More winning

[crazed_hoosier2]

They also made a sensible effort to downsize government, and it was successful.

One other comment. I get this, but it also kinda misses the forest for the trees.

The size of the government payroll -- while I think it probably could and should be whittled down -- hasn't ever been our top fiscal problem. I forget the precise fiscal impact of the early 90s paring, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't too far off from a rounding error on the overall picture. And the same holds true now.

The elephant in the room that everybody -- very much including Donald Trump (though he might be slightly better than most in DC on it) -- seems intent on ignoring is the growth in the cost of entitlement benefits. To his credit, Musk has pointed this out. And he's absolutely right about it. But it's not a coincidence that he's not been elected to anything -- or even subject to Senate confirmation.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

2) The Dot-Com boom led to several years of extraordinary tax revenues -- this amounted to a couple more % of GDP that lasted about 4 years. The highest year on record was 2000, with tax revs of 19.6% GDP. That number typically vacillates between 15-17%. Naturally, revenues reverted back to the mean once the boom went bust.

I realized I probably should've shown my work on this claim.

Here's what tax revenues did between 1990-2002. We had a record of 4 consecutive years above 18% GDP prior to the dot-com bubble bursting.

 

[snarlcakes]

It matters because the promises made in the run up to the election were that he would cut 2 trillion, and he kept that promise until right before the inauguration where he says "still looking at 2 trillion but likely 1 trillion this year". In February he said “If you add competence and caring, you’ll cut the budget deficit in half". He said that right in the oval office.

Now he's at 150 bil (according to him), but the numbers still don't add up and are riddled with errors. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/13/us/politics/doge-contracts-savings.html

That doesn't mean he cut out zero.

There is another issue, namely, what he cut out:

• Major downsizing agency responsible for ensuring air travel is safe, in the middle of a spate of deadly airline crashes, then trying to rehire fired ATC for money that what they were paid before;

I disagree with your post, but was curious if you have data supporting this claim? The only data I have seen is the chart below and March ended lower as well at 96.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

OK. But you didn't address my final point.

Should our ire be directed at DOGE -- a pro-forma group that didn't even exist until a few months ago -- or should it be directed at our elected officials who not only got us into this mess, not only have steadfastly refused to do anything to clean up their mess, but also insist on continuing to make the mess even worse?

I appreciate your gripes about DOGE. But all life experience should tell us that if untenable matters aren't dealt with responsibly by the people charged with dealing with them, then eventually they're probably going to be dealt with irresponsibly.

Same goes for immigration and Donald Trump's ascendancy. It was inexcusably foolish for the political establishment -- R and D alike -- to think they could just look the other way at that issue, while public sentiment was moving from a simmer to a boil, without some kind of unintended consequence. And now governments all over the world are going so far as to invalidate elections and imprison victorious candidates in order to fend off the populist revolt.

Of course I’m not happy with Congress or the President’s that proposed budgets that only increase deficits and debt if enacted.

I want to decrease deficits and debt for sure. I bet DOGE won’t amount to any decrease at all in the end and I also predict DOGE will be remembered as a failed effort that resulted in real harm to people and government. If they came up with five plans to downsize government, including what DOGE is doing (without any plan at all), DOGE would rank as the dumbest and least effective. It’s really a cluster **** I’m my humble opinion.

Check out the DOGE website. It’s also ridiculous and extremely difficult to find accurate and useful information.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I realized I probably should've shown my work on this claim.

Here's what tax revenues did between 1990-2002. We had a record of 4 consecutive years above 18% GDP prior to the dot-com bubble bursting.

not to get off topic but it is funny how things ancillary to gov impact the perception of same and the success/failure of a presidency etc. people thrived, so many i know, from the dot com boom. made their careers. then housing came along. flipping. construction. sustained my pop for many years. obviously cratered thereafter.

incidentally i think of my own business. the biggest obstacle and/or things impacting our success or lack thereof has been gov. covid lockdowns. threat of tariffs. left alone we're golden. business. competition. markets. have had zero impact. it has all been gov interference in one form or another

 

[mcmurtry66]

Of course I’m not happy with Congress or the President’s that proposed budgets that only increase deficits and debt if enacted.

