Israel under attack from Hamas

[CO. Hoosier]

I can't imagine a bleaker place in the world to be born than Gaza. And I never really thought about it until Saturday. That's the lethal combination of terrorism.

The sad part is that it doesnt Need to be. Hamas is a militant terror group. It controls Gaza. Civil order and ordinary life for people is not part of Hamas’ DNA. Compare that to the PLO under Arafat. Two different Gaza’s. Hamas is a creature of Iran. Hamas’ interests are not decent lives in Gaza, It doesn’t give a shit about that.

Israel said it will destroy Hamas. I don’t know how that can happen without strong US-led sanctions against Iran. Biden has no interest in that.

This will never end.

​

 

[Marvin the Martian]

What do you mean by this? Quds force supports Hamas and other terror groups and the world has known this for years. The support includes training, logistics, weapons and intelligence. Whether Quds Force planned this particular attack is irrelevant. The fact is that Hamas is a product of Iranian sponsored terror.

Biden‘s failure to at least mention that we will come after “State sponsored terrorism” (even if he couldn’t bring himself to say “Iran”) is another huge foreign policy blunder. It’s patently obvious that Hamas does not have the wherewithal to do this on its own. The United States pussyfooting around this issue will cost us.

We have for a long time sold military equipment (or given it as aid) to nations that are despotic. Would you argue we are to blame for their actions? Should we be punished if a dictator uses American weapons to suborn the people?

I completely agree with you that Iran has much to answer for. The question is, is this one of the things. I certainly didn't blame the US for Iran using US equipment against Iraq back in the day. I don't blame us for MBS killing the journalist though certainly our military equipment guarantees MBS stays in power. Though we should seriously reconsider our support.

Here is an article from 8 years ago of ISIS growing in Gaza. I don't think it is likely, but it is possible that Hamas has been infiltrated by ISIS and thus isn't completely the group Iran has been backing (ISIS and Iran are bitter enemies). Again, not likely, but I've heard a lot of people, including IDF leadership, say this attack was much more like an ISIS attack than a Hamas attack. So I don't think we can rule out that Hamas has splintered and part of it is under ISIS management.

ISIS Supporters Throw Down Gauntlet to Hamas

A video statement issued by ISIS channels in Syria addressed the "tyrants of Hamas" and vowed to uproot the Palestinian organization.

www.nbcnews.com

Again, I think it is unlikely the Mossad missed such an event. But given this matches what we saw in ISIS' advance across Iraq, it isn't impossible.

Going back, I was very supportive of George W. Bush as he resisted pressure to lash out immediately and bomb everyone back to the stone age after 9/11. He waited, we gathered our facts, and we concluded beyond doubt exactly who was responsible. It was all perfect up until he decided to add Iraq into the equation. Biden has the exact same obligation here. Other solutions may be improbable, but improbable ≠ impossible. You are a lawyer, you know there are degrees of culpability. Iran selling weapons to a known danger is bad, but it isn't as bad as working with the known danger directly to conduct genocide. We aren't going to strike Iran over the former. It is an open question over the latter.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The sad part is that it doesnt Need to be. Hamas is a militant terror group. It controls Gaza. Civil order and ordinary life for people is not part of Hamas’ DNA. Compare that to the PLO under Arafat. Two different Gaza’s. Hamas is a creature of Iran. Hamas’ interests are not decent lives in Gaza, It doesn’t give a shit about that.

Israel said it will destroy Hamas. I don’t know how that can happen without strong US-led sanctions against Iran. Biden has no interest in that.

This will never end.

​

BIDENBIDENBIDENBIDENBIDEN

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Where did you get that 90%? Last survey I could find said 58%. I also don’t believe all of the schools teach them to hate Jews. I know that some do, but when we were there last year we spoke to some educators who were working on unradicaluzing ( not a word) some of the education system.

Does that poll include the West Bank?

Seems like the last election, the secular Gaza party pulled around 10% +/-.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

BIDENBIDENBIDENBIDENBIDEN

You are damn right. That decaying old stupid bastard can’t get anything right.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Supposedly Israel is in talks with the US and Egypt about an evacuation plan for civilians.

