Not that there would be such insane mass substitutions like last night, but.........
- Thread starter Bippy
- Start date
What is the point of mass substitutions? In the NBA I get it. The clock hits a marker and both teams do it.
In college though, why are you doing it? It can disrupt the rhythm and kill momentum. Experimenting with lineups in a game that seems like it’s becoming a blowout is one thing, you can do that by bringing in 1 or 2 off the bench to see how it goes.
Going back to RMK. If it is a problem with all starters playing like they don’t care, and you want to send a message, I can understand that. The bench sends message to the players …. Etc
But, when you are rolling there is zero reason to do it.
Agree. The maddening part is he keeps doing it when even amateurs like us see it does not work. He's is either stubborn or incapable of learning at this point.
those whole sale line changes aren't working, haven't worked ever for Woody.
last night was particularly hellacious. and it destroyed our mojo into the 2nd half. having to call a TO 2 min into 2nd half is not a good thing.
STUBBORN and well paid, protected so why show any learning skill
Just needs to work out a functional rotation. Think I'd first sub Ballo and Carlyle and get a few more minutes out of Rice, who's a stabilizer and to me seems the most important for pace and flow. Then bring back Ballo and Carlyle with Galloway so you have 2 ball handlers in the backcourt and Ballo and Galloway have played well together in the PnR. Whatever it is, you can't have too many starters off the floor at once.
I'd just texted a buddy when it was like 21-5 how much better our D looked, and then it was like a switch flipped and it was a battle against old, bad tendencies for the rest of the game.
Still like Hatton and his effort when he comes in and think he'll find some minutes. I know one time I'd bring he, or Tucker or Goode in: when Reanu has a brain fart and walks away on the FT line without blocking out. Pine time.
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Played down to the opponent as soon as substitutions hit the floor and play resumed. Don't recognize they're playing against the game. Are there not still stair steps to run in AH?
Basically impossible for me to know if this is actually correct or not...but damn, it sure appears to be... Woodson doesn't take games like these seriously. And I think its a window in to how he approaches coaching, in general. He isn't a process guy, he doesn't focus on all the little details. He's a relationship guy, he probably focuses a lot on emotion, and he probably uses unrelatable terms like acting like a "grown man"...I can hear him saying things like..."If I need to teach you how to get in a defensive stance, you'll never make the league."
I know the NBA connections criticisms are over used, but at this point, I honestly wonder how much he's actually changed his views and fundamental beliefs from the bulk of his coaching days in the NBA. Because how he talks to the media, how he manages games, a large chunk of the stuff he runs, it really does come off as Carmelo Anthony Era Knicks bball.
I turned the game off last night after the 21-5 start evaporated. I'm sure he'll shorten the bench as the year wears on, its what he normally does. And I'm sure they'll have more energy and be more sharp for the bigger games coming up. But these sorts of coaching and player efforts, are how we'll lose to teams like Penn State and Northwestern in the dog days of the B10 schedule. Woodson won't approach them with urgency...and then as a result, the players won't either.
I know the NBA connections criticisms are over used, but at this point, I honestly wonder how much he's actually changed his views and fundamental beliefs from the bulk of his coaching days in the NBA. Because how he talks to the media, how he manages games, a large chunk of the stuff he runs, it really does come off as Carmelo Anthony Era Knicks bball.
I turned the game off last night after the 21-5 start evaporated. I'm sure he'll shorten the bench as the year wears on, its what he normally does. And I'm sure they'll have more energy and be more sharp for the bigger games coming up. But these sorts of coaching and player efforts, are how we'll lose to teams like Penn State and Northwestern in the dog days of the B10 schedule. Woodson won't approach them with urgency...and then as a result, the players won't either.
Knight used to say, and it happened to his teams too at times, that players don't concentrate on the court as much as they need to. He also said that players think they are playing hard but that they're not. IMO it wasn't the substitutions as much as once getting the big lead they didn't play as hard or stick to the switching that was effective at the start on D, made terrible turnovers and took bad shots. How many times watching basketball have you seen a team jump out to a big lead to start a game, and the other team, probably not focused at the start or ready to play a big game, be flat as a door. Then suddenly, they raise their game, while the team ahead goes flat. It's mental. Yes, the coaches can't let this happen but the players have that responsibility too.
All of these things can be true. And even the best coaches (RMK included, per your examples), can't get their guys to play consistently hard, focused, or clean basketball ALL the time.
But they can nip the L O N G E R stretches of lower energy and focus, sloppy play, etc... in the bud, by focusing on it early and often, and not allowing his teams to get away with the highs and lows in practices. 3+ years in now, it sure doesn't seem like Woodson has made consistency, in much of anything, a priority in his program. In nearly every single game they play, his teams have long, prolonged lulls and stretches of poor or uninspired play.
