JFK files tomorrow
- Thread starter dbmhoosier
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The most likely culprit has never been CIA, rather their Israeli counterpart Mossad, with CIA foreknowledge.
As it happens, Mossad is also the chief suspect behind Epstein.
What do you think of the SS agent who said as he neared death that he had removed a nearly pristine bullet from the stretcher as they entered the hospital? That was odd as hell. I've heard it said that if true, it would seem to prove there was a second shooter (although I'm confused about the timing, the "magic bullet" was always said to be critical to showing LHO was the sole shooter).
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Posner addresses that. The SS Agent never mentioned this find in his statements immediately after the assassination or in his longer written statement for the congressional investigation or in all the years after and in his old age his memory of the day improved, and he suddenly remembered this magic pristine bullet. That all is odd as hell, isn't it? Not credible.
Do these assertions come from your extensive investigations and research of all the evidence of the JFK assassination and Epstein's suicide? LOL!
Maybe it exists. Maybe it doesn't. The problem is that Paul Landis (the SSA who claims to have found the bullet), has told a couple of different stories, and the one he told in a sworn statement right after the assassination and never identified another bullet. I think given his stature, we should take Landis 60 years later recollection seriously. He never came forward with the information. Whether he saw the bullet and picked it up and put it in his pocket and left it on a gurney, is a true fact or it is not. We will never know.
I believe that to be true. I could be convinced that there was a second gunmen if we had better evidence--not wedded to any opinion.
Yes, it is very odd. On the other hand, how many good people do you know who are on their way out pick that time for such a huge lie? I don't recall what he said when asked why he had not spoken up at the time.
If you don't mind, can you explain why the "magic bullet" is crucial to the WR's conclusion? Are you a believer in that theory? Is there another explanation that does not involve the magic bullet?
I have not studied it as you have, and what I've heard or read I've mostly forgotten. Until the last few years I had little doubt LHO acted alone. I am now more prone to believe it was Oswald plus a second shooter, probably from the mob, with Oswald's knowledge....but in any event, I've never bought that Oswald was not involved, although I feel like he might have been duped in some way.
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I believe I heard Posner say that Landis was writing a book to add to the 100s of different conspiracy theory books that have already been written. There's money in the JFK assassination. Maybe he wanted to add some more wealth to whatever he's leaving to his heirs after death. I don't know. I know that I have all sorts of doubt about a bullet suddenly remembered by someone decades after the fact. A SS agent that found a bullet as he said would have reported it at the time. Why wouldn't he?
Just so we're all on the same page on Agent Landis' claim:
Landis' recent claim is that he found the famous bullet (CE 399) lodged in the seat behind where Kennedy was sitting, he took it with him to Parkland and placed it on Kennedy's gurney.
That's the sum of the new claim.
The bullet was found by a hospital employee on one of the two gurneys (he wasn't certain if it was Kennedy's or Connally's...but the WC concluded it was Connally's...which they explain in the below snippet). He gave the bullet to his boss, who then turned it over to federal agents.
So the pristine bullet in question has always been part of the story. It's supposedly the so-called "magic bullet" - the one that the WC concluded went through both Kennedy and Connally (twice, once through his back and once through his wrist) and terminated in Connally's thigh.
So Landis' claim doesn't invent some new bullet. It just offers his explanation of how CE 399 found its way onto the gurney -- and, contra the WC, he claims it was Kennedy's gurney not Connally's.
The other bullet, that was the fatal shot to JFK's head, was fragmented. And then, of course, there was one that missed and hit the street.
PS....when we're done with this we might want to take another look at the RFK assassination. Damn. I heard RFK Jr. speak on it and it's worth a second look. Another one that seemed to be correct at the time.
Yes.
There are theories that Oswald did fire shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD. There are also theories that he didn't.
The latter generally emanate from timeline constraints -- and the fact that the Dallas police officer (Baker) who claimed to have interacted with Oswald on the 2nd floor approximately 2 minutes after the shots were fired stated that Oswald was not out of breath, wasn't acting nervous or rattled, etc.
The other timeline claims come from other employees who claimed to have seen Oswald here or there in the building around that time.
However, I have to say that I'm leery of claims predicated upon precise moments of time. Wall clocks and watches weren't uncommon in those days, of course. But pretty much none of them were synchronized like our phones, computer clocks, etc. are today. Add in all the chaos of the president having been shot and it seems hard to put too much weight on somebody saying "At approximately 12:33 I...."
