What is college offense? Woodson runs an offense that uses the same sets. You can run those sets for multiple types of shots. He just hasn’t had the guys to run all the options. Not this year. He has those options now.
Mullins Announcing 10/23
- Thread starter edub72
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One that's CENTERED on ball and player movement, and spacing...and not ISO situations, and occasional off the ball zoom actions.
This past season, we absolutely did run some more stuff than we did in his first couple seasons...that I would categorize as more "modern". High pick and roll stuff, with backside zoom action is the best example. But we still had Malik and Kelel in the lane, way too much. And we didn't base our entire offense off spacing and movement. It was something that came AFTER X went down with injuries again... If X had been healthy all year, I suspect it would have been a lot of him dribbling, ISO stuff with him, some pick and roll with he and Kelel and/or Malik, and a lot more post ISO stuff. Strongly question whether or not Mack would have emerged even.
I absolutely believe if we had better guards last year we would’ve ran way more zoom. When we do run 2 bigs we will be horns heavy. I’m still not opposed to iso some either but people don’t understand what they are saying. I’ll go further out on a limb and say this team will take more than 20 3s a game. Probably less than 25. Probably make 9-11 too.
I doubt he makes or breaks anything this season. Most likely scenario is a 3-5 conference finish and a S16 loss. Would that change anyone's opinion?
He needs to concentrate on this year, because unless he starts winning like he talked about when he took the job, we'll continue to struggle with recruiting top level kids. You could make the argument that the goal should be to move away from 4 year type recruits entirely and focus on guys who are 1 or 2 year players, with a mix of One and Done or proven guys from the portal. I think we'll struggle to get OaD guys regularly, but time will tell.
I can't agree with you here. We see the same thing each season: an offense with good initial action that then stagnates. If we don't get a good look on the initial action, it turns into a bad forced shot late in clock with guys standing and watching the ball.
Is he suddenly going to run secondary actions because he supposedly has the right people now? I don't think so. I believe he'll run the same stuff, the difference being he has some dudes that can get their own shot on this team, so they'll look better this year than last. But it'll still be the same poor offensive philosophy that relies on athletes getting theirs.
Agreed, but I'd like to add this: A modern college offense should put (at least) some emphasis on the 3-point shot.
Hope that ends up being true. I personally think he should have forced all these things before having obvious talents like we have this year. There are soooooo many ways to get post opportunities for guys like TJD, Malik, and Ware...and maybe even more ways to get the ball in guys hands like X, JHS, Tamar, Trey, Miller, etc... that give them more gap room to work, that are in rhythm for outside shots, etc... than what he's run thus far.
And while we ended up in zoom action last year, it wasn't preceded or followed, by any real movement. Other teams, like UConn maybe, have zoom as a normal part of a movement based offense. We run it, then stop, then it breaks down and then we ISO. Almost like a single focused set play. You mention having 3 options off it...we did, those options are often simultaneous reads, not anything progressive. A guy like Rice will hopefully make the correct read more times than our previous PG's did. But when you're movement based, at the beginning of the possession, and you're creating double gaps, even triple gaps, and creating comfortable catch and shoot opportunities, miraculously your players end up being more capable and efficient.
In short, he didn't need more talent to be better than 100th, or whatever he was, offensive efficiency wise.
You didn’t watch then and I do think he will. He ran some of the same sets as a lot of teams do. He just didn’t have the 2 most important spots covered. That’s on him too though. These plays aren’t new and if you watch they have multiple options off of them. Now am I saying he will run what Murray runs? No.
For example. Purdue ran zoom a lot and when it broke down they ran iso with Edey. They also had guys who can and did shoot. We just didn’t have that option. Do you all seriously think with those speedy guards we got that this will be an also ran? No way. Also I think you did explain it pretty well. We did have multiple options but 2 pretty slow guards and a head case were running it.
We'll see soon enough. I hope you're right, but history tells me he won't do much of it. I'm afraid we're going to continue to see an overreliance on ISO and not much secondary action.
Anecdotally, when he ran a stagger on pin down for Mac, it was a bucket. He would only run one each half, though. And that was the primary action.
I would even be happy to see them run a single-high, horns-type action for Mac or any shooter like the Knicks do for Brunson, which gets him downhill if the 3 isn't there.
By the way, I watch.
Not sure Purdue is a great comp. Nearly everything they ran, as in well above 90%, had the intention or focus of getting the ball to Edey on the block or on a lob. And Edey drew so much attention that Purdue wings had quite a lot more in rhythm/open, 3 point shots than our wings did. Backside Zoom, with Edey in the paint somewhere is a completely different animal than backside zoom with basically any other human being in the paint. Loyer and Jones had A LOT more standstill catch and shoot opportunities as a result, than Mack and Cupps/Galloway did. All 3 of those guys were actually pretty efficient when they had in rhythm, 3 point shots. The problem was we weren't running stuff to get them those opportunities...OR then to create double and triple gaps.
We ran zoom action, at times. We ran high pick and roll (horns and not), more times. We bookended those sorts of things with a lot of dribbling and standing. Purdue's worked because Smith, and others were CONSTANTLY moving.
I can and will agree with that but I’m going to go the other way this year. We have pieces that we really haven’t had.
i hope this proves true as well.
i just think it will take a very dedicated coaching regimen to get there.
Hope you're right! He did run zoom A LOT more last year...and the logical reason was he had Mack as the focus of that zoom action.