The US is leading a supposedly coordinated effort w Egypt.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I can't imagine a bleaker place in the world to be born than Gaza. And I never really thought about it until Saturday. That's the lethal combination of terrorism.

Gaza is often called the world's largest open-air prison. And I know the view of America is largely it is all the Palestinians' fault and they should realize it (and I completely agree their leadership bears the majority of the blame for their plight). The problem is, that isn't how humans think. It is far easier to blame someone else for our problems. So even if it is 100% the fault of the Palestinian people, they won't see it that way. Nor would most here if they lived in Gaza.

To play devil's advocate, if the king had offered Messrs Adams, Franklin, and Jefferson the colonies of Rhode Island and Connecticut to be an independent America to drop the Revolution, would they have accepted? I don't think so, even if the king thought that was fair. I don't think we would accept that offer as a reason to blame us for the war that followed.

Now mind you, I know that many Palestinians want the whole enchilada and that isn't going to happen, we can't allow it to happen. I am just suggesting that if we try to look at it through the Palestinian lens, one can at least slightly understand why even Palestinians who don't want to kill Israelis aren't happy with accepting just any old offer. I might find them being obstinate, and I do, but I know if I were born in that environment I'd be convinced the world was screwing us over. Somehow we have to overcome that natural "us against the world" attitude.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Yeesh

 

[DANC]

I'm as pro-Israel as anyone, but I am skeptical. I don't want to see proof, but someone should verify.

Agree. I remember when Iraq invaded Kuwait there were also stories of babies being abused and it turned out there was no evidence of it.

I really hope it's not true, but wouldn't be surprised if it is.

 

[BradStevens]

They are trapped because they are armed to the teeth and hate Jews enough to kill them all. During “peace” thousands of Palestinians leave Gaza every day to go to work in Israel.

If they are trapped, as you admit, what good does it do to tell them to evacuate or leave Gaza?

In other words, once you admit that all the Palestinians in
Gaza--the guilty, the complicit, the innocent, and all shades in between--are trapped, you can't blame anyone for being there when the bombs and tanks and explosives roll in.

Again, I am all for going in and rooting out Hamas. But let's not hide behind euphemisms. Doing that will mean killing a lot of people and anytime you do that, you end up killing innocent people. Here, it will, no doubt include the killing of innocent Palestinian men, women, and children.

Hamas will make that true for more than it otherwise would because that is one of their tactics. And unfortunately, I can't really say that even those children haven't already been brainwashed or indoctrinated or taught to hate Jews, because they have. I am not a cultural relativist, and can admit that the society and culture of the West is better than that of Palestine and much of the Islamic world.

This is an millenia-old problem. Past civilizations, during Biblical times for example, would simply eliminate the entire tribe. Rome would have massacred most. Christian thought has changed how we approach this, at least for many it has. I think that's an improvement over previous culture and want to maintain it.

At the end of the day, the moral position here is easy: Hamas is an evil organization that engaged in reprehensible actions for which the people who did it, planned it, and were complicit in it must pay. But enacting that payback is very, very complicated given the realities. Trying to make that part seem easy, I think, has the chance of leading to worse moral and pragmatic outcomes.

(One reason I'm writing this is to think it out for myself. This is the first draft, so to speak. So I'm not trying to shame or harangue anyone. But I guess I am trying to persuade--both the reader and myself. As I've written this, I see IUCrazy has detailed his thoughts more and maybe CoH has as well).

 

[CO. Hoosier]

We have for a long time sold military equipment (or given it as aid) to nations that are despotic. Would you argue we are to blame for their actions? Should we be punished if a dictator uses American weapons to suborn the people?

I completely agree with you that Iran has much to answer for. The question is, is this one of the things. I certainly didn't blame the US for Iran using US equipment against Iraq back in the day. I don't blame us for MBS killing the journalist though certainly our military equipment guarantees MBS stays in power. Though we should seriously reconsider our support.