Just so we're all on the same page on Agent Landis' claim:
Landis' recent claim is that he found the famous bullet (CE 399) lodged in the seat behind where Kennedy was sitting, he took it with him to Parkland and placed it on Kennedy's gurney.
That's the sum of the new claim.
The bullet was found by a hospital employee on one of the two gurneys (he wasn't certain if it was Kennedy's or Connally's...but the WC concluded it was Connally's...which they explain in the below snippet). He gave the bullet to his boss, who then turned it over to federal agents.
So the pristine bullet in question has always been part of the story. It's supposedly the so-called "magic bullet" - the one that the WC concluded went through both Kennedy and Connally (twice, once through his back and once through his wrist) and terminated in Connally's thigh.
So Landis' claim doesn't invent some new bullet. It just offers his explanation of how CE 399 found its way onto the gurney -- and, contra the WC, he claims it was Kennedy's gurney not Connally's.
The other bullet, that was the fatal shot to JFK's head, was fragmented. And then, of course, there was one that missed and hit the street.
Wow...thanks.
I'd like to see a 3rd investigation, rigorously non-political with disinterested participants, and able to take whatever time is required. I wouldn't even necessarily want a definitive conclusion. I feel that no one trusts the WR, and that the 2nd investigation was politicized and incomplete.
Here's the Warren Reports conclusion on the 3 shots:Just so we're all on the same page on Agent Landis' claim:
Landis' recent claim is that he found the famous bullet (CE 399) lodged in the seat behind where Kennedy was sitting, he took it with him to Parkland and placed it on Kennedy's gurney.
That's the sum of the new claim.
The bullet was found by a hospital employee on one of the two gurneys (he wasn't certain if it was Kennedy's or Connally's...but the WC concluded it was Connally's...which they explain in the below snippet). He gave the bullet to his boss, who then turned it over to federal agents.
So the pristine bullet in question has always been part of the story. It's supposedly the so-called "magic bullet" - the one that the WC concluded went through both Kennedy and Connally (twice, once through his back and once through his wrist) and terminated in Connally's thigh.
So Landis' claim doesn't invent some new bullet. It just offers his explanation of how CE 399 found its way onto the gurney -- and, contra the WC, he claims it was Kennedy's gurney not Connally's.
The other bullet, that was the fatal shot to JFK's head, was fragmented. And then, of course, there was one that missed and hit the street.
"Based on the evidence analyzed in this chapter, the Commission has concluded that the shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the sixth-floor window at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Two bullets probably caused all the wounds suffered by President Kennedy and Governor Connally. Since the preponderance of the evidence indicated that three shots were fired, the Commission concluded that one shot probably missed the Presidential limousine and its occupants, and that the three shots were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds."
Warren Commission Report Chapter 3
Chapter 3: The Shots from the Texas School Book Depository Introduction The Witnesses Near the Depository On the Fifth Floor At the Triple Underpass The Presidential Automobile Expert Examination of Rifle, Cartridge Cases, and Bullet Fragments Discovery of Cartridge cases and Rifle Discovery of...
www.archives.gov
I never looked to see if anyone did any ballistic testing of the rifle and bullets, but I assume they did--I just don't recall.
I thought it was a new bullet that didn't exist in the evidence, but my attention wasn't 100 percent on the discussion, and I may have been mistaken. I was working some on my part-time project. The guy's name was Landis. I just went to Posner's website to see if this is specifically addressed there, and it is. The details:Just so we're all on the same page on Agent Landis' claim:
Landis' recent claim is that he found the famous bullet (CE 399) lodged in the seat behind where Kennedy was sitting, he took it with him to Parkland and placed it on Kennedy's gurney.
That's the sum of the new claim.
The bullet was found by a hospital employee on one of the two gurneys (he wasn't certain if it was Kennedy's or Connally's...but the WC concluded it was Connally's...which they explain in the below snippet). He gave the bullet to his boss, who then turned it over to federal agents.
So the pristine bullet in question has always been part of the story. It's supposedly the so-called "magic bullet" - the one that the WC concluded went through both Kennedy and Connally (twice, once through his back and once through his wrist) and terminated in Connally's thigh.
