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No Comment - Your Kids are Dumb and You Probably Won’t Finish This And There’s a Twist

MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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Not sure where this is from - sent to me in a chain e-mail without source:

You might have seen the various data points suggesting that Americans are losing their ability to reason.

The trend starts with the young. The percentage of fourth graders who score below basic in reading skills on the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests is the highest it has been in 20 years. The percentage of eighth graders below basic was the highest in the exam’s three-decade history. A fourth grader who is below basic cannot grasp the sequence of events in a story. An eighth grader can’t grasp the main idea of an essay or identify the different sides of a debate.

Tests by the Program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies tell a similar story, only for older folks. Adult numeracy and literacy skills across the globe have been declining since 2017. Tests from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development show that test scores in adult literacy have been declining over the past decade.

Andreas Schleicher, the head of education and skills at the O.E.C.D., told The Financial Times, “Thirty percent of Americans read at a level that you would expect from a 10-year-old child.” He continued, “It is actually hard to imagine — that every third person you meet on the street has difficulties reading even simple things.”


This kind of literacy is the backbone of reasoning ability, the source of the background knowledge you need to make good decisions in a complicated world. As the retired general Jim Mattis and Bing West once wrote, “If you haven’t read hundreds of books, you are functionally illiterate, and you will be incompetent, because your personal experiences alone aren’t broad enough to sustain you.”

Nat Malkus of the American Enterprise Institute emphasizes that among children in the fourth and eighth grades, the declines are not the same across the board. Scores for children at the top of the distribution are not falling. It’s the scores of children toward the bottom that are collapsing. The achievement gap between the top and bottom scorers is bigger in America than in any other nation with similar data.

There are some obvious contributing factors for this general decline. Covid hurt test scores. America abandoned No Child Left Behind, which put a lot of emphasis on testing and reducing the achievement gap. But these declines started earlier, around 2012, so the main cause is probably screen time. And not just any screen time. Actively initiating a search for information on the web may not weaken your reasoning skills. But passively scrolling TikTok or X weakens everything from your ability to process verbal information to your working memory to your ability to focus. You might as well take a sledgehammer to your skull.
My biggest worry is that behavioral change is leading to cultural change. As we spend time on our screens, we’re abandoning a value that used to be pretty central to our culture — the idea that you should work hard to improve your capacity for wisdom and judgment all the days of your life. That education, including lifelong out-of-school learning, is really valuable.

This value is based on the idea that life is filled with hard choices: whom to marry, whom to vote for, whether to borrow money. Your best friend comes up to you and says, “My husband has been cheating on me. Should I divorce him?” To make these calls, you have to be able to discern what is central to the situation, envision possible outcomes, understand other minds, calculate probabilities.

To do this, you have to train your own mind, especially by reading and writing. As Johann Hari wrote in his book “Stolen Focus,” “The world is complex and requires steady focus to be understood; it needs to be thought about and comprehended slowly.” Reading a book puts you inside another person’s mind in a way that a Facebook post just doesn’t. Writing is the discipline that teaches you to take a jumble of thoughts and cohere them into a compelling point of view.​


Americans had less schooling in decades past, but out of this urge for intellectual self-improvement, they bought encyclopedias for their homes, subscribed to the Book of the Month Club and sat, with much longer attention spans, through long lectures or three-hour Lincoln-Douglas debates. Once you start using your mind, you find that learning isn’t merely calisthenics for your ability to render judgment; it’s intrinsically fun.
But today one gets the sense that a lot of people are disengaging from the whole idea of mental effort and mental training. Absenteeism rates soared during the pandemic and have remained high since. If American parents truly valued education would 26 percent of students have been chronically absent during the 2022-23 school year?

In 1984, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, 35 percent of 13-year-olds read for fun almost every day. By 2023, that number was down to 14 percent. The media is now rife with essays by college professors lamenting the decline in their students’ abilities. The Chronicle of Higher Education told the story of Anya Galli Robertson, who teaches sociology at the University of Dayton. She gives similar lectures, assigns the same books and gives the same tests that she always has. Years ago, students could handle it; now they are floundering.

Last year The Atlantic published an essay by Rose Horowitch titled “The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books.” One professor recalled the lively classroom discussions of books like “Crime and Punishment.” Now the students say they can’t handle that kind of reading load.



The philosophy professor Troy Jollimore wrote in The Walrus: “I once believed my students and I were in this together, engaged in a shared intellectual pursuit. That faith has been obliterated over the past few semesters. It’s not just the sheer volume of assignments that appear to be entirely generated by A.I. — papers that show no sign the student has listened to a lecture, done any of the assigned reading or even briefly entertained a single concept from the course.”

Older people have always complained about “kids these days,” but this time we have empirical data to show that the observations are true.
What happens when people lose the ability to reason or render good judgments? Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Donald Trump’s tariff policy. I’ve covered a lot of policies over the decades, some of which I supported and some of which I opposed. But I have never seen a policy as stupid as this one. It is based on false assumptions. It rests on no coherent argument in its favor. It relies on no empirical evidence. It has almost no experts on its side — from left, right or center. It is jumble-headedness exemplified. Trump himself personifies stupidity’s essential feature — self-satisfaction, an inability to recognize the flaws in your thinking. And of course when the approach led to absolutely predictable mayhem, Trump, lacking any coherent plan, backtracked, flip-flopped, responding impulsively to the pressures of the moment as his team struggled to keep up.
Producing something this stupid is not the work of a day; it is the achievement of a lifetime — relying on decades of incuriosity, decades of not cracking a book, decades of being impervious to evidence.
Back in Homer’s day, people lived within an oral culture, then humans slowly developed a literate culture. Now we seem to be moving to a screen culture. Civilization was fun while it lasted.
 
Not sure where this is from - sent to me in a chain e-mail without source:

You might have seen the various data points suggesting that Americans are losing their ability to reason.