I want to decrease deficits and debt for sure. I bet DOGE won’t amount to any decrease at all in the end and I also predict DOGE will be remembered as a failed effort that resulted in real harm to people and government. If they came up with five plans to downsize government, including what DOGE is doing (without any plan at all), DOGE would rank as the dumbest and least effective. It’s really a cluster **** I’m my humble opinion.

Check out the DOGE website. It’s also ridiculous and extremely difficult to find accurate and useful information.

you just continue to miss his point. doge is the ONLY thing broaching the subject. attempting to do it. and they are who you are all fired up about. what a joke. not congress the last x number of years. the biden administration. harris. trump before.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

If they came up with five plans to downsize government, including what DOGE is doing (without any plan at all), DOGE would rank as the dumbest and least effective. It’s really a cluster **** I’m my humble opinion.

I agree!

But, guess what the critical difference between it and the other 4 is?

It's the only one of them that has been put into action. Wanna swap it out for a better plan? I'll be 100% behind you when one of those better plans gets put into motion. Until such time, this is the only one we've got that is anything but talk. As such, I'll support it.

If nothing else, maybe it can serve as a fire lit under the right asses inside the Beltway. They all hate it -- so....how about they replace it?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

it has all been gov interference in one form or another

This ought to come as no surprise.

But, hey, they mean well.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

you just continue to miss his point. doge is the ONLY thing broaching the subject. attempting to do it. and they are who you are all fired up about. what a joke. not congress the last x number of years. the biden administration. harris. trump before.

Exactly...I see all the bitching and moaning, from DC and elsewhere. And it's not as if they don't make a fair point.

What I don't see -- and I'm not surprised that I don't -- is any sort of effort from any of the bitchers or moaners to enact a better, more responsible plan to deal with our problem. And it's not as if the problem became a problem on January 20th.

I'll be entirely supportive of bringing an end to DOGE or any other unilateral executive rescission activity -- but only if it's replaced with something better. Until such time, they can consider my ears to be as deaf as theirs have been as so many of us have been screaming for them to do their jobs and clean up their mess.

 

[mcmurtry66]

This ought to come as no surprise.

But, hey, they mean well.

it's all interesting. getting back to these cuts and agencies i appreciate what you wrote long ago about across the boards cuts bc everything is important to somebody.

just an example. my main business has done a fair amount with NIST. one of our partners is a former nist employee. it's a federal agency. astm is another we work with and they're a nonprofit. they don't do exactly the same shit but overlap on a lot of things. do we need nist? maybe we do. but maybe there are universities that can pick up the slack, private companies, other nonprofits, other labs etc. our company likes nist. we certainly could do without it as there are so many outfits that we can utilize to do the same thing. and that's the case with so much of gov and gov grants

does it equate to entitlements and dod etc. of course not. but so what. every penny....

 

[Bowlmania]

you just continue to miss his point. doge is the ONLY thing broaching the subject. attempting to do it. and they are who you are all fired up about. what a joke. not congress the last x number of years. the biden administration. harris. trump before.

Their “attempt” has caused incalculable damage.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Their “attempt” has caused incalculable damage.

no "attempt" has caused calculable damage

 

[hoosboot]

OK. But you didn't address my final point.

Should our ire be directed at DOGE -- a pro-forma group that didn't even exist until a few months ago -- or should it be directed at our elected officials who not only got us into this mess, not only have steadfastly refused to do anything to clean up their mess, but also insist on continuing to make the mess even worse?

I appreciate your gripes about DOGE. But all life experience should tell us that if untenable matters aren't dealt with responsibly by the people charged with dealing with them, then eventually they're probably going to be dealt with irresponsibly.

