NIT Success Lead to Program Success?
- Thread starter hoosierdaddy_1972
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A bad first round loss would have been a bad way to end the season. Playing good enough to win 2 games without Romeo is experience to build on for next year.
I have often wondered if a first round NCAA loss is still better than a deep NIT run. I still don't have an answer. Disappointment in not making the NCAA could be enough to motivate the returning players. I hope we can get to New York so they can get a feel for a Final 4 situation. Until then, we have been playing home games. The experience playing together is good, but not representative of the NCAA tournament.
I want Romeo to play if it helps us win. Part of me wants to see if we can win it without him.
I think this article is mostly nonsense.
IU women's basketball was better this year than last because we had better players.. Patberg & Wise very effectively replaced Buss & Cahill. Penn & Yeaney, two sophs, inproved over last year, as would be expected. And they added two talented freshmen in Golbe & Berger. I think the NIT run last year had very little to do with it.
Likewise, I think how we do this year in the NIT will have very little to do with next year, unless by chance some recruit/transfer who can help sees us play and likes what he sees.
Do people really not understand that once the season is over team practice is done until next year? Practice makes teams better. Playing games makes teams better. Individuals mostly improve through offseason work, but playing pick up games vs actual practice (which most of the year they couldn't work 5 on 5 due to injuries). If we were a senior lead team (ok, Morgan), it wouldn't matter as much for next year, but this team is very young (again start 2 freshmen and 2 Sophomores). So, yes, this experience is extremely valueable for taking the next step (making the tourney) and possibly being able to skip a step or two (to getting a decent seeding, competing for the B10 title, and/or winning some games in the tourney). Coming from how far down the program/roster were 2 years ago takes steps to build sustained success. Patience....
You think those young players getting more game time and practice time as a team didn't help them improve? You understand they were practicing against the two transfers you mentioned? Nice theory....once the season is over, coaches can't do anything other than individual work. Do people really not understand the importance of extending the season by a few weeks? If you are a senior laden team without much youth, your argument might hold water, but a young team needs game and practice time.
Great job in taking a pretty positive article and crapping all over it.
It says right in the article "To be fair, winning the NIT is no panacea." and "But the lesson from the women’s NIT title last year isn’t about guaranteed future results. It is about embracing the opportunity. Indiana can accomplish a lot more by continuing to play and win against good competition than they ever could working on individual drills during the offseason." Or did you miss those lines.
Basically it said all that Darkhawk said and IMO it has relevance in regards to the future. Just as it was laid out in the article.
The last 5 years in the NIT:
PSU over Utah
TCU over GT
GW over Valpo
Stanford over Miami
Minnesota over SMU
So....essentially 0 correlation between success in the NIT and follow-up success in the NCAA tourney.
This team doesn't need more practices, it needs attitude and roster adjustments. It's not like we're actually playing Thompson, Anderson, Moore & Forrester----just more practice (cue Allen Iverson here) followed by more bench time for anyone who might actually improve by playing more games.
And......this team just survived against an Arkansas team playing without a legit center and a top NBA draft pick. Where is the improvement from the first time we played them?
No, I saw those lines. I think it's mostly feel-good BS however. I watched both teams a lot, and this year's team was flat-out more talented, and significantly so.
ehh -- you aren't wrong but cool that these young pups are a part of a program that is finally winning games again. they are practicing -- once again -- against starters who finally kinda figured out what in the hell they are doing. def can't draw a straight line from the NIT to next year but we can draw a squiggly line and feel okay about it. lol
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I think the 1979 NIT win set the table for the 1981 Championship. Too bad Mike Woodson got injured and was out of the line up in 1980 for a good portion of the Big Ten schedule. Woodson healthy might have been better for 1980 tourney results. More experience in game situations is always better than less.
On your last point, we are playing without our lottery pick too, so kind of a wash as far as having a talented player out.
Do this for me, think back to the last time that Indiana won any tournament of any kind. NCAA, NIT, Big Ten, Alaska Shootout, Maui Invitational....have we won anything like that in the past 15 years? We may have but I cannot think of one. Playing in the NCAA is always preferable in my opinion, however, the NIT allows for some habits to start to be developed that you cannot get from sitting at home or putting up shots by yourself. I am as disappointed in results this year as anyone but some of you all need to chill the f--- out. There are only so many different ways you can say the same thing. I agree with some of the criticisms we see on this board and I have shared some myself, but at a certain point you move from valid criticism to bitchy little whiner. Not saying you are in that category but some posters have crossed that bridge.
What's done is done, Miller is going to be around for another year whether anyone likes it or not so the choice is to continue being a complaining little bitch, a wait and see type person, or an optimist. I would hope that as the season comes to a close that the whiny bitches find a better outlet for their frustration than yelling at people on a message board.
While the last 5 years aren't much of an indicator, look at the 7 years before that.
4 of 7 NIT winners made the tournament the following year and 3 made a Final 4 within 3 years
Mushroomgod stated an opinion and backed it up with facts. The thread wasn't even debating how good or bad Archie was this year. They were debating if the NIT success indicates future success. You're the one derailing the thread and "yelling" (technically typing mean words
) at people on a message board.
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Going back 15 years, no NIT winner or runner-up has made it to the FF the following year--that includes programs like Michigan x2, Minnesota x2, GT,OSU, N. Carolina, South Carolina x2, Baylor x2, W. Virginia, Clemson.
I don't think making it to the NCAA field is a particularly big deal for any of those programs.
My post indicated "within 3 years" not the following year, in which timeframe OSU, Witchita, and WVU made the final 4
It doesn't indicate instant success, but indicates that it can be a building block for success
Villanova, as defending champ, just lost by the second worst margin ever for a previous champion. But that doesn't mean they are NIT bound next season.