The trend starts with the young. The percentage of fourth graders who score below basic in reading skills on the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests is the highest it has been in 20 years. The percentage of eighth graders below basic was the highest in the exam’s three-decade history. A fourth grader who is below basic cannot grasp the sequence of events in a story. An eighth grader can’t grasp the main idea of an essay or identify the different sides of a debate.

Tests by the Program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies tell a similar story, only for older folks. Adult numeracy and literacy skills across the globe have been declining since 2017. Tests from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development show that test scores in adult literacy have been declining over the past decade.

Andreas Schleicher, the head of education and skills at the O.E.C.D., told The Financial Times, “Thirty percent of Americans read at a level that you would expect from a 10-year-old child.” He continued, “It is actually hard to imagine — that every third person you meet on the street has difficulties reading even simple things.”


This kind of literacy is the backbone of reasoning ability, the source of the background knowledge you need to make good decisions in a complicated world. As the retired general Jim Mattis and Bing West once wrote, “If you haven’t read hundreds of books, you are functionally illiterate, and you will be incompetent, because your personal experiences alone aren’t broad enough to sustain you.”

Nat Malkus of the American Enterprise Institute emphasizes that among children in the fourth and eighth grades, the declines are not the same across the board. Scores for children at the top of the distribution are not falling. It’s the scores of children toward the bottom that are collapsing. The achievement gap between the top and bottom scorers is bigger in America than in any other nation with similar data.

There are some obvious contributing factors for this general decline. Covid hurt test scores. America abandoned No Child Left Behind, which put a lot of emphasis on testing and reducing the achievement gap. But these declines started earlier, around 2012, so the main cause is probably screen time. And not just any screen time. Actively initiating a search for information on the web may not weaken your reasoning skills. But passively scrolling TikTok or X weakens everything from your ability to process verbal information to your working memory to your ability to focus. You might as well take a sledgehammer to your skull.
My biggest worry is that behavioral change is leading to cultural change. As we spend time on our screens, we’re abandoning a value that used to be pretty central to our culture — the idea that you should work hard to improve your capacity for wisdom and judgment all the days of your life. That education, including lifelong out-of-school learning, is really valuable.

This value is based on the idea that life is filled with hard choices: whom to marry, whom to vote for, whether to borrow money. Your best friend comes up to you and says, “My husband has been cheating on me. Should I divorce him?” To make these calls, you have to be able to discern what is central to the situation, envision possible outcomes, understand other minds, calculate probabilities.

To do this, you have to train your own mind, especially by reading and writing. As Johann Hari wrote in his book “Stolen Focus,” “The world is complex and requires steady focus to be understood; it needs to be thought about and comprehended slowly.” Reading a book puts you inside another person’s mind in a way that a Facebook post just doesn’t. Writing is the discipline that teaches you to take a jumble of thoughts and cohere them into a compelling point of view.​


Americans had less schooling in decades past, but out of this urge for intellectual self-improvement, they bought encyclopedias for their homes, subscribed to the Book of the Month Club and sat, with much longer attention spans, through long lectures or three-hour Lincoln-Douglas debates. Once you start using your mind, you find that learning isn’t merely calisthenics for your ability to render judgment; it’s intrinsically fun.
But today one gets the sense that a lot of people are disengaging from the whole idea of mental effort and mental training. Absenteeism rates soared during the pandemic and have remained high since. If American parents truly valued education would 26 percent of students have been chronically absent during the 2022-23 school year?

In 1984, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, 35 percent of 13-year-olds read for fun almost every day. By 2023, that number was down to 14 percent. The media is now rife with essays by college professors lamenting the decline in their students’ abilities. The Chronicle of Higher Education told the story of Anya Galli Robertson, who teaches sociology at the University of Dayton. She gives similar lectures, assigns the same books and gives the same tests that she always has. Years ago, students could handle it; now they are floundering.

Last year The Atlantic published an essay by Rose Horowitch titled “The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books.” One professor recalled the lively classroom discussions of books like “Crime and Punishment.” Now the students say they can’t handle that kind of reading load.



The philosophy professor Troy Jollimore wrote in The Walrus: “I once believed my students and I were in this together, engaged in a shared intellectual pursuit. That faith has been obliterated over the past few semesters. It’s not just the sheer volume of assignments that appear to be entirely generated by A.I. — papers that show no sign the student has listened to a lecture, done any of the assigned reading or even briefly entertained a single concept from the course.”

Older people have always complained about “kids these days,” but this time we have empirical data to show that the observations are true.
What happens when people lose the ability to reason or render good judgments? Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Donald Trump’s tariff policy. I’ve covered a lot of policies over the decades, some of which I supported and some of which I opposed. But I have never seen a policy as stupid as this one. It is based on false assumptions. It rests on no coherent argument in its favor. It relies on no empirical evidence. It has almost no experts on its side — from left, right or center. It is jumble-headedness exemplified. Trump himself personifies stupidity’s essential feature — self-satisfaction, an inability to recognize the flaws in your thinking. And of course when the approach led to absolutely predictable mayhem, Trump, lacking any coherent plan, backtracked, flip-flopped, responding impulsively to the pressures of the moment as his team struggled to keep up.
Producing something this stupid is not the work of a day; it is the achievement of a lifetime — relying on decades of incuriosity, decades of not cracking a book, decades of being impervious to evidence.
Back in Homer’s day, people lived within an oral culture, then humans slowly developed a literate culture. Now we seem to be moving to a screen culture. Civilization was fun while it lasted.
Will you at least admit that Trump is right about China and other countries ripping us off with their trade practices? If we can all just agree on this then we can solve this problem because it will get worse and not better unless we do something about it.
 
Will you at least admit that Trump is right about China and other countries ripping us off with their trade practices? If we can all just agree on this then we can solve this problem because it will get worse and not better unless we do something about it.
I agree we have trade deficits all around the globe.

I let the 6 economists fight over 36 opinions how to fix such a thing.
 
