary. You **** up your back you've got real problems.

having college cost so much creates new societal problems imo

Yep. The cost of college is really a problem. People easily forget that up until the early 70s most public universities were almost free for most wanting to attend. I'm not suggesting we go back to that. However I am not surprised kids today are looking side eyed at the prospect of making teacher/leo/nursing/you name it wages with a 250k college loan debt.

 

[larsIU]

my relatives own and/work roofing companies, asphalt companies, bricklayers, blah blah blah. all make a nice living. i agree with you but it does have a down side too. it ain't easy work when you're older. it's hot. it's cold. it's hard. and it's scary. You **** up your back you've got real problems.

having college cost so much creates new societal problems imo. so too will minimum wage if it goes too high

I had numerous uncles work in the trades (electricians/elevators) and started at around 20 y/o. They are "retired" in their mid 50's and still were doing various training assignments for their respective unions. I don't know if that's still going to be viable 20-30 years from now but it worked really well in the past and I don't really see automation solving the need to build electrical infrastructure and elevators (plus ongoing maintenance/repairs).

I really believe we should be focusing on sorting out what kids want to pursue at 16 or so. Do more to introduce them to trades, etc. I know when i was younger there was the J Everett Light training center at (I think) North Central. Don't know if that's still going on. Maybe involving local businesses in early apprenticeships (body shops/mechanics/plumbers, etc)?

 

[hookyIU1990]

I really believe we should be focusing on sorting out what kids want to pursue at 16 or so. Do more to introduce them to trades, etc. I know when i was younger there was the J Everett Light training center at (I think) North Central. Don't know if that's still going on. Maybe involving local businesses in early apprenticeships (body shops/mechanics/plumbers, etc)?

The worst two messages we can give kids is 1) You can be whatever you want to be when it's obvious that they'll never make it at what it is they're saying they want to be: 2) If you don't go to college and get a degree, you'll never make a good living.

 

[larsIU]

The worst two messages we can give kids is 1) You can be whatever you want to be when it's obvious that they'll never make it at what it is they're saying they want to be: 2) If you don't go to college and get a degree, you'll never make a good living.

Yep. I've got a nephew who barely graduated high school, plays in a band (to be fair they actually get some low level gigs) and has no idea what the hell he wants to do.

He knows he doesn't want to go to college. However, he grew up in a pretty affluent area and went to an affluent high school. So he has this pressure to be more like X, Y, Z kid down the street or from school.

He's 21 now. He like to work with his hands, tinker with shit and will work hard if need be. But, he was never really exposed to anything but COLLEGE! in high school. He'd do really well in an old fashioned union job. But he's just drifting along.

 

[outside shooter]

The worst two messages we can give kids is 1) You can be whatever you want to be when it's obvious that they'll never make it at what it is they're saying they want to be: 2) If you don't go to college and get a degree, you'll never make a good living.

Both are very much incomplete messages. 1) Find out what you love and what matches your aptitudes. A job that matches both is something that you can be great at. 2) If that job requires HS, trade school, junior college, college, or Harvard Law, then go for what it requires, again, if it matches what you love and are capable of doing.

So I agree that there is a strong need for a reality check on motivation, innate ability, curiousity, and willingness to jump through all of the necessary hoops.

I was lucky enough to support my kids getting college degrees (without debt, amazingly) that set them up to do what they love. But I realize that I am fortunate to be able to do that, so the potential of a huge financial hole is another thing that teens need to factor in, unfortunately.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Without looking for it, this Ted Talk appeared.

He said, "But I wanted to be a fireman." And he said, "When I got to the senior year of school, my teachers didn't take it seriously. This one teacher didn't take it seriously. He said I was throwing my life away if that's all I chose to do with it; that I should go to college, I should become a professional person, that I had great potential and I was wasting my talent to do that." He said, "It was humiliating. It was in front of the whole class and I felt dreadful. But it's what I wanted, and as soon as I left school, I applied to the fire service and I was accepted. You know, I was thinking about that guy recently, just a few minutes ago when you were speaking, about this teacher, because six months ago, I saved his life."
...
The other big issue is conformity. We have built our education systems on the model of fast food. This is something Jamie Oliver talked about the other day. There are two models of quality assurance in catering. One is fast food, where everything is standardized. The other is like Zagat and Michelin restaurants, where everything is not standardized, they're customized to local circumstances. And we have sold ourselves into a fast-food model of education, and it's impoverishing our spirit and our energies as much as fast food is depleting our physical bodies.

Bring on the learning revolution!

In this poignant, funny follow-up to his fabled 2006 talk, Sir Ken Robinson makes the case for a radical shift from standardized schools to personalized learning -- creating conditions where kids' natural talents can flourish.

www.ted.com

 

[mcmurtry66]

Without looking for it, this Ted Talk appeared.

He said, "But I wanted to be a fireman." And he said, "When I got to the senior year of school, my teachers didn't take it seriously. This one teacher didn't take it seriously. He said I was throwing my life away if that's all I chose to do with it; that I should go to college, I should become a professional person, that I had great potential and I was wasting my talent to do that." He said, "It was humiliating. It was in front of the whole class and I felt dreadful. But it's what I wanted, and as soon as I left school, I applied to the fire service and I was accepted. You know, I was thinking about that guy recently, just a few minutes ago when you were speaking, about this teacher, because six months ago, I saved his life."
...
The other big issue is conformity. We have built our education systems on the model of fast food. This is something Jamie Oliver talked about the other day. There are two models of quality assurance in catering. One is fast food, where everything is standardized. The other is like Zagat and Michelin restaurants, where everything is not standardized, they're customized to local circumstances. And we have sold ourselves into a fast-food model of education, and it's impoverishing our spirit and our energies as much as fast food is depleting our physical bodies.

