(OT) IHSAA considering going to 5 classes for Basketball

[ufo33]

The largest 4A Basketball schools are the 6A Football schools who are 2X to 5X bigger than the bottom sized 4A schools who are only a few students above the 3A schools. 4A has an enrollment spread of 1000 students to 5400 students, this completely defeats the purpose of class sports when you play a school with a potential of being 4400 students larger, in the same 4A class. Ridiculous. The largest schools in the state keep growing and getting larger while 3A schools get bumped up to 4A without adding any students due to an increase in small private and Charter schools which forces the IHSAA to bump up schools from each class and the 3A sized schools of 1000 get bumped up to 4A not by their own doing or growth. Just go back to 1 Class Basketball if you don't go to 5 classes or 6 classes like Football. 4A football schools now play in the same Basketball Class as the much larger 5A & 6A football schools. 1000 student enrollment schools now have more size enrollment fairness in football than basketball, why is that?

 

[IUNorth]

The largest 4A Basketball schools are the 6A Football schools who are 2X to 5X bigger than the bottom sized 4A schools who are only a few students above the 3A schools. 4A has an enrollment spread of 1000 students to 5400 students, this completely defeats the purpose of class sports when you play a school with a potential of being 4400 students larger, in the same 4A class. Ridiculous. The largest schools in the state keep growing and getting larger while 3A schools get bumped up to 4A without adding any students due to an increase in small private and Charter schools which forces the IHSAA to bump up schools from each class and the 3A sized schools of 1000 get bumped up to 4A not by their own doing or growth. Just go back to 1 Class Basketball if you don't go to 5 classes or 6 classes like Football. 4A football schools now play in the same Basketball Class as the much larger 5A & 6A football schools. 1000 student enrollment schools now have more size enrollment fairness in football than basketball, why is that?

Already has been hashed out…

Latest proposal is 4 classes, with 1400 now being the 4A threshold. Helps a chunk of schools. Many think it doesn’t really solve the root issue. Due to be officially voted on here at some point. It’s unlikely to be popular enough to be adopted.

 

[brettmacy18]

Should be 1 class

 

[Liberty_Hoosier]

In 2002 on way to title game in Atlanta I told an old timer I'd rather beat our 1 class sectional host for a sectional title than win a 2A state title. (4A school at time and we were a 2A) I would imagine in many places in the state people would talk about something like that in their small community forever. Even people in nearby communities would get excited/jealous by it at the time. Now these schools win state class titles, and the nostalgia has no real staying power and the jealousy/excitement of rivals wears off quick. It is absolutely an accomplishment and exciting. It is also nothing more than any other team in any other sport across the nation doing the same.

 

[Crayfish57]

In 2002 on way to title game in Atlanta I told an old timer I'd rather beat our 1 class sectional host for a sectional title than win a 2A state title. (4A school at time and we were a 2A) I would imagine in many places in the state people would talk about something like that in their small community forever. Even people in nearby communities would get excited/jealous by it at the time. Now these schools win state class titles, and the nostalgia has no real staying power and the jealousy/excitement of rivals wears off quick. It is absolutely an accomplishment and exciting. It is also nothing more than any other team in any other sport across the nation doing the same.

Ive said this for years when you played against the teams in your county or sectional area winning the sectional was a huge deal . Its why we had tiny schools with huge gyms back in the days of Hoosiers and then even moderate schools with huge gyms to host the sectionals.

I could see two classes as these ''small'' colleges that are at the top tier are just ridiculous and imagine even trying to make the team at a HS that big? Now you have the best players going to other schools. I've mentioned before. I went to HS with Shawn Kemp, before he got there we were a joke on athletics. Not a tiny school but not that big. Made final game undefeated in one class 2 out of 3 yrs one without Kemp. Watched Scott Skiles will a small team to a win a few years earlier.

My dad went to a school so small they make Milan look huge and this was early 60's . They won sectional his Sr year , Had a guy that was in braces his freshman yr from Polio and ended up going to Purdue. I dont think he ever really played but it shows how a small team with one player can make a mark in basketball.

Its long gone, but it was great to watch and had to mean more to the players back then.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

The largest 4A Basketball schools are the 6A Football schools who are 2X to 5X bigger than the bottom sized 4A schools who are only a few students above the 3A schools. 4A has an enrollment spread of 1000 students to 5400 students, this completely defeats the purpose of class sports when you play a school with a potential of being 4400 students larger, in the same 4A class. Ridiculous. The largest schools in the state keep growing and getting larger while 3A schools get bumped up to 4A without adding any students due to an increase in small private and Charter schools which forces the IHSAA to bump up schools from each class and the 3A sized schools of 1000 get bumped up to 4A not by their own doing or growth. Just go back to 1 Class Basketball if you don't go to 5 classes or 6 classes like Football. 4A football schools now play in the same Basketball Class as the much larger 5A & 6A football schools. 1000 student enrollment schools now have more size enrollment fairness in football than basketball, why is that?