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Not sure where this is from - sent to me in a chain e-mail without source:

You might have seen the various data points suggesting that Americans are losing their ability to reason.

The trend starts with the young. The percentage of fourth graders who score below basic in reading skills on the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests is the highest it has been in 20 years. The percentage of eighth graders below basic was the highest in the exam’s three-decade history. A fourth grader who is below basic cannot grasp the sequence of events in a story. An eighth grader can’t grasp the main idea of an essay or identify the different sides of a debate.

Tests by the Program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies tell a similar story, only for older folks. Adult numeracy and literacy skills across the globe have been declining since 2017. Tests from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development show that test scores in adult literacy have been declining over the past decade.

Andreas Schleicher, the head of education and skills at the O.E.C.D., told The Financial Times, “Thirty percent of Americans read at a level that you would expect from a 10-year-old child.” He continued, “It is actually hard to imagine — that every third person you meet on the street has difficulties reading even simple things.”


This kind of literacy is the backbone of reasoning ability, the source of the background knowledge you need to make good decisions in a complicated world. As the retired general Jim Mattis and Bing West once wrote, “If you haven’t read hundreds of books, you are functionally illiterate, and you will be incompetent, because your personal experiences alone aren’t broad enough to sustain you.”

Nat Malkus of the American Enterprise Institute emphasizes that among children in the fourth and eighth grades, the declines are not the same across the board. Scores for children at the top of the distribution are not falling. It’s the scores of children toward the bottom that are collapsing. The achievement gap between the top and bottom scorers is bigger in America than in any other nation with similar data.

There are some obvious contributing factors for this general decline. Covid hurt test scores. America abandoned No Child Left Behind, which put a lot of emphasis on testing and reducing the achievement gap. But these declines started earlier, around 2012, so the main cause is probably screen time. And not just any screen time. Actively initiating a search for information on the web may not weaken your reasoning skills. But passively scrolling TikTok or X weakens everything from your ability to process verbal information to your working memory to your ability to focus. You might as well take a sledgehammer to your skull.
My biggest worry is that behavioral change is leading to cultural change. As we spend time on our screens, we’re abandoning a value that used to be pretty central to our culture — the idea that you should work hard to improve your capacity for wisdom and judgment all the days of your life. That education, including lifelong out-of-school learning, is really valuable.

This value is based on the idea that life is filled with hard choices: whom to marry, whom to vote for, whether to borrow money. Your best friend comes up to you and says, “My husband has been cheating on me. Should I divorce him?” To make these calls, you have to be able to discern what is central to the situation, envision possible outcomes, understand other minds, calculate probabilities.

To do this, you have to train your own mind, especially by reading and writing. As Johann Hari wrote in his book “Stolen Focus,” “The world is complex and requires steady focus to be understood; it needs to be thought about and comprehended slowly.” Reading a book puts you inside another person’s mind in a way that a Facebook post just doesn’t. Writing is the discipline that teaches you to take a jumble of thoughts and cohere them into a compelling point of view.​


Americans had less schooling in decades past, but out of this urge for intellectual self-improvement, they bought encyclopedias for their homes, subscribed to the Book of the Month Club and sat, with much longer attention spans, through long lectures or three-hour Lincoln-Douglas debates. Once you start using your mind, you find that learning isn’t merely calisthenics for your ability to render judgment; it’s intrinsically fun.
But today one gets the sense that a lot of people are disengaging from the whole idea of mental effort and mental training. Absenteeism rates soared during the pandemic and have remained high since. If American parents truly valued education would 26 percent of students have been chronically absent during the 2022-23 school year?

In 1984, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, 35 percent of 13-year-olds read for fun almost every day. By 2023, that number was down to 14 percent. The media is now rife with essays by college professors lamenting the decline in their students’ abilities. The Chronicle of Higher Education told the story of Anya Galli Robertson, who teaches sociology at the University of Dayton. She gives similar lectures, assigns the same books and gives the same tests that she always has. Years ago, students could handle it; now they are floundering.

Last year The Atlantic published an essay by Rose Horowitch titled “The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books.” One professor recalled the lively classroom discussions of books like “Crime and Punishment.” Now the students say they can’t handle that kind of reading load.



The philosophy professor Troy Jollimore wrote in The Walrus: “I once believed my students and I were in this together, engaged in a shared intellectual pursuit. That faith has been obliterated over the past few semesters. It’s not just the sheer volume of assignments that appear to be entirely generated by A.I. — papers that show no sign the student has listened to a lecture, done any of the assigned reading or even briefly entertained a single concept from the course.”

Older people have always complained about “kids these days,” but this time we have empirical data to show that the observations are true.
What happens when people lose the ability to reason or render good judgments? Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Donald Trump’s tariff policy. I’ve covered a lot of policies over the decades, some of which I supported and some of which I opposed. But I have never seen a policy as stupid as this one. It is based on false assumptions. It rests on no coherent argument in its favor. It relies on no empirical evidence. It has almost no experts on its side — from left, right or center. It is jumble-headedness exemplified. Trump himself personifies stupidity’s essential feature — self-satisfaction, an inability to recognize the flaws in your thinking. And of course when the approach led to absolutely predictable mayhem, Trump, lacking any coherent plan, backtracked, flip-flopped, responding impulsively to the pressures of the moment as his team struggled to keep up.
Producing something this stupid is not the work of a day; it is the achievement of a lifetime — relying on decades of incuriosity, decades of not cracking a book, decades of being impervious to evidence.
Back in Homer’s day, people lived within an oral culture, then humans slowly developed a literate culture. Now we seem to be moving to a screen culture. Civilization was fun while it lasted.
It's not just screens. It's 45 years of income inequality as well (think Appalachia). We're witnessing the 2nd generation. Imagine what the 3rd and 4th generations will look like.
 