Of course some that responsibility is on the players. But he's had 4 pretty different casts of characters now, and we're seeing the same traits in all his groups. I think there's enough evidence to make a pretty good, educated call, that Woodson isn't very good at establishing consistency in his teams.
I think its a larger problem than just his substitution patterns. But it is a VERY well established...basically fact at this point...that his teams efficiencies fall off the map when he takes multiple starters out of the game at the same time. I get the need to tinker early on in the season, to see what guys can do playing with different teammates, in different situations. His mass subbing style doesn't really accomplish that though...and its very proven and established that it destroys our performance and our efficiency metrics. Which, unfortunately, are important.
Or…he could sub based on each individual game. I know…novel idea.
This idea that you need to sub at a certain point in each game regardless of play is asinine.
Woody hasn’t figured that out.
Knight trying to win in Mackey for the first time in 74-75 season (that was a pretty talented team)…played the last 20 minutes without making a substitution
Woodson wants two bigs, so I think Ballo will start.
His recent lineups have included:
-- Reneau with Ware
-- Reneau with Jackson-Davis
-- and now Reneau with Ballo (I think)
Clappy used to pull the same stunt all the time and cost us games. Seen this movie before and it usually doesn't end well..............................
I'm saying come up with a bit of a substitution pattern. He just ended up with a really strange grouping, which I think was him experimenting a bit, and letting it roll, and it didn't. But, I think the problem is just pace without Rice, so I'm saying do an early sub for Ballo and Carlyle so you can bring them back to play with Galloway when you do finally give Rice a rest. As someone else said, you can sub individually, but that can lead to a strange grouping like we had last night. I think Ballo is going to need short rests, and it's going to be a problem when you take Rice off the floor so I was trying to think of a rotation that addresses ball handling and offense when you take Rice out.
I completely agree. That's why I first mentioned the lack of focus which is why there was no motion on offense and zero blocking out. I'm not trying to blame it all on CMW as the players need to learn that "the mental is to the physical as 4 is to 1".
But what looks like idiot substitutions en masse and really talented players (not all, but it looked like most) who appear to just be mailing it in............ is a formula for disappointment again.
As so many have pointed out, it isn't fun to watch them anymore.
Another point that was made by MG80, when referencing RMK...is that players often don't know what it means to play hard.
I've found, even the most motivated and hard nosed players, NEED constant correction and/or affirmation. And I would contend that's even MORE important nowadays. Kids coming in to college have largely had MUCH less guidance and scrutiny, so they're much less equipped to deal with the highs and lows of major college bball.
So, when you have a guy like Woodson. And again, these are just guesses from listening to him talk, watching his teams play, reading about him, etc... But I think he takes his "mentor" role very seriously in some respects. The whole father figure role, becoming a man, probably preaches a lot of the old school stuff and is constantly lamenting with the kids how different it is. But where it looks like he's failing is actually teaching them what it means, what it feels like, what it looks like to focus on every drill, to play hard in every possession, the importance of those things, etc... He yells at them for it, he calls them out in the media for it...but he doesn't dig in, starting in August, and really teach them HOW to do it. And I suspect that filters out and applies to most things in his program. Boxing out...he'll yell about it, but not really forge it in to their habits. Defensive rotations...yell, but guessing they don't do hours upon hours upon hours of shell drills in practices so the rotations become second nature.
I hope our next coach is more like Cignetti. I think what guys like Cignetti, Saban, Kirby Smart...what they're great at is effectively forging all the good habits and processes in to each of their players. And the results end up taking care of themselves from those seemingly innoculous, daily, repetitive, year round efforts.
At the conclusion of the game I was thinking "Knight would have them out practicing in 30 minutes".
I think it is an NBA thing as it seems like Woodson has no "respect" for a halftime lead.....basically has no use for it, and would rather they just play 20 minutes. Problem is, as you point out and we've seen a dozen times over the years, you can't just kick start effort and chemistry once you've thrown it away.
Let's just face facts.....the guy sucks.....and he f***ing never learns. Crazy thing for me is that he was probably my favorite IU player when I was younger.
He seems so entitled.....no accountability....this preseason schedule itself is enough of a kick in the ass to the fans, then he pulls that crap.
Great post.....bad thing is, is there a "process" guy on the whole staff? Are there any rebounding drills? Do they ever talk about passing angles? All the rigidity and arrogance is pretty hard to take given the lack of success. You can turn things off and on to a certain extent but it's not a winning attitude.