So Landis' claim doesn't invent some new bullet. It just offers his explanation of how CE 399 found its way onto the gurney -- and, contra the WC, he claims it was Kennedy's gurney not Connally's.
The other bullet, that was the fatal shot to JFK's head, was fragmented. And then, of course, there was one that missed and hit the street.
An Explosive JFK Assassination Tale From A Retired Secret Service Agent
My First Impression of Separating Fact From Fiction
www.justthefacts.media
The House did a pretty decent job.
If you did one now, it would still be slanted. Nature of the beast. It would be impossible to sort through without living witnesses.
You can get the house report here: https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/report/html/HSCA_Report_0005b.htm
Here's the Warren Reports conclusion on the 3 shots:
"Based on the evidence analyzed in this chapter, the Commission has concluded that the shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the sixth-floor window at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Two bullets probably caused all the wounds suffered by President Kennedy and Governor Connally. Since the preponderance of the evidence indicated that three shots were fired, the Commission concluded that one shot probably missed the Presidential limousine and its occupants, and that the three shots were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds."
Warren Commission Report Chapter 3
Chapter 3: The Shots from the Texas School Book Depository Introduction The Witnesses Near the Depository On the Fifth Floor At the Triple Underpass The Presidential Automobile Expert Examination of Rifle, Cartridge Cases, and Bullet Fragments Discovery of Cartridge cases and Rifle Discovery of...
I never looked to see if anyone did any ballistic testing of the rifle and bullets, but I assume they did--I just don't recall.
I don't recall the exact numbers. But something like 90% of the people present at Dealey Plaza who were interviewed about the number of shots fired said they heard 3 shots. I believe some of those said "at least 3." A few claimed 4 and a few claimed 2.
However, it seems possible that, if there were two shooters, the both could've fired at the same time and sounded only like a single shot.
Thanks......I'm not too interested in the theories that Oswald was a complete patsy or somehow framed....that just does not ring true or align with his actions after the fact. Or all his crazy activities before the fact. Or the difficulties involved in framing him. But I am coming around to the argument of mob involvement and a second shooter on the grassy knoll. I've seen some internet videos that were interesting along those lines. But most of those involve Oswald being framed. No one's come up with a good theory as to how/why the mob would have been involved with Oswald. That's what I'm looking for but not seeing.
I do feel like the CIA and FBI coverup is all after the fact and that neither agency knew at the time what had happened, but did know they had screwed things up big time. But......how do you explain Oswald's time in Mexico City?
As I mentioned the other day--Lem Johns told my dad he was convinced there was a second shooter based upon what he heard --number of shots and locations. As with the other agent, we should take the assertion seriously, but with a dose of skepticism given that it came so long after the event. Lem testified to the WC--it was only 5- or 6 pages long, but it is restricted and can't access it.
I thought it was a new bullet that didn't exist in the evidence, but my attention wasn't 100 percent on the discussion, and I may have been mistaken. I was working some on my part-time project. The guy's name was Landis. I just went to Posner's website to see if this is specifically addressed there, and it is. The details:
An Explosive JFK Assassination Tale From A Retired Secret Service Agent
My First Impression of Separating Fact From Fiction
Well, clearly, there's nothing officially declared about whether the bullet Landis describes is or isn't CE 399. James Robenalt (a lawyer and author of several history books, who worked with Landis on this) says that he can only assume that it was.
What we do know is that there was only one bullet found on a gurney at the hospital. The WC deduced it was found on Connally's gurney, but the employee who found it was uncertain. I don't know how much it really matters. But the WC's explanation is that it became dislodged from Connally's leg.
Honestly, what I find most interesting about Landis' claim isn't so much that he's the one who placed it on the gurney. We know it got there somehow. And, if it is CE 399 (how couldn't it be?), then it does at least place that bullet at Dealey Plaza.
What I find interesting about it is where he claimed to have found it. He claimed to have found it on the seat behind where JFK was sitting. And this is supposedly a bullet that went in JFK's back, out the bottom of his throat, in Connally's back, out his chest, clear through his wrist, into his leg.
And it's not only in pristine condition but (allegedly) found in the seat behind POTUS?
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Would his involvement necessarily have to have been initiated by the mafia?
Most of the theories cite Oswald's connections with the CIA/FBI adjacent people: David Ferrie, George de Morenschidlt, Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, etc.