Will you at least admit that Trump is right about China and other countries ripping us off with their trade practices? If we can all just agree on this then we can solve this problem because it will get worse and not better unless we do something about it.
I've never seen someone miss the mark by as widely as you just did.
 
It's not just screens. It's 45 years of income inequality as well (think Appalachia). We're witnessing the 2nd generation. Imagine what the 3rd and 4th generations will look like.
That's a good point. I think there also is - sadly, to be sure - something to be said for society's failures being more connected and more visible. In decades past, those poor uneducated f*cks in Appalachia would be born, live, and die, and most of us would never know about them. Now, they have social media, and we all must realize they exist. But I don't think they are new.
 
That's a good point. I think there also is - sadly, to be sure - something to be said for society's failures being more connected and more visible. In decades past, those poor uneducated f*cks in Appalachia would be born, live, and die, and most of us would never know about them. Now, they have social media, and we all must realize they exist. But I don't think they are new.

I’ll challenge you, too. Because I think this is as nonsensical as VPM’s contention.

Why is unequal income a failure of society?
 
It has to be a lot closer than 300 Billion. In what world can someone think that this can continue on and there won't be serious ramifications?

Well, what ramifications do you think there will be?

I’ll grant you this much: the world (not just us) is making China richer and richer, and their government is no damn good. So, in the sense that we’re enriching and/or empowering people who have a totalitarian worldview, I share those concerns.

But if they removed all trade barriers and tripled their US imports tomorrow, that would still be the case.

But If you’re under the impression that a trade imbalance makes the country on the short side of that imbalance less wealthy, take solace in knowing that this isn’t true.
 
I’ll challenge you, too. Because I think this is as nonsensical as VPM’s contention.

Why is unequal income a failure of society?
Not to speak for goat but I suspect he believes a country of our resources should be able to provide better “equal” opportunities. Not outcomes as AOC and Harris and the left today actually want but opportunities.

And we don’t truly have equal opportunities. Someone in Appalachia, not an anomalous outlier story, but the norm just doesn’t. Someone in north Stl. Deprived of intergenerational wealth and opportunity.

It’s a long criticism of the historic pub philosophy presupposing people just need to pick themselves up. The truth is we all aren’t starting at the same starting block.

If people felt that equality of opportunity truly applied to all I don’t think you’d have the resentment and vitriol associated with billionaires. Personally I don’t care if we have trillionaires. Good for them. Spend. As long we have guardrails so they don’t put lunatic DAs in 75 cities and take over the fed gov.

Incidentally speaking of billionaires they can come from anywhere. Jack Dorsey went to a lower class Stl City school. Police dispatch was his inspiration for Twitter. My old teammate and very close friend went to Miami plantation high. Alums. Jeff Bezos. Tim hardaway jr. Music sensation Camilo cabello. S. Ct. justice KBJ, Bob marleys kid, and the last American hero kimbo sliceeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. One very diverse rocking it school

So greatness can come from anywhere. But there has to be a threshold for it to blossom and in large swaths of America it’s not there
 
I've never seen someone miss the mark by as widely as you just did.
Big Cat Football GIF by Barstool Sports
 
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Not to speak for goat but I suspect he believes a country of our resources should be able to provide better “equal” opportunities. Not outcomes as AOC and Harris and the left today actually want but opportunities.

And we don’t truly have equal opportunities. Someone in Appalachia, not an anomalous outlier story, but the norm just doesn’t. Someone in north Stl. Deprived of intergenerational wealth and opportunity.

It’s a long criticism of the historic pub philosophy presupposing people just need to pick themselves up. The truth is we all aren’t starting at the same starting block.

If people felt that equality of opportunity truly applied to all I don’t think you’d have the resentment and vitriol associated with billionaires. Personally I don’t care if we have trillionaires. Good for them. Spend. As long we have guardrails so they don’t put lunatic DAs in 75 cities and take over the fed gov.

Incidentally speaking of billionaires they can come from anywhere. Jack Dorsey went to a lower class Stl City school. Police dispatch was his inspiration for Twitter. My old teammate and very close friend went to Miami plantation high. Alums. Jeff Bezos. Tim hardaway jr. Music sensation Camilo cabello. S. Ct. justice KBJ, Bob marleys kid, and the last American hero kimbo sliceeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. One very diverse rocking it school

So greatness can come from anywhere. But there has to be a threshold for it to blossom and in large swaths of America it’s not there

Well, the debate between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome is an age old one. Suffice it to say, we’ll never have either one. But, if we’re going to aim to use public policy to address either one, it should be the former.

Maybe a better question to ponder is how much of this burden falls on society and how much falls on the individual.

After all, society can’t really do much to prevent people from making bad choices that are known to contribute to negative outcomes. Even if we outlaw or tightly restrict things like gambling and drug usage, people who are inclined to engage in them are going to do it. I’m all for educating people about where babies come from and how much of a burden they can be when you aren’t prepared to have one. But people are going to screw pretty much every chance they get. And, clearly, bearing children when you don’t have the wherewithal to raise them is a pretty good indicator of where you’re headed in terms of financial well-being.

This isn’t so much a “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” speech as it is “quit doing stuff that adds to your struggles” kind of speech.

And, I’m sorry, but society didn’t cause these problems for people, and can’t fix them either.

If people make good life choices, they’re very likely to have better outcomes. And the paradigm of treating them as a social responsibility rather than a personal one is, IMO, a big part of what has gotten where we are today.
 
Well, what ramifications do you think there will be?

I’ll grant you this much: the world (not just us) is making China richer and richer, and their government is no damn good. So, in the sense that we’re enriching and/or empowering people who have a totalitarian worldview, I share those concerns.

But if they removed all trade barriers and tripled their US imports tomorrow, that would still be the case.

But If you’re under the impression that a trade imbalance makes the country on the short side of that imbalance less wealthy, take solace in knowing that this isn’t true.
There is another component that people forget when it comes to trade imbalances/deficits--a significant amount of imports we get are then used for exporting (automobile parts, etc), that allows for great export numbers. Again, this back to Adam Smith and David Ricardo--it is okay to have other countries /markets specialize if it generates the most income at the best price for consumers--it is an efficient market.
 
