Need Help following some arguments

[mohepa]

I understand difference in opinions. Some like current program direction and some do not. Get all of that and it is understandable and fun to debate although the same arguments get very old.

What I do not understand is the inconsistancy in some of the "agenda driven" arguments. The biggest issue I see is with the "need a new coach" crowd.

Before the season, the two groups thought 10-11 wins for the optimist, 6-8 wins for the pessimists. The 6-8 wins were based upon no post play, getting 2 wins in first 8 games and limping through the weaker part of our schedule with another 4-6 wins if everything went perfect.

Since the team messed up and won more than 2 games in the first eight, now it is certain that we will be under .500 in the last half of the schedule and maybe lucky to win 2 more games?

If a team has over-performed to expectations in the tougher part of the conference schedule, why is it a fair assumption that they will under-perform in the weaker part of the schedule?

Before I get abused as a Crean apologist, I am just trying to understand the logic of the argument. I am not sure he will take us to "the promised land" but I am enjoying watching the team this year. I am all for debate of differing opinions, I just would like there to be consistency and logic to both sides of the argument.

 

[FtWayneToAtlanta]

If you are looking for consistency and logic, you have...

come to the wrong place my friend.

 

[Tiger__Woods]

The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

But in why our expectations are so low? Why are we, fans, expecting a .500 year coming off a postseason-less disaster?!? Remember when just getting into the NCAA tourney was an EXPECTATION and not a HOPE? After watching 7 years of Crean, I think we all know what we are getting by now....and it doesn't involve any banners.

There's a reason basketball minds criticize Crean. However, I'm still trying to understand why the mindless lemmings look to him as our "Joyce Meyer" (aka our savior)

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

And yet that has no bearing on the original question. I understand your point and no matter how many times you say it, it does not change the argument.

My question was a very specific question about our record the last half of the the conf season.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

I would say based off past performances of Crean teams. His team generally peak early and lose momentum late. Look at the year we were the number 1 seed. We didn't finish the season very strong and went into the NCAA tourney not playing very well...and it showed vs temple and Syracuse.

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

Yet no one stated this BEFORE the season, only now that it is needed to support the original argument that has failed to come true.

It is a easy question, yet so far the only "answers" try to change the question and the direction of the thread. This seems to be another common trait of this board lately. Don't let the facts or question get in the way of a good argument I guess.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

Ou can dissect all this you want but the main issue for all the negative post are people are not happy where the program is.

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

So noted. Not happy about direction of program.

But I still would like an answer to my question. If the "unhappy with the direction crowd" thought we would win 5+ games out of last 8 before the season, why do they not think that now?

It is ok to not be happy about direction, but does it not take away from your argument when you can not stay on topic, answer a simple question, or be consistent in your analysis? Does it not make you look like you are just trying to stir up shit, when your argument changes every week?

If you want to convince others of your point of view, you can use facts or opinions. Facts don't change, opinions do. Facts are more convincing IMO. If the reason you are "smarter" than the CTC is ok crowd is because you understand basketball better, does your performance predicting team's performance and your changing "analysis" not take away from your mystic?

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

So why does pre season polls look different this post season polls? I for one say some of that is that the big ten isn't as good as it was expected to be.

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

So before the season, the big ten was thought to be better, and IU was going to win 5+ games out of last 8. Now the big ten looks weaker and we will only win 2.

Am I the only one that thinks that makes no sense what so ever?

I am not asking about polls or other teams. I am asking only about IU.

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

BTW polls look different because they are opinions being shaped by facts, proving my previous point.

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

I still am not sure what answer you are wanting. Maybe it's lack of faith in our coach or it's past experienced with CTC teams.

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

I dont know much more simple to ask it so I will try again...


If before the conference season started, the "pessimists" thought we would win 5+ games in the last 8, what has CHANGED that makes you now think this will be 2-3 max?

 

[bsmitty08]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

Wo said we will win 2-3 max! I think we will lose remaining games on road and lose at home to PU.