I can only think that going from first year coach and no tourney, to second year coach and NIT tourney is a step in the right direction.
So Matta, Marshall and Thuggins......3 pretty good coaches, wouldn't you say? So......do you think it was the NIT appearance or the coaching & talent that got those teams to the FF 3 years out?
Actually I view the 1979 NIT Championship as a greater success than the first round NCAA Tournament losses such as the Cleveland State upset, which was a disaster. There is a 1979 NIT Championship banner under RMK, there is no NCAA Tournament first round loss banner. That should tell you which was a greater accomplishment, even in the eyes of RMK.
Romeo is IU's leading scorer for the season. Every team in the country would miss their leading scorer.
I'm glad we're in the NIT. I enjoy watching the games. I hope we can win it and add to the '79 banner.
However I don't think just being in the field is a step in the right direction. There's no hiding the fact that it's been a bad year. It may end up being a small face-saving step in the right direction depending on how things go. I think that's all it could be given our uncertainties right now. This tourney isn't clarifying the status of Smith, Thompson, Anderson, Forrester or Moore. I don't know what we learn about the future if we end up winning the thing playing Morgan, Smith, Green, RP, Durham, Davis, McRoberts. If we end up going to NY and don't win the thing, I don't think it will have amounted to a hill of beans. So......I don't see it as a big deal in the long run whatever happens.
That team had Wittman, Kitchell, and Turner as true freshman, and Tolbert as a soph. Along with Woodson as a junior and I. Thomas coming in as a freshman. They were going to be pretty damn good in 1980 & 1981 regardless of what happened in the 1979 NIT.
I don't know if you recall this, but that team was rated #1 preseason in 1980, and for good reason. Woodson & Kitchell both got hurt in 1980 which killed the mojo.
It was big at the time because we beat a good Purdue time. It was also a great, tense game to watch.
Wait. Injuries don't matter. Right ? Or did that change since 1979-80 ? If this year's team was supposed to make the NCAAT in spite of all the injuries, shouldn't that team have done the same ? Especially with much greater talent top to bottom and a Hall of Fame coach.
The double standard on this board is mind-boggling
obviously, making the NCAA is better than the NIT. And I don’t think how we do in the NIT will have that much of an effect next year. Having said that, and extra 5 games and practices is not nothing for a young team.
But winning still matters to me. And I sincerely hope it matters to the players. I don’t understand how an IU fan wouldn’t care about how we do in the NIT. That’s just silly to me.
But winning still matters to me. And I sincerely hope it matters to the players. I don’t understand how an IU fan wouldn’t care about how we do in the NIT. That’s just silly to me.
Edit....As for 1979....I had forgotten a lot of this, but there were only 40 teams in the field. MSU & Iowa were the only two teams that made the field.
Purdue, at 13-5 in the BT and 27-8 overall did not make the field, even though PU was rated #15 and Iowa was #20 (also 13-5 in the BT, but 20-8 overall).
IU actually had a damn good year overall at 10-8 in the BT and 22-12 overall. I say that because we basically had no PG......we had passin' Tommy Baker, who was similar to Josh Newkirk in reliability. Butch Carter was pretty good at SG, and Woodson was a star. Soph Tolbert was very erratic, Kitchell & Turner were not ready to play as freshman. Randy Wittman did play well as a freshman.
So.....any comparisons between that 1979 team and this years bunch are ill-informed.
I didn't say I didn't care.....I said I don't think the long-term effect will be significant whatever happens. We're still going to have the same issues next year.
As for more practices.....I wouldn't say they're nothing, but I would say they're next to nothing. What could really be significant is actually playing time for the Thompson, Forrester, Moore, Anderson.....thing is, Archie wants to win now and salvage what he can out of the season.
Are you sure Tommy Baker was on that team ? I thought he was booted the year before - but maybe I'm wrong. Was Jim Whisman still there?
We are playing to win with the players on this team. It can provide experience for those coming back but that isn't the reason for playing. Archie would be stupid to let Moore play instead of Morgan just to "see what he can do". He watches the players in practice and knows who can play. Players have the opportunity to show their competitiveness in practice.
This is Morgan and McBob's team. It was the senior's team on every team I played on. They have earned the chance to go out with a NIT title. Moore, Forrester, and Anderson will have their chance when they have earned it.
Wiki says he was.......but I also saw Don Cox listed.....I think they both got booted off the team along with Jim Roberson toward the beginning of the year. Wasn't Woodson on "probation" for a while as well?
I hated that that stuff happened. Baker was an amazing leaper and maybe the fastest kid who ever played for IU. Cox was interesting....as I remember, he averaged something like 30+ pts/game as a senoir but was a walk-on at IU.
I don't disagree with all of that, but it's also why I say the results are more or less meaningless other than hanging a banner or not, and just having fun with the thing.
It's just about continuity, establishing habits and approach. None of the players are for a second gonna wish that they'd been in the NIT instead of the NCAA, but here we are and so you pick up the pieces and make the best of it. A mindset that had this team had it during the mid-year swoon, we'd have been in the tourney. So you develop them and play hard the next game.
One of the things I've heard several UM players cite for bringing this year's team together was their overseas trip from the summer. No reason a good NIT run can't help develop better habits and have some positive carryover to next season.
Yeah, I’d like to see more from the bench. But the extra time for Green, Durham, Smith, and Rob is important. If we make the finals, that’s 5 extra games. And games where it’s win or go home.
Also, I want to win now too. IU has a chance to play 3 more games. I want to see those 3 games.
I'm with you man. Winning games in a single elimination tournament format can't hurt, especially for a young and inexperienced roster.