Same goes for immigration and Donald Trump's ascendancy. It was inexcusably foolish for the political establishment -- R and D alike -- to think they could just look the other way at that issue, while public sentiment was moving from a simmer to a boil, without some kind of unintended consequence. And now governments all over the world are going so far as to invalidate elections and imprison victorious candidates in order to fend off the populist revolt.

Why is it an either/or discussion? Don't you have enough ire to direct at both congressional officials and DOGE?

If only there had been some Republican administrations since Obama that could push to enact the Simpson-Bowles recommendations that we all agree would be good steps. We'd definitely have some ire for them if they had ever been in power, especially if they had control of all three branches of the federal government and, thus, the power to make it happen.

 

[snarlcakes]

you just continue to miss his point. doge is the ONLY thing broaching the subject. attempting to do it. and they are who you are all fired up about. what a joke. not congress the last x number of years. the biden administration. harris. trump before.

Out of one side of their mouth they clown on DOGE for cutting basically nothing and out of the other side DOGE is doing unreal damage. Somehow the wealthiest and most innovative human on the planet managed to do nothing and destroying everything🤣🤣🤣

 

[mcmurtry66]

Why is it an either/or discussion? Don't you have enough ire to direct at both congressional officials and DOGE?

If only there had been some Republican administrations since Obama that could push to enact the Simpson-Bowles recommendations that we all agree would be good steps. We'd definitely have some ire for them if they had ever been in power, especially if they had control of all three branches of the federal government and, thus, the power to make it happen.

Republicans have been just as culpable leading up to now

 

[hoosboot]

Republicans have been just as culpable leading up to now

And instead of being good managers, we're enabling our bad employees (Congress) and bringing in a moron high-paid consultant who doesn't have the time, experience, or work ethic to understand our business (the Federal Government) to make recommendations.

The problem is us.

 

[mcmurtry66]

And instead of being good managers, we're enabling our bad employees (Congress) and bringing in a moron high-paid consultant who doesn't have the time, experience, or work ethic to understand our business (the Federal Government) to make recommendations.

The problem is us.

As crazed said I’ll take it at this point

The problem is sort of us but it’s a bit more complicated. Inertia. Institutions that have grown too powerful/influential. On and on

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Why is it an either/or discussion? Don't you have enough ire to direct at both congressional officials and DOGE?

Not really, no. I'm pretty fed up with inaction -- so I find action to be quite refreshing...even if it doesn't result in much savings.

If only there had been some Republican administrations since Obama that could push to enact the Simpson-Bowles recommendations that we all agree would be good steps.

Oh, the inaction is a bipartisan problem. In fact, the reason we have the inaction is because politicians see everything first, if not exclusively, in terms of their political ramifications. And they'd all love nothing more than for the other guy to be the one to "step into the boat" (to use Obama's analogy).

Anyway, I will give some credit to the Bush Administration for at least making an effort to address Social Security. But it just stands as a prime example of the pratfalls of doing it. The Democrats weren't the least bit interested in helping, they were interested in capitalizing on it.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

you just continue to miss his point. doge is the ONLY thing broaching the subject. attempting to do it. and they are who you are all fired up about. what a joke. not congress the last x number of years. the biden administration. harris. trump before.

I got that, but I seriously think DOGE is mostly a joke and is doing real harm that will outweigh any good it might achieve.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I got that, but I seriously think DOGE is mostly a joke and is doing real harm that will outweigh any good it might achieve.

shining a light, opening the dialogue, is far from a joke. next election we'll have dems with a ten trillion dollar climate bill and lifetime benes with woodrow wilson agency expansion

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Exactly...I see all the bitching and moaning, from DC and elsewhere. And it's not as if they don't make a fair point.

What I don't see -- and I'm not surprised that I don't -- is any sort of effort from any of the bitchers or moaners to enact a better, more responsible plan to deal with our problem. And it's not as if the problem became a problem on January 20th.