 

[ReadHall84]

You're trying to put lipstick on a pig...

I think many fans who would like to see CTC gone have been a bit surprised to be over .500 in the B1G season right now - I am, I'll admit that. BUT, it doesn't change the fact that IU is still a mediocre program with the possibility of its best players going pro and a weak class coming in. There's no big light at the end of any tunnel. Crean is what he is and he's not getting any better.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

Boy, you brought out all the straw man arguments, didn't ya...

Leading with the "expectations" card, pretending that the somewhat dire (and incorrect) predictions of some posters is now the program expectation. I think getting into the NCAA tournament is an expectation this year, and every year, not just a hope. And so far, it appears they will get in this year. Some of the other negative posters have already decided that also isn't good enough, because we won't go anywhere if we get in. I, for one, will again choose to watch the games.

You follow that up with a conclusion based on nothing but your crystal ball, which probably isn't all that accurate, considering the negative posters predictions about this season. It would be wonderful if the dire prognosticators would at least consider letting the game play out before declaring that all is lost.

Then you pretend that basketball minds only criticize Crean, when there are also plenty of basketball minds who compliment him. Those voices, obviously, don't resonate with you.

Then you pretend that not just one, but multiple people have been calling Tom Crean our savior, when no one has called him that in years. Some of us are just willing to actually watch the games before we declare the program a lost cause.

But my favorite part is how you responded to a post and answered none of the questions posed. It's good stuff. It's like you were just waiting for the opportunity to once again parrot the same straw man talking points that the others repeat ad nauseam.

 

[cheyennemtnman]

+1

It lives on!

 

[Paterfamilias]

Here's how I see it...

First of all (before answering your question), I think that the low bar for the season was ironically set by Crean's biggest detractors. Some were predicting a 6-12 type of season and a total meltdown leading to Creans dismissal. As you say, there were some optimists predicting 10-8 and 9-9. I predicted 11-7 and that was the most optimistic preseason prognostication that I saw and I was reading pretty much every post during the preseason. I wouldn't have predicted 11-7 if I would have known that Davis would get hurt and that Hanner would miss half of the Big Ten season.

So, at this point in time IU's record is better than anyone predicted and it's amplified further by the fact that Hanner lost so much time.

Now to answer your question, Even though we are coming into the part of the schedule that I anticipated might give us a strong finish, I am very doubtful that we will be able to capitalize on it. The wins, though great, have been very hard fought victories while the losses have been decisive. I had the road contests with Rutgers and N-Western penciled in as W's, but I think those look more unlikely than likely now. The home games, other than Michigan, look like toss-ups to me as well.

I think that IF we go 6-2 or 5-3, I would have to give Crean credit for a good coaching job this season, while continuing to rail on his roster management, however i would not be surprised in the least if these last 8 games become nails in his IU coaching coffin.

 

[mohepa]

Re: You're trying to put lipstick on a pig...

Not really arguing that point at all. Just asking a simple question and not receiving any kind of simple answer

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

Sorry I took you literally when you posted....

"Losses at maryland, NW and Rutgers, loss to PU,Iowa and MSU."

Does this not mean we only win 2?

 

[mohepa]

Re: Here's how I see it...

I agree that a melt down would potentially force a change. I appreciate your reasoning on why less victories are possible than previously anticpated and thank you for addressing the original question.

We have different opinions on the effect of the tough fought wins however because I believe it will make them stronger not more apt to lose, but that is why they play the games. One of us will probably be right. lol

 

[Paterfamilias]

I love the fact that they've fought back to get the wins...

that they've gotten and I agree that it as valuable trait that promotes toughness. My point was that since we've had to fight and rally for wins while being rolled in losses may be a sign that we are not as good as our record. If we win most of these games down the stretch, this team will be deserving of a pat on the ass regardless of point differentials.

 

[mohepa]

Re: The issue doesn't lie in "besting" expectations....

Kind of sucks when someone uses your own words. Sorry but saying different things on different days makes you inconsistent and goes to my original point.