Bring on the learning revolution!

In this poignant, funny follow-up to his fabled 2006 talk, Sir Ken Robinson makes the case for a radical shift from standardized schools to personalized learning -- creating conditions where kids' natural talents can flourish.

www.ted.com

yep what loser would want to be a fire fighter. work 9 days a month. a 9 day vacation from your family with the guys where you bbq and play poker. and you're vested at 38 in case you feel like doing something else later in life

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Without looking for it, this Ted Talk appeared.

He said, "But I wanted to be a fireman." And he said, "When I got to the senior year of school, my teachers didn't take it seriously. This one teacher didn't take it seriously. He said I was throwing my life away if that's all I chose to do with it; that I should go to college, I should become a professional person, that I had great potential and I was wasting my talent to do that." He said, "It was humiliating. It was in front of the whole class and I felt dreadful. But it's what I wanted, and as soon as I left school, I applied to the fire service and I was accepted. You know, I was thinking about that guy recently, just a few minutes ago when you were speaking, about this teacher, because six months ago, I saved his life."
...
The other big issue is conformity. We have built our education systems on the model of fast food. This is something Jamie Oliver talked about the other day. There are two models of quality assurance in catering. One is fast food, where everything is standardized. The other is like Zagat and Michelin restaurants, where everything is not standardized, they're customized to local circumstances. And we have sold ourselves into a fast-food model of education, and it's impoverishing our spirit and our energies as much as fast food is depleting our physical bodies.

Bring on the learning revolution!

In this poignant, funny follow-up to his fabled 2006 talk, Sir Ken Robinson makes the case for a radical shift from standardized schools to personalized learning -- creating conditions where kids' natural talents can flourish.

www.ted.com

Modern education is too slow to get rid of the factory model (regular bells, standardized assessments, age-dependent grouping, conformity, calendar based on the agricultural cycles, etc). The notion was that the back door of the school should lead to the front door of the factory with drones ready to work in mindless jobs. Critical and creative thinking is not a priority. It's all teacher-centered and subjects are taught miles wide, and an inch thick.
Teachers I know hate it, but really have no say. They are forced into compliance by administration that is told by the C of C/politicians that any other teaching model that can't be measured by standardized tests created by billion dollar textbook companies is worthless.
It's the textbook industrial complex.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

yep what loser would want to be a fire fighter. work 9 days a month. a 9 day vacation from your family with the guys where you bbq and play poker. and you're vested at 38 in case you feel like doing something else later in life

AND can easily work another full time job on the side or have your own business. Side perk, women love a man in Uniform......

Worked well for me.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

AND can easily work another full time job on the side or have your own business. Side perk, women love a man in Uniform......

Worked well for me.

I'm sure they chased after you...

 

[Marvin the Martian]

That article might be survivor bias. The percentage of males getting a college degree is going up, not down. It is just girls have gone up faster. We may not be failing boys. It might be more jobs that don't require college (military, construction, fire) are more attractive to males than females. There is a chart in the story below, as of 2020 the percentage of males getting a college degree is at an all-time high.

Percentage of the U.S. population with a college degree by gender 1940-2022 | Statista

In an impressive increase from years past, 39 percent of women in the United States had completed four years or more of college in 2022.

www.statista.com

It seems this is true for enrollments as well:

Between 2000 and 2018, overall college enrollment rates increased for both 18- to 24-year-old males (from 33 to 38 percent) and females (from 38 to 44 percent). Among males, college enrollment rates were higher in 2018 than in 2000 for those who were White (39 vs. 36 percent), Black (33 vs. 25 percent), and Hispanic (32 vs. 18 percent). Among females, college enrollment rates were also higher in 2018 than in 2000 for those who were White (45 vs. 41 percent) and Hispanic (40 vs. 25 percent). The rate in 2018 was not measurably different from the rate in 2000 for females who were Black.​

​

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_cpb.pdf

If more males are enrolling in college every year, and more males are graduating every year, the questions might be different than if there were fewer.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Modern education is too slow to get rid of the factory model (regular bells, standardized assessments, age-dependent grouping, conformity, calendar based on the agricultural cycles, etc). The notion was that the back door of the school should lead to the front door of the factory with drones ready to work in mindless jobs. Critical and creative thinking is not a priority. It's all teacher-centered and subjects are taught miles wide, and an inch thick.
Teachers I know hate it, but really have no say. They are forced into compliance by administration that is told by the C of C/politicians that any other teaching model that can't be measured by standardized tests created by billion dollar textbook companies is worthless.
It's the textbook industrial complex.

Standardized testing is not the enemy. Plenty of nations educate their citizens very well and use standardized tests.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Standardized testing is not the enemy. Plenty of nations educate their citizens very well and use standardized tests.

Not when used as a diagnostic tool to gather data to better target students' areas of need. But, when they are bastardized to grade schools and teachers, they are not being utilized in the way they were envisioned. The intrusion of business and politics into education through the use of tests has diminished the impact of the profession.