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There is another component that people forget when it comes to trade imbalances/deficits--a significant amount of imports we get are then used for exporting (automobile parts, etc), that allows for great export numbers. Again, this back to Adam Smith and David Ricardo--it is okay to have other countries /markets to have specialization if it generates the most income at the best price for consumers--it is an efficient market.
Very good point as well.

And, yes, people who are aghast at this trade data would do very well to read Ricardo (in particular) on comparative advantage.

It’s frustrating that so many people see this the way VPM does - that a $300b trade deficit with China represents their gain at our loss. That’s just not how this works.

But it’s hard, because it is true that there are winners and losers with foreign trade (as there are in all other aspects of commerce, BTW).

You could say the same about technological advancement, which has displaced far more jobs of yore than foreign trade or immigration ever have. But does that mean we should become Luddites?
 
Well, the debate between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome is an age old one. Suffice it to say, we’ll never have either one. But, if we’re going to aim to use public policy to address either one, it should be the former.

Maybe a better question to ponder is how much of this burden falls on society and how much falls on the individual.

After all, society can’t really do much to prevent people from making bad choices that are known to contribute to negative outcomes. Even if we outlaw or tightly restrict things like gambling and drug usage, people who are inclined to engage in them are going to do it. I’m all for educating people about where babies come from and how much of a burden they can be when you aren’t prepared to have one. But people are going to screw pretty much every chance they get. And, clearly, bearing children when you don’t have the wherewithal to raise them is a pretty good indicator of where you’re headed in terms of financial well-being.

This isn’t so much a “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” speech as it is “quit doing stuff that adds to your struggles” kind of speech.

And, I’m sorry, but society didn’t cause these problems for people, and can’t fix them either.

If people make good life choices, they’re very likely to have better outcomes. And the paradigm of treating them as a social responsibility rather than a personal one is, IMO, a big part of what has gotten where we are today.
You've tried to make distinction between opportunity and outcome, but you have mashed them together.

I think @mcmurtry66 is simply pointing out that the starting gate for various people isn't the same in many cases and the track is shorter for some individuals. Equal outcomes for all is an impossibility and we aren't widgets. Equal opportunity might be a herculean task, but could be, at least conceptually, accomplished. Individual bad choices are there for all, and that opportunity squandered can't be a problem the government can or should fix. You can give other opportunities, but you are off the mark at that point.
 
Not sure where this is from - sent to me in a chain e-mail without source:

You might have seen the various data points suggesting that Americans are losing their ability to reason.

The trend starts with the young. The percentage of fourth graders who score below basic in reading skills on the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests is the highest it has been in 20 years. The percentage of eighth graders below basic was the highest in the exam’s three-decade history. A fourth grader who is below basic cannot grasp the sequence of events in a story. An eighth grader can’t grasp the main idea of an essay or identify the different sides of a debate.

Tests by the Program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies tell a similar story, only for older folks. Adult numeracy and literacy skills across the globe have been declining since 2017. Tests from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development show that test scores in adult literacy have been declining over the past decade.

Andreas Schleicher, the head of education and skills at the O.E.C.D., told The Financial Times, “Thirty percent of Americans read at a level that you would expect from a 10-year-old child.” He continued, “It is actually hard to imagine — that every third person you meet on the street has difficulties reading even simple things.”


This kind of literacy is the backbone of reasoning ability, the source of the background knowledge you need to make good decisions in a complicated world. As the retired general Jim Mattis and Bing West once wrote, “If you haven’t read hundreds of books, you are functionally illiterate, and you will be incompetent, because your personal experiences alone aren’t broad enough to sustain you.”

Nat Malkus of the American Enterprise Institute emphasizes that among children in the fourth and eighth grades, the declines are not the same across the board. Scores for children at the top of the distribution are not falling. It’s the scores of children toward the bottom that are collapsing. The achievement gap between the top and bottom scorers is bigger in America than in any other nation with similar data.

There are some obvious contributing factors for this general decline. Covid hurt test scores. America abandoned No Child Left Behind, which put a lot of emphasis on testing and reducing the achievement gap. But these declines started earlier, around 2012, so the main cause is probably screen time. And not just any screen time. Actively initiating a search for information on the web may not weaken your reasoning skills. But passively scrolling TikTok or X weakens everything from your ability to process verbal information to your working memory to your ability to focus. You might as well take a sledgehammer to your skull.
My biggest worry is that behavioral change is leading to cultural change. As we spend time on our screens, we’re abandoning a value that used to be pretty central to our culture — the idea that you should work hard to improve your capacity for wisdom and judgment all the days of your life. That education, including lifelong out-of-school learning, is really valuable.

This value is based on the idea that life is filled with hard choices: whom to marry, whom to vote for, whether to borrow money. Your best friend comes up to you and says, “My husband has been cheating on me. Should I divorce him?” To make these calls, you have to be able to discern what is central to the situation, envision possible outcomes, understand other minds, calculate probabilities.

To do this, you have to train your own mind, especially by reading and writing. As Johann Hari wrote in his book “Stolen Focus,” “The world is complex and requires steady focus to be understood; it needs to be thought about and comprehended slowly.” Reading a book puts you inside another person’s mind in a way that a Facebook post just doesn’t. Writing is the discipline that teaches you to take a jumble of thoughts and cohere them into a compelling point of view.​


Americans had less schooling in decades past, but out of this urge for intellectual self-improvement, they bought encyclopedias for their homes, subscribed to the Book of the Month Club and sat, with much longer attention spans, through long lectures or three-hour Lincoln-Douglas debates. Once you start using your mind, you find that learning isn’t merely calisthenics for your ability to render judgment; it’s intrinsically fun.
But today one gets the sense that a lot of people are disengaging from the whole idea of mental effort and mental training. Absenteeism rates soared during the pandemic and have remained high since. If American parents truly valued education would 26 percent of students have been chronically absent during the 2022-23 school year?