Here is an article from 8 years ago of ISIS growing in Gaza. I don't think it is likely, but it is possible that Hamas has been infiltrated by ISIS and thus isn't completely the group Iran has been backing (ISIS and Iran are bitter enemies). Again, not likely, but I've heard a lot of people, including IDF leadership, say this attack was much more like an ISIS attack than a Hamas attack. So I don't think we can rule out that Hamas has splintered and part of it is under ISIS management.

ISIS Supporters Throw Down Gauntlet to Hamas

A video statement issued by ISIS channels in Syria addressed the "tyrants of Hamas" and vowed to uproot the Palestinian organization.

www.nbcnews.com

Again, I think it is unlikely the Mossad missed such an event. But given this matches what we saw in ISIS' advance across Iraq, it isn't impossible.

Going back, I was very supportive of George W. Bush as he resisted pressure to lash out immediately and bomb everyone back to the stone age after 9/11. He waited, we gathered our facts, and we concluded beyond doubt exactly who was responsible. It was all perfect up until he decided to add Iraq into the equation. Biden has the exact same obligation here. Other solutions may be improbable, but improbable ≠ impossible. You are a lawyer, you know there are degrees of culpability. Iran selling weapons to a known danger is bad, but it isn't as bad as working with the known danger directly to conduct genocide. We aren't going to strike Iran over the former. It is an open question over the latter.

There Is no equivalency between what we do and Quds Force.

With Iran we go back to maximum pressure with sanctions. That was working. I think the Iranians also know where stuxnet came from. Our capabilities are immensely better now. We have a lot of options that don’t involve bombing.

 

[DANC]

View embedded media

"That's some coward shit". Succinct and accurate.

 

[BradStevens]

"That's some coward shit". Succinct and accurate.

Don't forget the kicker: "Fvck you."

Where do I get a Stoudamire jersey?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

So let's get this straight... after losing a significant amount of world support, Hamas is now threatening an internaitional airport WITH more non-Israelis in harms way?



Hamas really is stupid.

 

[bawlmer]

Israel said it will destroy Hamas. I don’t know how that can happen without strong US-led sanctions against Iran. Biden has no interest in that.

This will never end.

​

We'll see. I don't have the impression anything is off the table right now. There was anger coming through in Biden's comments yesterday. I'm not his biggest fan, but I don't think it's business as usual after Saturday. Especially with American victims and hostages.

 

[DANC]

Of course I do. Why would you ask such a ridiculous question? I’ve spent the last three days texting and talking with dozens of Jewish friends with family in Israel. ( I haven’t seen what anyone but Talib has said or done)

You could have just said "Some of my best friends are Jewish". Or "Some of my best friends died of Covid". Or "Some of my best friends are....(fill in the blank".

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There Is no equivalency between what we do and Quds Force.

With Iran we go back to maximum pressure with sanctions. That was working. I think the Iranians also know where stuxnet came from. Our capabilities are immensely better now. We have a lot of options that don’t involve bombing.

I've already suggested above I bet we have the capability to break in and get that $6 billion. I just don't know we we want to show we have that capability in this situation. I also think we fear the precedent as there is a very good chance Russia and China have said capability. But that type of attack is very possible.

But I'm not ruling out a direct strike if we find evidence. There is no doubt Russia will block anything the UN could vote on. So we'd have to go with just NATO (who may not back us entirely). But I could see us taking ships carrying Iranian cargo (see below especially), or going after the Iranian navy. Americans are being held and Americans were killed, we have the right to strike back if we can prove direct Iranian involvement. I doubt any Republican in Congress (except maybe Paul) opposes the idea.

Testing the waters: Direct shipping opens between Iran and Syria - Ship Technology Global | Issue 76 | May 2021

International shipping has opened between Iran and Syria, along the Suez Canal, which may spark heightened tensions in the region.

ship.nridigital.com

 

[DANC]

BIDENBIDENBIDENBIDENBIDEN

Oh, the irony

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[DANC]

If they are trapped, as you admit, what good does it do to tell them to evacuate or leave Gaza?