I'll be entirely supportive of bringing an end to DOGE or any other unilateral executive rescission activity -- but only if it's replaced with something better. Until such time, they can consider my ears to be as deaf as theirs have been as so many of us have been screaming for them to do their jobs and clean up their mess.

The GAO does good work investigating and reporting fraud, waste and abuse. A better plan would be to force the Executive branch to review every report and take appropriate action.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

The GAO does good work investigating and reporting fraud, waste and abuse and finding it. A better plan would be to force the Executive branch to review every report and take appropriate action.

What are they waiting for?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

What are they waiting for?

Who?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Who?

Whoever has the responsibility of forcing the executive branch to review and act upon GAO reports.

The two of us sitting here musing about it isn’t going to get anything accomplished.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The GAO does good work investigating and reporting fraud, waste and abuse. A better plan would be to force the Executive branch to review every report and take appropriate action.

meaningless work if nothing is done. the number one thing you see with these self made billionaires is action. do something. don't sit and plan and twiddle your thumbs and delay be proactive and active. do something. now.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Whoever has the responsibility of forcing the executive branch to review and act upon GAO reports.

The two of us sitting here musing about it isn’t going to get anything accomplished.

You can go to the GAO website and see their reports, recommendations and the action that was or wasn’t taken in their recommendations. You can also see that some recommendations were essentially ignored. I’d guess Congress could give the GAO more teeth by requiring that those investigated respond to every report and take action or explain why the aren’t.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

meaningless work if nothing is done. the number one thing you see with these self made billionaires is action. do something. don't sit and plan and twiddle your thumbs and delay be proactive and active. do something. now.

A lot is done. Not always though.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

the number one thing you see with these self made billionaires is action. do something. don't sit and plan and twiddle your thumbs and delay be proactive and active. do something. now.

This is so true.

There are a lot of things I can’t stand about Donald Trump. And there are a lot of things he does that are bad.

But he is most certainly a classic “doer” - no matter how much time he spends on the golf course.

As for Musk, Nvidia’s CEO said he’s never known anybody with a better signal-to-noise ratio than Elon.

 

[mcmurtry66]

This is so true.

There are a lot of things I can’t stand about Donald Trump. And there are a lot of things he does that are bad.

But he is most certainly a classic “doer” - no matter how much time he spends on the golf course.

As for Musk, Nvidia’s CEO said he’s never known anybody with a better signal-to-noise ratio than Elon.

and it's what we hate most about working with our guys at the universities. my company and my partners have NOT made it. nowhere close. and we have competitors racing to do the same things we're doing. the guys at the university. zero mph. zero sense of urgency. we should look at applying for this grant. we should look into additional investors. NO!!!! just get it done and let's sell. sell sell sell. fast!

gov, universities, non profits, entirely different mindset

 

[IUCrazy2]

Whoever has the responsibility of forcing the executive branch to review and act upon GAO reports.

The two of us sitting here musing about it isn’t going to get anything accomplished.

Ultimately we all do. How often do people vote against their sitting representative when they don't act? Things don't get done because nobody wants to give up their benefits and/or wants to see an increase in taxes. It is your fault. It is my fault. It is everyone's fault.

I also do not buy the whole, "Well I prefer something to nothing" argument. I can get your alcoholic relative to stop drinking by shooting them in the head. Alcohol consumption reduced to zero, problem solved. Please forward my check for a job well done.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Ultimately we all do. How often do people vote against their sitting representative when they don't act? Things don't get done because nobody wants to give up their benefits and/or wants to see an increase in taxes. It is your fault. It is my fault. It is everyone's fault.

I also do not buy the whole, "Well I prefer something to nothing" argument. I can get your alcoholic relative to stop drinking by shooting them in the head. Alcohol consumption reduced to zero, problem solved. Please forward my check for a job well done.

So you’re knocking off more than one relative?