In 1984, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, 35 percent of 13-year-olds read for fun almost every day. By 2023, that number was down to 14 percent. The media is now rife with essays by college professors lamenting the decline in their students’ abilities. The Chronicle of Higher Education told the story of Anya Galli Robertson, who teaches sociology at the University of Dayton. She gives similar lectures, assigns the same books and gives the same tests that she always has. Years ago, students could handle it; now they are floundering.

Last year The Atlantic published an essay by Rose Horowitch titled “The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books.” One professor recalled the lively classroom discussions of books like “Crime and Punishment.” Now the students say they can’t handle that kind of reading load.



The philosophy professor Troy Jollimore wrote in The Walrus: “I once believed my students and I were in this together, engaged in a shared intellectual pursuit. That faith has been obliterated over the past few semesters. It’s not just the sheer volume of assignments that appear to be entirely generated by A.I. — papers that show no sign the student has listened to a lecture, done any of the assigned reading or even briefly entertained a single concept from the course.”

Older people have always complained about “kids these days,” but this time we have empirical data to show that the observations are true.
What happens when people lose the ability to reason or render good judgments? Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Donald Trump’s tariff policy. I’ve covered a lot of policies over the decades, some of which I supported and some of which I opposed. But I have never seen a policy as stupid as this one. It is based on false assumptions. It rests on no coherent argument in its favor. It relies on no empirical evidence. It has almost no experts on its side — from left, right or center. It is jumble-headedness exemplified. Trump himself personifies stupidity’s essential feature — self-satisfaction, an inability to recognize the flaws in your thinking. And of course when the approach led to absolutely predictable mayhem, Trump, lacking any coherent plan, backtracked, flip-flopped, responding impulsively to the pressures of the moment as his team struggled to keep up.
Producing something this stupid is not the work of a day; it is the achievement of a lifetime — relying on decades of incuriosity, decades of not cracking a book, decades of being impervious to evidence.
Back in Homer’s day, people lived within an oral culture, then humans slowly developed a literate culture. Now we seem to be moving to a screen culture. Civilization was fun while it lasted.
An excellent message with very important points.

I’d love to sit down with the author and have a serious and frank discussion about all of this. He seems to set aside his theme in order to make very simplistic Trump jab.

Among the first questions I’d ask is “what if Trump’s Tariff Policy is not a policy?” Even a light-weight like Adam Schiff poses the very important question.
 
I think @mcmurtry66 is simply pointing out that the starting gate for various people isn't the same in many cases and the track is shorter for some individuals.

Well, of course. It’s always been the case, it always will be the case. I take this as a given.

My primary goal as a parent is to provide the best platform and opportunities for my kids to realize their full potentials and lead happy, prosperous lives. I’m more able to do that than many other parents are. And there are others more able to do that than me.


Equal outcomes for all is an impossibility and we aren't widgets. Equal opportunity might be a herculean task, but could be, at least conceptually, accomplished.

I highly doubt it.

But, of course, public policy should strive to create opportunities for people - and I’d hate to live in a society where somebody can do all the right things, work hard, make responsible choices, live within their means, etc. and just have no opportunity to turn that into a really good outcome.

But it’s ultimately up to each of us to capitalize on our opportunities and to avoid the pitfalls that lead to bad places.

Even kids who grow up in well-off families have no guarantees. I’ve known many of them who have made utter messes of their lives.

The starting points absolutely do matter. I agree with that. But it’s not only about having money. It’s about having the right values, right mentors, right friends, etc.
 
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Among the first questions I’d ask is “what if Trump’s Tariff Policy is not a policy?” Even a light-weight like Adam Schiff poses the very important question.
What difference would it make--even assuming you could try to say the policy wasn't really a policy. The Tariffs exist. The Tariffs' implementation had a cause and effect. Tariffs were authorized and executed by one guy.
 
The starting points absolutely do matter. I agree with that. But it’s not only about having money. It’s about having the right values, right mentors, right friends, etc.
How much of having right values, right mentors, right friends etc. is happenstance compared with being a right person. In many respects, I don’t think starting points matter as much as we think they do. No matter where the starting point is, all of us have the means to accelerate away from that starting point towards accomplishments.
My primary goal as a parent is to provide the best platform and opportunities for my kids to realize their full potentials and lead happy, prosperous lives. And I’m more able to do that than many other parents are. And there are others more able to do that for others.
A happy and prosorus life has no objectivity. A family living in a primitive hut along the Amazon River can be happy and prosperous while a NYC investment banker living on the 40th floor with an outstanding view might not be either happy or feel prosperous.
 
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What difference would it make--even assuming you could try to say the policy wasn't really a policy. The Tariffs exist. The Tariffs' implementation had a cause and effect. Tariffs were authorized and executed by one guy.
The tariffs have been suspended. Could have been the plan. Could have been the appropriate response to the bond sell offs. Schiff thinks it was a market play. Trump and some of his negotiators claim >70 countries are wanting to negotiate trade deals now. Maybe it took a seismic event to get their attention.
 
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How much of having right values, right mentors, right friends etc. is happenstance compared with being a right person. In many respects, I don’t think starting points matter as much as we think they do. No matter where the starting point is, all of us have the means to accelerate away from that starting point towards accomplishments.

A happy and prosorus life has no objectivity. A family living in a primitive hut along the Amazon River can be happy and prosperous while a NYC investment banker living on the 40th floor with an outstanding view might not be either happy or feel prosperous.
Starting points matter and carry on through life for most of us. I posit that the schools kids go to and the peers they keep are as influential and determinative and maybe more than parents and parenting. Appalachian kids hood kids don’t get the foundation from the system necessary to rise
 
Not sure where this is from - sent to me in a chain e-mail without source:

You might have seen the various data points suggesting that Americans are losing their ability to reason.

