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Is Curt Schilling Right?

The bible didn't teach the world a single thing new except its existence. We've had about a dozen's Jesus's and they all lived before him under various names. We've certainly had religions of all stripes. Heck, there's over 3,000 varieties of Christianity.

Marx didn't have much right be he nailed religion to the wall, it is the opiate of the masses.
Who cares how many varieties of Christianity there are? And I don't even know what your "dozens of Jesus's" comment means. You mean Jesus wasn't the first itinerant prophet in first century Palestine? Of course he wasn't. How is that relevant to anything? Or are you referring to the widely discredited theory that Jesus wasn't real, but just a patchwork of older myths? If so, stop treating Bill Maher like a scholar.
 
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Love to see you prove, with evidence, that Jesus was real.

Go... there's a good reason those folks who wrote the papers our country founded ignored the story of christ and paid it no homage in creating this country. They didn't believe he was real either. Jefferson created his version of the bible, all 26 pages, by stripping the bible of all of the god-like acts he performed because they didn't think he was real. A noble life depicted, thus Jefferson's bible that is only the story of christ life, no extraordinary acts. If he existed, he was just a ordinary guy who put his pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.

Did Historical Jesus Exist, Traditional Evidence Does Not Holdup. | Washington Post 2014.

Not why I think as I do, but it hits a few relevant points.
 
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Love to see you prove, with evidence, that Jesus was real.

Go... there's a good reason those folks who wrote the papers our country founded ignored the story of christ and paid it no homage in creating this country. They didn't believe he was real either. Jefferson created his version of the bible, all 26 pages, by stripping the bible of all of the god-like acts he performed because they didn't think he was real. A noble life depicted, thus Jefferson's bible that is only the story of christ life, no extraordinary acts. If he existed, he was just a ordinary guy who put his pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.

Did Historical Jesus Exist, Traditional Evidence Does Not Holdup. | Washington Post 2014.

Not why I think as I do, but it hits a few relevant points.

You can get upset about religion's influence on politics but there's no reason to turn vitriol onto religious people. It's a natural coping mechanism of the Human Condition.
 
Love to see you prove, with evidence, that Jesus was real.

Go... there's a good reason those folks who wrote the papers our country founded ignored the story of christ and paid it no homage in creating this country. They didn't believe he was real either. Jefferson created his version of the bible, all 26 pages, by stripping the bible of all of the god-like acts he performed because they didn't think he was real. A noble life depicted, thus Jefferson's bible that is only the story of christ life, no extraordinary acts. If he existed, he was just a ordinary guy who put his pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.

Did Historical Jesus Exist, Traditional Evidence Does Not Holdup. | Washington Post 2014.

Not why I think as I do, but it hits a few relevant points.
I've already covered this on here before, but I don't think you were around. Let me first point out that you are still confusing the question "Was Jesus real?" with the question "Was the Christ real?" They are different questions. Jefferson edited his Bible, not because he thought Jesus wasn't real, but because he thought the Christ was mythical. He thought the real Jesus was simply a good teacher of morals, and the miracles had all been added later.

There are reasons why almost every scholar of religious history agrees that Jesus of Nazareth was a real man. The evidence is very strong. From atheists like Bart Ehrman to Muslims like Reza Aslan, this is clearly not an issue of faith for such scholars. Instead, a study of the historical record makes it clear to them that there are a handful of things we can say with certainty about Jesus the historical man. The Big Two are these:

1. He was baptized by John the Baptist.
2. He was crucified on the order of Pontius Pilate.

We know these two things are true because they pass two important historical tests: first, they are attested in virtually all of the earliest surviving traditions about Jesus and, second, they are unlikely to have been made up by Jesus' followers, because, taken out of context, they are very embarrassing. Jesus' followers had to explain away these two facts.

There are a few other things that are not quite as certain as these Big Two, but still the vast, vast majority of scholars also agree that:

3. Jesus was from Nazareth.
4. He was some kind of itinerant preacher with a small group of followers.
5. He was involved in some sort of disturbance at the Temple that directly led to his execution.

These are facts which are consistent with all the earliest surviving traditions.

After these five basic facts, we get to the point where scholars disagree about who Jesus was and what he preached. Ehrman, for example, sees Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet, preaching the end of the world was near. Aslan sees him as more of a political revolutionary, arguing that the fact of his crucifixion proves he was an enemy of the state, since it was a punishment reserved for treason. Various arguments are stronger or weaker, depending, but we're firmly in the realm of scholarly opinion, and nothing can be proved for sure.

Anyway, the idea that Jesus simply didn't exist at all is an extremely fringe opinion. And that's not because scholars of religion are all Evangelical Protestants. By and large, they are not. It's because scholars of religious history have a much better understanding of how to study and learn from historical sources than your WP writer, who, for example, doesn't grasp the concept that ancient texts are almost always propaganda, and can still be combed through for historical seeds, just as some elements of the historical Jesus can be found in the texts about the Christ. Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Thomas, Paul (to use their traditional names for simplicity) and others who left writings about Jesus all wrote about different Christs. The many views of Jesus are often very different. The overlap is where we are most likely to find the historical seeds that go back to Jesus the man.
 
Love to see you prove, with evidence, that Jesus was real.
....
I've already covered this on here before, but I don't think you were around. Let me first point out that you are still confusing the question "Was Jesus real?" with the question "Was the Christ real?" They are different questions. Jefferson edited his Bible, not because he thought Jesus wasn't real, but because he thought the Christ was mythical. He thought the real Jesus was simply a good teacher of morals, and the miracles had all been added later.
................
The many views of Jesus are often very different. The overlap is where we are most likely to find the historical seeds that go back to Jesus the man.
Excellent, Goat.
 