In other words, once you admit that all the Palestinians in
Gaza--the guilty, the complicit, the innocent, and all shades in between--are trapped, you can't blame anyone for being there when the bombs and tanks and explosives roll in.

Again, I am all for going in and rooting out Hamas. But let's not hide behind euphemisms. Doing that will mean killing a lot of people and anytime you do that, you end up killing innocent people. Here, it will, no doubt include the killing of innocent Palestinian men, women, and children.

Hamas will make that true for more than it otherwise would because that is one of their tactics. And unfortunately, I can't really say that even those children haven't already been brainwashed or indoctrinated or taught to hate Jews, because they have. I am not a cultural relativist, and can admit that the society and culture of the West is better than that of Palestine and much of the Islamic world.

This is an millenia-old problem. Past civilizations, during Biblical times for example, would simply eliminate the entire tribe. Rome would have massacred most. Christian thought has changed how we approach this, at least for many it has. I think that's an improvement over previous culture and want to maintain it.

At the end of the day, the moral position here is easy: Hamas is an evil organization that engaged in reprehensible actions for which the people who did it, planned it, and were complicit in it must pay. But enacting that payback is very, very complicated given the realities. Trying to make that part seem easy, I think, has the chance of leading to worse moral and pragmatic outcomes.

(One reason I'm writing this is to think it out for myself. This is the first draft, so to speak. So I'm not trying to shame or harangue anyone. But I guess I am trying to persuade--both the reader and myself. As I've written this, I see IUCrazy has detailed his thoughts more and maybe CoH has as well).

Hence the use of the phrase "Going Old Testament....."

Ironic that Israel actually is more Christian in its thinking than the ancient Israelis, whom God ordered to destroy entire peoples.

 

[TomEric4756]

I can't imagine a bleaker place in the world to be born than Gaza. And I never really thought about it until Saturday. That's the lethal combination of terrorism.

I’d say North Korea is still bleaker

 

[zeke4ahs]

Does that poll include the West Bank?

Seems like the last election, the secular Gaza party pulled around 10% +/-.

West Bank had even less support for Hamas.

 

[zeke4ahs]

You could have just said "Some of my best friends are Jewish". Or "Some of my best friends died of Covid". Or "Some of my best friends are....(fill in the blank".

Really stupid. Even more stupid than your normal stupid. And that’s a lot.

 

[larsIU]

Don't forget the kicker: "Fvck you."

Where do I get a Stoudamire jersey?

**Stoudemire

Stoudamire

You're welcome.

 

[zeke4ahs]

You are damn right. That decaying old stupid bastard can’t get anything right.

Self reflecting there?

 

[DANC]

Self reflecting there?

Really dumb

 

[zeke4ahs]

Does that poll include the West Bank?

Seems like the last election, the secular Gaza party pulled around 10% +/-.

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#. So in other words you just pulled that number from your ass, as you did ALL the schools teach children to hate Jews.

 

[IUCrazy2]

View embedded media

The guy deserves to have his account shut off because he is likely a terrorist who took part but, I hate when this stuff gets censored because it shuts down peoples' ability to truly see what is going on. And if you have been on social media lately, there is a lot more denial going on in the Middle East than just the river.

 

[bawlmer]

I’d say North Korea is still bleaker

Gaza has over 20k people per square mile, N Korea just over 500. At least there's elbow room in NK. But per capita GDP is under $2k in NK, over $3k in Gaza. So it's close.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

Hezbollah has entered the chat. Looks officially like a two front war.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

Hezbollah has entered the chat. Looks officially like a two front war.

View embedded media

 

[mcmurtry66]

Hezbollah has entered the chat. Looks officially like a two front war.

View embedded media

damn. they must all be making football plays in the dirt

 

[BradStevens]

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#. So in other words you just pulled that number from your ass, as you did ALL the schools teach children to hate Jews.