The trend starts with the young. The percentage of fourth graders who score below basic in reading skills on the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests is the highest it has been in 20 years. The percentage of eighth graders below basic was the highest in the exam’s three-decade history. A fourth grader who is below basic cannot grasp the sequence of events in a story. An eighth grader can’t grasp the main idea of an essay or identify the different sides of a debate.

Tests by the Program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies tell a similar story, only for older folks. Adult numeracy and literacy skills across the globe have been declining since 2017. Tests from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development show that test scores in adult literacy have been declining over the past decade.

Andreas Schleicher, the head of education and skills at the O.E.C.D., told The Financial Times, “Thirty percent of Americans read at a level that you would expect from a 10-year-old child.” He continued, “It is actually hard to imagine — that every third person you meet on the street has difficulties reading even simple things.”


This kind of literacy is the backbone of reasoning ability, the source of the background knowledge you need to make good decisions in a complicated world. As the retired general Jim Mattis and Bing West once wrote, “If you haven’t read hundreds of books, you are functionally illiterate, and you will be incompetent, because your personal experiences alone aren’t broad enough to sustain you.”

Nat Malkus of the American Enterprise Institute emphasizes that among children in the fourth and eighth grades, the declines are not the same across the board. Scores for children at the top of the distribution are not falling. It’s the scores of children toward the bottom that are collapsing. The achievement gap between the top and bottom scorers is bigger in America than in any other nation with similar data.

There are some obvious contributing factors for this general decline. Covid hurt test scores. America abandoned No Child Left Behind, which put a lot of emphasis on testing and reducing the achievement gap. But these declines started earlier, around 2012, so the main cause is probably screen time. And not just any screen time. Actively initiating a search for information on the web may not weaken your reasoning skills. But passively scrolling TikTok or X weakens everything from your ability to process verbal information to your working memory to your ability to focus. You might as well take a sledgehammer to your skull.
My biggest worry is that behavioral change is leading to cultural change. As we spend time on our screens, we’re abandoning a value that used to be pretty central to our culture — the idea that you should work hard to improve your capacity for wisdom and judgment all the days of your life. That education, including lifelong out-of-school learning, is really valuable.

This value is based on the idea that life is filled with hard choices: whom to marry, whom to vote for, whether to borrow money. Your best friend comes up to you and says, “My husband has been cheating on me. Should I divorce him?” To make these calls, you have to be able to discern what is central to the situation, envision possible outcomes, understand other minds, calculate probabilities.

To do this, you have to train your own mind, especially by reading and writing. As Johann Hari wrote in his book “Stolen Focus,” “The world is complex and requires steady focus to be understood; it needs to be thought about and comprehended slowly.” Reading a book puts you inside another person’s mind in a way that a Facebook post just doesn’t. Writing is the discipline that teaches you to take a jumble of thoughts and cohere them into a compelling point of view.​


Americans had less schooling in decades past, but out of this urge for intellectual self-improvement, they bought encyclopedias for their homes, subscribed to the Book of the Month Club and sat, with much longer attention spans, through long lectures or three-hour Lincoln-Douglas debates. Once you start using your mind, you find that learning isn’t merely calisthenics for your ability to render judgment; it’s intrinsically fun.
But today one gets the sense that a lot of people are disengaging from the whole idea of mental effort and mental training. Absenteeism rates soared during the pandemic and have remained high since. If American parents truly valued education would 26 percent of students have been chronically absent during the 2022-23 school year?

In 1984, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, 35 percent of 13-year-olds read for fun almost every day. By 2023, that number was down to 14 percent. The media is now rife with essays by college professors lamenting the decline in their students’ abilities. The Chronicle of Higher Education told the story of Anya Galli Robertson, who teaches sociology at the University of Dayton. She gives similar lectures, assigns the same books and gives the same tests that she always has. Years ago, students could handle it; now they are floundering.

Last year The Atlantic published an essay by Rose Horowitch titled “The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books.” One professor recalled the lively classroom discussions of books like “Crime and Punishment.” Now the students say they can’t handle that kind of reading load.



The philosophy professor Troy Jollimore wrote in The Walrus: “I once believed my students and I were in this together, engaged in a shared intellectual pursuit. That faith has been obliterated over the past few semesters. It’s not just the sheer volume of assignments that appear to be entirely generated by A.I. — papers that show no sign the student has listened to a lecture, done any of the assigned reading or even briefly entertained a single concept from the course.”

Older people have always complained about “kids these days,” but this time we have empirical data to show that the observations are true.
What happens when people lose the ability to reason or render good judgments? Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Donald Trump’s tariff policy. I’ve covered a lot of policies over the decades, some of which I supported and some of which I opposed. But I have never seen a policy as stupid as this one. It is based on false assumptions. It rests on no coherent argument in its favor. It relies on no empirical evidence. It has almost no experts on its side — from left, right or center. It is jumble-headedness exemplified. Trump himself personifies stupidity’s essential feature — self-satisfaction, an inability to recognize the flaws in your thinking. And of course when the approach led to absolutely predictable mayhem, Trump, lacking any coherent plan, backtracked, flip-flopped, responding impulsively to the pressures of the moment as his team struggled to keep up.
Producing something this stupid is not the work of a day; it is the achievement of a lifetime — relying on decades of incuriosity, decades of not cracking a book, decades of being impervious to evidence.
Back in Homer’s day, people lived within an oral culture, then humans slowly developed a literate culture. Now we seem to be moving to a screen culture. Civilization was fun while it lasted.
This reads like something that old people share on Facebook
 
A happy and prosorus life has no objectivity. A family living in a primitive hut along the Amazon River can be happy and prosperous while a NYC investment banker living on the 40th floor with an outstanding view might not be either happy or feel prosperous.

That’s certainly true.