So that would make four meaningless Champs.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

The irony of "class basketball" is that the classes, whether 4, 5 or 6, are ranked. At the top is the biggest number and at the bottom is the smallest number. The classes are the pecking order. And because there is a pecking order...the purest form of competition died with single class basketball.

 

[The Vid]

May as well go to 13 classes so more little babies can have trophies.

 

[GThomas]

Should be 1 class

Unfortunately, we'll never see another Milan; the class structure is here to stay. The best Indiana basketball purists could hope for is a scenario in which the champions of each class meet for the overall state title. Expand to 8 classes and have 1 vs. 8, 4 vs. 5, etc.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

Unfortunately, we'll never see another Milan; the class structure is here to stay. The best Indiana basketball purists could hope for is a scenario in which the champions of each class meet for the overall state title. Expand to 8 classes and have 1 vs. 8, 4 vs. 5, etc.

Of course this scenario has been considered.....just another flavor of handicapping, though. Any way you slice it But at least you end up with one chanpion, not half a dozen.

 

[RespecttheStars]

Ive said this for years when you played against the teams in your county or sectional area winning the sectional was a huge deal . Its why we had tiny schools with huge gyms back in the days of Hoosiers and then even moderate schools with huge gyms to host the sectionals.

I could see two classes as these ''small'' colleges that are at the top tier are just ridiculous and imagine even trying to make the team at a HS that big? Now you have the best players going to other schools. I've mentioned before. I went to HS with Shawn Kemp, before he got there we were a joke on athletics. Not a tiny school but not that big. Made final game undefeated in one class 2 out of 3 yrs one without Kemp. Watched Scott Skiles will a small team to a win a few years earlier.

My dad went to a school so small they make Milan look huge and this was early 60's . They won sectional his Sr year , Had a guy that was in braces his freshman yr from Polio and ended up going to Purdue. I dont think he ever really played but it shows how a small team with one player can make a mark in basketball.

Its long gone, but it was great to watch and had to mean more to the players back then.

In the 70’s and 80’s getting out of the Hammond Sectional was a bloodbath. Great teams. Great show.
Than the Gary Regional. Craziness.
To win that thing was to never be forgotten.
Anything down state from there was an anticlimax at best.

In a five on five sport — one class still makes sense. The haves will always have but the have-nots are still out there lurking.

Won’t happen but would be great to see again.

 

[Radio Zero]

I’ve never read a post in favor of class basketball. Granting that such may not be representative, how is it that something so disliked is considered so unalterable? Do the powers-that-be in IHSAA answer to no-one? It’s as if they’ve decided that they’re going to do as they wish and everyone who doesn’t like it can just **** off. Which is nice.

 

[RespecttheStars]

I’ve never read a post in favor of class basketball. Granting that such may not be representative, how is it that something so disliked is considered so unalterable? Do the powers-that-be in IHSAA answer to no-one? It’s as if they’ve decided that they’re going to do as they wish and everyone who doesn’t like it can just **** off. Which is nice.

Essentially yes.

It was a cultural decision not a basketball decision.

Much like many medical conversations are no longer medical/surgical being undertaken by those who know/do but are now topical/cultural/profit/market based.

Non sensical in any way but they represent the current reality just the same.

And drives legislation.

Loudest wins.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Unfortunately, we'll never see another Milan; the class structure is here to stay. The best Indiana basketball purists could hope for is a scenario in which the champions of each class meet for the overall state title. Expand to 8 classes and have 1 vs. 8, 4 vs. 5, etc.

Didn't they have the tournament of champions for a few years where the 4.champs played? Maybe it was just talked about

 

[steelyvan]

Didn't they have the tournament of champions for a few years where the 4.champs played? Maybe it was just talked about

they did. and it was not well attended or considered "march madness" so it passed away. which I found surprising.

 

[IUINSB]

I’ve never read a post in favor of class basketball. Granting that such may not be representative, how is it that something so disliked is considered so unalterable? Do the powers-that-be in IHSAA answer to no-one? It’s as if they’ve decided that they’re going to do as they wish and everyone who doesn’t like it can just **** off. Which is nice.