With Rice and Carlyle, hopefully its all more well run, and hopefully we see longer stretches of ball and player movement, and better spacing. Creating open perimeter looks, and creating double+ gaps is really the end goal of all these new actions and movements.
My contention is he shouldn't have waited for the players... really anyone worthy of wearing an IU uniform, is capable of making plays in a well run offense that creates...open looks and wider gaps...
But obviously the better the talent, the easier it is to implement things like this. If that's what it will have taken, I'll be glad to see more of it.
I agree with Rice, but I feel people are expecting too much for Carlyle. He will be a solid scoring guard but not this 13+ppg scorer some believe. I hope he is. I see a Robert Johnson caliber guard and thats okay. Better than what the Hoosiers have thrown out there lately.
He’s way quicker and better. He won’t have to be the guy either. this team will have multiple double digit scorers.
Highlights make him look like he has a lot more shake and bake that RJ, and I thought RJ was a really good player. Not every is going to be able to score at their same prior pace, but I'm expecting good things out of Carlyle.
Wasn't he close to that last year? Why couldn't Carlyle improve a little, and pick up a couple points this year? Especially with playing with a PG the caliber of Rice, and having better bigs to play off of?
Carlyle is projected as an NBA draft pick. In ESPNs top 100 which was just released, he's the only one on IU projected in the top 100, at 84. So, he's probably a better prospect than Johnson was. Johnson was more a catch and shoot with some playmaking skills, Carlyle is a combo and has a bigger more versatile skill set.
This discussion about the football program success affecting the basketball program is interesting. I'd bet Scott Dolson sees the work ethic and professionalism of the football staff and gets a real clear picture of why the basketball program has been mediocre.
A complete indictment of Woodson. This is Davis and Crean all over again. No halfway decent coach loses out on a five star in state recruit 90 minutes away. The longer this lazy old fart is in charge, the more the program will continue to wither on the vine. Relying on the portal to field a roster is extremely risky and unsustainable.
Quinn and the boosters drove a stake through the heart of this program. I hope they are happy.
Quinn and the boosters drove a stake through the heart of this program. I hope they are happy.
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We weren't going to fire a legacy coach after 3 years, turn around hire Bruce Pearl and then give him a doubling of what was then the NIL budget. The appropriate steps have been taken to give IU basketball a bright future whether that's Woody or not after this year is completely in Woodys hands. He has a mandate that came with the resources and up until now he's done and said all of the right things. He crushed the portal, he's landed an in-state upper echelon recruit. Losing Mullins will hurt optics, but I'm not convinced we're losing him. More than just the coaching staff is heavily involved with his recruitment. Now if Woody can't deliver with an impressive season this year having been given every possible tool to do so, then the next staff will have an elite NIL budget and a the ability to hit the ground running.
In what scenario does he break his legacy? I assume you mean if he does poorly he will be fired. I just don’t see how that would be possible. Heck, Cav, couldn’t you coach this team to 6-7 seed?
I hope we smash through ceilings this year. My mind has many cobwebs, and I’d have to really dig in my brain to find a year where we surprised to the upside.
From a program standpoint, based on what you and others have said, it wouldn’t be good at all to end up with a season where we lay an egg. It would just lead to folks questioning him even more….with him still coming back next year. In other words, IMHO, if he doesn’t deliver he still comes back. This team will easily make the tournament, so I don’t think his job has any risk for next season. But, it’s a bad look if we have a coach without an extension,
This year is big for the program, but it will have no impact on who our coach is next year. IMHO
Sounds right -- very good season or mediocre season, it sure looks like Mike is staying. And if that's true, he'll likely get extended because recruiting '25 and especially '26 is very difficult with a contract expiring in '26.
Won't help with recruiting at all. Everyone knows he's ancient and is just one more bad season from being canned. It's absolutely mind boggling how poorly our administration has handled the basketball program the past 25 years. I can't think of another top 50 program that would've given Woodson a look when we hired him.
My post is only about what I think will happen given there are two years left on his deal after this season.
As for the hire and the results, disappointing but that’s a separate topic.
What’s really frustrating is that we have been down for 25 years, and no B10 team has won a title during that time.
Is the PU program of the last 2 seasons the best that the conference can do over those 25 yrs.? As IU fans we make fun of them for only making it to the title game, but who has been better than that?
They have taken advantage of a league that has been weaker than it should be at the top. Why couldn’t we?
The one constant I can see over 25 years is how political bball is at IU. We’ve had Presidents, Trustees, a search committee, and donors all involved with bball coach hires/fires, and these people are not good at hiring/firing coaches or building a bball program. It should be the AD’s job, and as a complicating factor we’ve also had some inexperienced ADs.
Any organization with this level of politics and meddling is probably going to produce poor results. And that’s what we have seen. Hopefully we figure it out someday.
let's let this season unfold before we start digging any graves. There is plenty of store-bought talent on this team to post a 25 win season and second weekend appearance in the tourney. Sink or swim time for CMW.
unpleasant truth is that young ballers in the state just don't hold the same reverence to the IU program that many of us older guys do. RMK was walked to the Assembly Hall parking lot by security before any of these kids were even born. To them, those banners do look a little dusty.
unpleasant truth is that young ballers in the state just don't hold the same reverence to the IU program that many of us older guys do. RMK was walked to the Assembly Hall parking lot by security before any of these kids were even born. To them, those banners do look a little dusty.