I visited Tanzania a few years ago. Not only did the people there not strike me as miserable, they struck me as quite happy. And I don’t just mean the tour guides (which is a pretty good gig there). But just the common folks in the towns, the Maasai village, the school we visited.

Reagan had a line about growing up poor in Illinois, but not thinking of themselves that way because nobody told them they were.
 
That’s certainly true.

I visited Tanzania a few years ago. Not only did the people there not strike me as miserable, they struck me as quite happy. And I don’t just mean the tour guides (which is a pretty good gig there). But just the common folks in the towns, the Maasai village, the school we visited.

Reagan had a line about growing up poor in Illinois, but not thinking of themselves that way because nobody told them they were.
images
 
Well, the debate between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome is an age old one. Suffice it to say, we’ll never have either one. But, if we’re going to aim to use public policy to address either one, it should be the former.

Maybe a better question to ponder is how much of this burden falls on society and how much falls on the individual.

After all, society can’t really do much to prevent people from making bad choices that are known to contribute to negative outcomes. Even if we outlaw or tightly restrict things like gambling and drug usage, people who are inclined to engage in them are going to do it. I’m all for educating people about where babies come from and how much of a burden they can be when you aren’t prepared to have one. But people are going to screw pretty much every chance they get. And, clearly, bearing children when you don’t have the wherewithal to raise them is a pretty good indicator of where you’re headed in terms of financial well-being.

This isn’t so much a “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” speech as it is “quit doing stuff that adds to your struggles” kind of speech.

And, I’m sorry, but society didn’t cause these problems for people, and can’t fix them either.

If people make good life choices, they’re very likely to have better outcomes. And the paradigm of treating them as a social responsibility rather than a personal one is, IMO, a big part of what has gotten where we are today.
Your argument just doesn't work for when the opportunity/spending matters most--for children ages 0-16 or thereabouts. Your theory saddles those children unfortunate enough to be born to people who "did stuff that adds to [their] struggles" with a lack of opportunity.

The response "well, the world isn't fair" is besides the point to the notion that we should make it fairer.
 
Starting points matter and carry on through life for most of us. I posit that the schools kids go to and the peers they keep are as influential and determinative and maybe more than parents and parenting. Appalachian kids hood kids don’t get the foundation from the system necessary to rise
Starting points matter to the tubes, like Jasmine Crocket. She talks about being “done picking cotton” like it ended last week. I agree peers and schools matter a lot. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Each of us have the ability to change that, a big part of the reason it won’t change is people like Jasmine Crockett.

It’s a doom loop.
 
Starting points matter to the tubes, like Jasmine Crocket. She talks about being “done picking cotton” like it ended last week. I agree peers and schools matter a lot. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Each of us have the ability to change that, a big part of the reason it won’t change is people like Jasmine Crockett.

It’s a doom loop.
The "tubes?"
 
Starting points matter to the tubes, like Jasmine Crocket. She talks about being “done picking cotton” like it ended last week. I agree peers and schools matter a lot. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Each of us have the ability to change that, a big part of the reason it won’t change is people like Jasmine Crockett.

It’s a doom loop.
To anyone outside of the woke there’s a massive problem with black culture. And Crockett only makes it worse by perpetuating it. That doesn’t mean a kid in north Stl isn’t challenged.

I went to a lower class high school. My partner’s dad had the number two locker at old warson. Oldddddd ladue $. I waited for drs to fck up Hoosiers friends to get hit on the Highway and cops to get hurt at work. He did securities and deposited fat retainers.

Where you start in life isn’t dispositive but it makes a huge difference.

Today I’m blessed bc those same lawyers with money fund my get rich schemes. But I started just high enough to be able to get to college. The hood. Appalachia. Must feel impossible. Not even on their radar
 
Your argument just doesn't work for when the opportunity/spending matters most--for children ages 0-16 or thereabouts. Your theory saddles those children unfortunate enough to be born to people who "did stuff that adds to [their] struggles" with a lack of opportunity.

The response "well, the world isn't fair" is besides the point to the notion that we should make it fairer.

Did I not say that we should pursue expansion of opportunity? I did, more than once.

But I’d argue that a whole lot of public policy is less about expanding opportunities than it is insulating people from the consequences of their own choices, behaviors, etc, pointing the finger at society, and spreading the burdens of those consequences to society.

I can’t say it any better than Benny Franklin did several centuries ago.

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.​
In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.​
There is no country in the world where so many provisions are established for them; so many hospitals to receive them when they are sick or lame, founded and maintained by voluntary charities; so many alms-houses for the aged of both sexes, together with a solemn general law made by the rich to subject their estates to a heavy tax for the support of the poor.​
Under all these obligations, are our poor modest, humble, and thankful; and do they use their best endeavors to maintain themselves, and lighten our shoulders of this burthen? On the contrary, I affirm that there is no country in the world in which the poor are more idle, dissolute, drunken, and insolent.​
The day you passed that act, you took away from before their eyes the greatest of all inducements to industry, frugality, and sobriety, by giving them a dependence on somewhat else than a careful accumulation during youth and health, for support in age or sickness.​
In short, you offered a premium for the encouragement of idleness, and you should not now wonder that it has had its effect in the increase of poverty. Repeal that law, and you will soon see a change in their manners.​
Can anybody argue with a straight face that he was wrong? Would you?
 
Starting points matter to the tubes, like Jasmine Crocket. She talks about being “done picking cotton” like it ended last week. I agree peers and schools matter a lot. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Each of us have the ability to change that, a big part of the reason it won’t change is people like Jasmine Crockett.

It’s a doom loop.
So your argument is that regardless of upbringing/socio-economic status, etc, each child has the equal ability to change his or her course to be of equal standing as to the young Donald Trump or George Bush or Rockefeller? Or even just an upper middle class kid? That couldn't possibly be true.

The "done picking cotton stuff" is obviously a metaphor, but of course it doesn't help when the president talks about "black jobs". What's a black job?
 
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