Class Bball was driven by school administrators. Championships of any type look good on a resume. This goes for band, choir, etc. as well as sports.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Unfortunately, we'll never see another Milan; the class structure is here to stay. The best Indiana basketball purists could hope for is a scenario in which the champions of each class meet for the overall state title. Expand to 8 classes and have 1 vs. 8, 4 vs. 5, etc.

They did that at one time. It didn’t last very long. Lasted the first 2 years. Called tournament of champions.

 

[hookyIU1990]

They did that at one time. It didn’t last very long. Lasted the first 2 years. Called tournament of champions.

I thought that was about the worst of both worlds.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

I thought that was about the worst of both worlds.

It basically was a nothingburger. Made the class champions less in their eyes.

 

[brettmacy18]

Unfortunately, we'll never see another Milan; the class structure is here to stay. The best Indiana basketball purists could hope for is a scenario in which the champions of each class meet for the overall state title. Expand to 8 classes and have 1 vs. 8, 4 vs. 5, etc.

They did that when they first started classes in the late 90s, that tournament of champions was very poorly attended, and didnt work. Classes water down championships, the more classes the worse it is. I get it in football due to the physical nature of the sport, but other then that, a total watered down product

 

[iubirdman]

Already has been hashed out…

Latest proposal is 4 classes, with 1400 now being the 4A threshold. Helps a chunk of schools. Many think it doesn’t really solve the root issue. Due to be officially voted on here at some point. It’s unlikely to be popular enough to be adopted.

Yea, the state has said they do not want more than 4--as they would not be able to play 5 in a day and would cause the need to use 2 venues or find a venue that they will be able to use 2 days, which I do not see happening.

I would be surprised if the proposal does not pass, have to think the proposal would not have leaked out if they did not want to pass it. Add that to the majority of members on the executive committee represent schools that would benefit from the move and I think it will end up passing easily later this week.

 

[IUNorth]

Yea, the state has said they do not want more than 4--as they would not be able to play 5 in a day and would cause the need to use 2 venues or find a venue that they will be able to use 2 days, which I do not see happening.

I would be surprised if the proposal does not pass, have to think the proposal would not have leaked out if they did not want to pass it. Add that to the majority of members on the executive committee represent schools that would benefit from the move and I think it will end up passing easily later this week.

Its very lazy, in my opinion. Ohio and Kentucky, as examples, put on multi day State Finals events, that include dozens of teams.

The only justifiable concern with adding a class or two, in my opinion, would be the travel distance for some schools to sectional sites.

Football has gotten over that one, but that's just 1 game a week.

If you're going to have class basketball, a 4-5000 student school playing against a 1400 student school, doesn't make sense.

 

[IUNorth]

I think they should view public and private schools differently, when classifying them. I'm not in favor of separating them out, necessarily, but I don't think schools like Lafayette Central Catholic ever had any business playing in the 1A tournament. FW Canterbury got a couple good transfers in from Homestead this offseason...I'll be surprised if they don't win a state title this year because of it. So basically, I think all private schools should be required to "play up" roughly 1 class.

When you factor in private school dominance in the lower classes, and then the 2000 plus student monster schools dominating the 4A class...I seriously question how "fair" the current setup is...and the new proposal doesn't do much to solve it.

Here's roughly what I'd do...

Class 4A = 2000+ student public schools (37 currently). And then the biggest 8 or so Private schools (Roncalli, Cathedral, Dwenger, Brebeuf, Culver, St Joe, Guerin, Mish Marian...)

8 Sectionals (4-7 teams each, minimize drive times as much as possible)
4 regionals (1 game, minimize drive times as much as possible)
2 semi states
1 state

Class 3A = 750-1999 student public schools (99 currently). And then the next 10-12 or so biggest private schools (Chatard, Concordia, Ritter, Christel House, Mater Dei, Heritage Christian, Hammond Noll, Luers, Illiana, Lighthouse, 21st Century, maybe Blackhawk for the competition rule...)

16 sectional (6-8 teams each, minimize drive times)
8 regionals (1 game)
2 semistates (2 games)
1 state (1 game)

Class 2A = 400 - 749 student public schools (110). And then remaining private schools.

16 Sectionals (8 or so teams per sectional)
8 regionals
2 semi states
1 state

Class 1A = 1 - 399 student schools, all public (roughly 120 schools)

16 sectionals (6-8 teams per sectional
8 regionals
2 semi states
1 state

Maybe you make the 3A a little bit smaller by going 1000-1999 for public schools. Then adjusting down, and having 1A and 2A both be 150-160 schools.