To add to that last part........it seems to me to be possible that the CIA or FBI considered Oswald to be their agent, and he double-crossed them. The reason I say that is that is because his pro-Cuban sentiment & activities have always appeared to have been quite genuine. But on the other hand, the Russians did not trust Qswald when he was in Moscow and his time in Mexico City and his activities there were very odd. So he may have been playing some sort of double-agent game.
Yes....but I believe Oswald really was a Commie....I know the CIA, the FBI, the Cuban government, the anti-Castro Cubans all wanted JFK dead, so there are lots of suspects. I recall Oswald met with people in the Cuban embassy in Mexico City in the time leading up to the assassination....that might have been related to his anti-US government activities in New Orleans. (a city where the mob was also active). I guess I see it more likely that Oswald was somehow involved/controlled by either side of the Cuban divide and/or the mob. I'm more inclined to see Oswald as a double agent who wanted JFK dead for ideological reasons.
There are some things that would suggest that Oswald was impersonated on several occasions -- including in Mexico City.
If, in fact, he was being set up as a patsy, this would not be very surprising.
I remember reading about that.........also, remember the picture of Oswald standing on a sunny day with the rifle that was said to have been faked? It did seem like an unusual thing to take a picture of..................The whole damn thing is pretty crazy.
Here's another thing no one's brought up.......wasn't the conclusion of the 2nd investigation largely dependent on an analysis of a sound recording which was concluded that 4 shots were fired instead of 3? Followed by push-back as to the accuracy of the analysis?
The HCSA (house select committee on assassinations) concluded that Kennedy was only struck twice, by two of three bullets fired by Oswald from the Book Depository Building, and that the fourth shot, which they were 95 percent confident they had discovered acoustically and was supposedly fired from the grassy knoll, did not hit Kennedy or Connally.
BUT, the Dallas police had 2 audio channels for talking at the time--one for routine stuff, the other for special events (like the motorcade). There was some overlap in the audio which purportedly made for the mysterious 4th shot. Robert Edgar, one of the committee members stated that:
"We found no evidence to suggest a conspiracy. We found no gunmen or evidence of a [second] gunman. We found no gun, no shells, no impact of shots from the grassy knoll. We found no entry wounds from the front into any person, including President John Kennedy and Gov. John Connally. We found no bullets or fragments of bullets that did not belong to the Oswald weapon. And we found little, if any, evidence of partnership with Lee Harvey Oswald. Few credible ear-witness accounts back up the marginal findings of our acoustics experts."
They actually interviewed 178 witnesses who heard shots. 95% of the witnesses heard 3 or less shots. Only 5% heard 4 or more shots.
The national academy did a study and concluded:
(a) The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of a 95% probability of such a shot.
(b) The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
(c) Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman.
Larry Sabato did the best acoustic study to date in 2013: https://thekennedyhalfcentury.com/pdf/Kennedy-Half-Century-Audio-Research.pdf
I did find the photo of the 3 bullet casings in the Depository:
We might have to watch JFK for this week's book club! I've been meaning to go back and watch it again.Here's the Warren Reports conclusion on the 3 shots:
"Based on the evidence analyzed in this chapter, the Commission has concluded that the shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the sixth-floor window at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Two bullets probably caused all the wounds suffered by President Kennedy and Governor Connally. Since the preponderance of the evidence indicated that three shots were fired, the Commission concluded that one shot probably missed the Presidential limousine and its occupants, and that the three shots were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds."
Warren Commission Report Chapter 3
Chapter 3: The Shots from the Texas School Book Depository Introduction The Witnesses Near the Depository On the Fifth Floor At the Triple Underpass The Presidential Automobile Expert Examination of Rifle, Cartridge Cases, and Bullet Fragments Discovery of Cartridge cases and Rifle Discovery of...
I never looked to see if anyone did any ballistic testing of the rifle and bullets, but I assume they did--I just don't recall.
Hell, yeah! Bathrobes mandatory.
While not a particularly accurate film, it is marvelous brain candy. Speaking of candy, John Candy was amazing in that movie.
I know things were incredibly chaotic, but the crime scene was incredibly poorly secured if people can pocket bullets/ bullet fragments and place them willy nilly wherever they want. Which seems like an odd admission, created decades after the fact.
So far, the release of the remaining JFK documents seems to have been a real yawner. We still have those Epstein files to look forward to. Maybe.
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