Schools throughout the Muslim world teach that, Zeke. “All” is a tough standard to prove, but it is certainly a very common practice that needs to end.

 

[mrhighlife]

The leaders of Hamas

View embedded media

This is where the US should enter the chat. Carpet bomb Hezbollah back to the stone age.

Then get on the horn with everyone of our "allies" in the area. Give up any high ranking Hamas leaders in your country or you'll all face consequences.

Then get on the phone with Venezuela(not terrorist just garden variety communist) buy there oil. No more from the Mid east. **** em.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

For those trying to blame Biden/Dems due to the $6 billion dollars that had been released might want to read this article.

How Donald Trump's oil waiver gave Iran $6 billion

Republicans have claimed that the money that was unfrozen as part of a prisoner swap deal with Iran was used to fund Hamas.

www.newsweek.com

That $6 billion dollars was started by a waiver signed by yours truly, Donald J Trump. Not saying Trump was responsible for this past weekend but pointing out that Republicans trying to place blame on dems are just enginging in political theatre BS. Anyone who believed it fell for that piece of conservative propraganda.

 

[Bloom.]

Unfortunately we have folks that want to negotiate with these terrorists. Just like Biden sending Iran $6 billion. Anyone think the Mullahs aren’t still shouting “death to America?”

Biden didn't send $6B to Iran.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

B

Biden didn't seen $6B to Iran.

See my news week article linked above.

Stoll should be blaming Trump for that $6 billion being there in the first place.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

 

[IUCrazy2]

The leaders of Hamas

This is where the US should enter the chat. Carpet bomb Hezbollah back to the stone age.

Then get on the horn with everyone of our "allies" in the area. Give up any high ranking Hamas leaders in your country or you'll all face consequences.

Then get on the phone with Venezuela(not terrorist just garden variety communist) buy there oil. No more from the Mid east. **** em.

If you do that you have to be willing to fight more than Hezbollah AND you have to be committed to doing what needs to be done in order to truly win. If you aren't, then you don't get involved.

That being said....I think we have owed a bunch of these folks for a long, long time.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

If they are trapped, as you admit, what good does it do to tell them to evacuate or leave Gaza?

In other words, once you admit that all the Palestinians in
Gaza--the guilty, the complicit, the innocent, and all shades in between--are trapped, you can't blame anyone for being there when the bombs and tanks and explosives roll in.

Again, I am all for going in and rooting out Hamas. But let's not hide behind euphemisms. Doing that will mean killing a lot of people and anytime you do that, you end up killing innocent people. Here, it will, no doubt include the killing of innocent Palestinian men, women, and children.

Hamas will make that true for more than it otherwise would because that is one of their tactics. And unfortunately, I can't really say that even those children haven't already been brainwashed or indoctrinated or taught to hate Jews, because they have. I am not a cultural relativist, and can admit that the society and culture of the West is better than that of Palestine and much of the Islamic world.

This is an millenia-old problem. Past civilizations, during Biblical times for example, would simply eliminate the entire tribe. Rome would have massacred most. Christian thought has changed how we approach this, at least for many it has. I think that's an improvement over previous culture and want to maintain it.

At the end of the day, the moral position here is easy: Hamas is an evil organization that engaged in reprehensible actions for which the people who did it, planned it, and were complicit in it must pay. But enacting that payback is very, very complicated given the realities. Trying to make that part seem easy, I think, has the chance of leading to worse moral and pragmatic outcomes.

(One reason I'm writing this is to think it out for myself. This is the first draft, so to speak. So I'm not trying to shame or harangue anyone. But I guess I am trying to persuade--both the reader and myself. As I've written this, I see IUCrazy has detailed his thoughts more and maybe CoH has as well).

I understand all of this. But the Inhabitants of Gaza know what and who Hamas is. They have the means to do better. Yes, innocents will die if Israel manages to eliminate. Hamas. ( fwiw, I don’t think they can).

Battle of Atlanta and Sherman’s March to the Sea
Dresden
Hiroshima and Nagasaki

All directed at civilians and all similar.