 

[IUCrazy2]

So you’re knocking off more than one relative?

So right now I can promise 20 but I will probably have to revise that to 1.5 when people start to realize that actually delivering that is kind of hard and problematic to boot.

ETA: And oh by the way, my partners will also be offering the remaining folks in your family a voucher for a free drink at my bar too.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Ultimately we all do. How often do people vote against their sitting representative when they don't act? Things don't get done because nobody wants to give up their benefits and/or wants to see an increase in taxes. It is your fault. It is my fault. It is everyone's fault.

I also do not buy the whole, "Well I prefer something to nothing" argument. I can get your alcoholic relative to stop drinking by shooting them in the head. Alcohol consumption reduced to zero, problem solved. Please forward my check for a job well done.

it's our fault that we don't change the system but with the party structure as it is we're very limited with respect to our choices. this is complicated by how polar we are as a people. we want very different things

 

[IUCrazy2]

it's our fault that we don't change the system but with the party structure as it is we're very limited with respect to our choices. this is complicated but how polar we are as a people. we want very different things

It is complicated, which is why the approach was awful. Elon should have never had any part in any of this.

 

[hoot1]

meaningless work if nothing is done. the number one thing you see with these self made billionaires is action. do something. don't sit and plan and twiddle your thumbs and delay be proactive and active. do something. now.

MM66, just hope you agree as yours truly is about to wade in waters which are probably way over his head.

For good or for bad, our Constitution framed by the Founders with three branches complete with checks and balances doesn't give even billionaires functioning as the President and "Copresident" (whatever Musk is) a free
reign as they have been accustomed to in their previous business endeavors.

Got a feeling the courts will be busy as the Constitution faces all kinds of challenges. So the rapid execution of DOGE could be slowed by the courts.

As to the GAO and its Comptroller General, it could function very much as DOGE is doing, but it is a product of a time when Congress was a more congenial branch prone to reaching consensus. On top of that, Trump has his DOGE which fits his firm belief in the Unitary Executive Theory.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It is complicated, which is why the approach was awful. Elon should have never had any part in any of this.

as craze and i have belabored it's the only approach. there's been no other. so while i'm sympathetic to people bitching about it like crazed i'm prone to turn a deaf ear. sometimes a drunk needs to go to jail to wake up

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I also do not buy the whole, "Well I prefer something to nothing" argument.

Well, to each their own.

But, for me, you gotta get the ball rolling somehow. And the normies have had decades of opportunity to do it.

But they never did, and probably never would have. Maybe this will be the catalyst to get them to do it.

 

[hoot1]

Well, to each their own.

But, for me, you gotta get the ball rolling somehow. And the normies have had decades of opportunity to do it.

But they never did, and probably never would have. Maybe this will be the catalyst to get them to do it.

Craze, like the term "normies" which are the past presidents and pols from both parties which MAGAs reject as being failures.

Have to admit, to this old fool the normiees are like a pair of over worn slippers which still feel good at the end of the day.

 

[UncleMark]

Well, to each their his own.

In solidarity with @Aloha Hoosier.

 

[IUCrazy2]

as craze and i have belabored it's the only approach. there's been no other. so while i'm sympathetic to people bitching about it like crazed i'm prone to turn a deaf ear. sometimes a drunk needs to go to jail to wake up

Despite DOGE, Trump's agenda calls for adding trillions of dollars to U.S. debt

Budget experts say Trump’s tax and spending priorities would increase red ink, even as he boasts of balancing the budget. “I don’t think their rhetoric matches reality," one says.

www.nbcnews.com

You are being sold a bill of goods to justify the real reason.

“Put Them in Trauma”: Inside a Key MAGA Leader’s Plans for a New Trump Agenda

Private videos reveal Trump adviser Russ Vought’s “shadow” plans for using the military on protesters, defunding the EPA and villainizing civil servants.

www.propublica.org

Elon was theater.