A counterpoint to the Post article.
I just now got around to reading that. The author goes too far in his apologetics in places (although usually implicitly), but his specific criticisms of the WP article are pretty well on target. I wouldn't grant the gospel writers with quite the reliability that he does, but the overall tenor of the post is pretty good.
 
I just now got around to reading that. The author goes too far in his apologetics in places (although usually implicitly), but his specific criticisms of the WP article are pretty well on target. I wouldn't grant the gospel writers with quite the reliability that he does, but the overall tenor of the post is pretty good.

I'm going to make this topic a reading subject for a while. I usually appreciate the discussions here. The challenge is it seems a lot of writers approach the subject trying to prove a point and stray from good analysis.

(I hope you're able to get some sleep!)
 
It's best discussed over an imperial IPA.

Way off topic for the thread, but if you like Imperial IPAs then you need to try Arctic Panzer Wolf from Three Floyds if you haven't already. You'll have no regrets.

Now, back to religion...
 
It's best discussed over an imperial IPA.

Way off topic for the thread, but if you like Imperial IPAs then you need to try Arctic Panzer Wolf from Three Floyds if you haven't already. You'll have no regrets.

Now, back to religion...

I like Panzer Wolf, but prefer Dreadnaught. I like to joke that the worst thing that's ever happened to me is that I moved away from The Region just before Three Floyds went in.
 
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It's best discussed over an imperial IPA.

Way off topic for the thread, but if you like Imperial IPAs then you need to try Arctic Panzer Wolf from Three Floyds if you haven't already. You'll have no regrets.

Now, back to religion...

Well said. Arctic Panzer Wolf is great. It's not as good as 3F Permanent Funeral though!
 
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Different styles and different flavor. Permanent Funeral could be Two Hearted Ale's big brother. Funny you should mention that. I had a cookout last night and had two bottles of permanent funeral. And I'm not usually one for stouts, but a buddy bought me a bottle of Wig Splitter coffee stout from FFF and it was delicious.
 
3F makes decent beer, but they are extremely overrated. The love people have for them is largely the result of low production and sparse distribution.

Hmmmmm. I'm not sure I agree. I'm not a homer when it comes to them and I think Stone is still my favorite brewery, but 3F is still rock solid. Maybe they do have a bit of a Bose thing going on. They're not the best and get by on a bit of a brand name but they're still awesome.

Source: lots of Bose and lots of beer
 
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Different styles and different flavor. Permanent Funeral could be Two Hearted Ale's big brother. Funny you should mention that. I had a cookout last night and had two bottles of permanent funeral. And I'm not usually one for stouts, but a buddy bought me a bottle of Wig Splitter coffee stout from FFF and it was delicious.

Damn. PF is tough to get. I'm jealous. I also love a good stout. Exhibition stout by bells is pretty good(usually in the winter).
 
3F makes decent beer, but they are extremely overrated. The love people have for them is largely the result of low production and sparse distribution.

http://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/50-best-craft-breweries-america-2014?_mobile=1

Id say top 10 in the country is blueblood territory!

And that is taking into consideration your point about them not brewing the volume that some of the other heavy hitters do, like Bells. Basically though, the Midwest is spoiled. Founders(#1), Bells(#5), and 3F(#10).
 
http://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/50-best-craft-breweries-america-2014?_mobile=1

Id say top 10 in the country is blueblood territory!

And that is taking into consideration your point about them not brewing the volume that some of the other heavy hitters do, like Bells. Basically though, the Midwest is spoiled. Founders(#1), Bells(#5), and 3F(#10).
That's a pretty fair list. Speaking of the Midwest, though, I'd have GLBC, Surly and Fat Head's all ranked a little higher than they are.

I agree with Founders at #1.

I never said 3F was bad. Just overrated.
 
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Semantics goat, You chose to use Christ and Jesus and they are one and the same. The same person I spoke to, stop the bs.

we are also on the same page on Jefferson, you want to put it into different words that is entirely your choice.
 
Semantics goat, You chose to use Christ and Jesus and they are one and the same. The same person I spoke to, stop the bs.

we are also on the same page on Jefferson, you want to put it into different words that is entirely your choice.
What? They aren't at all the same. Jesus was a man who lived in first century Palestine. The Christ is the most popular religious cultic figure in the world. The majority of people who worship the Christ believe that he was also Jesus the man, but from an historical perspective, they have to be separated. It's possible for an historian to study the man Jesus. It's not possible for an historian to determine whether or not he was the Christ.
 
What? They aren't at all the same. Jesus was a man who lived in first century Palestine. The Christ is the most popular religious cultic figure in the world. The majority of people who worship the Christ believe that he was also Jesus the man, but from an historical perspective, they have to be separated. It's possible for an historian to study the man Jesus. It's not possible for an historian to determine whether or not he was the Christ.

Is it proper to use "an" before historic? It just doesn't sound right.
 
I'm going with the bible and jesus wasn't just a man in the bible. He was the son of god, you know that whole holy trinity thing, a god that was known of from birth and visited by kings with that big star in the sky above him.

christ = jesus = holy ghost

Do I need to post the "Taa Daa Jesus" meme here?
 
Really?

Then perhaps you'd like to explain the difference between your mind and IBM's Watson. For me, intangibles such as values and morals are part of human decision making and are an indispensable part of public policy. We can replace you with a robot, but not me.

Except your morals come from what YOU think are moral and ethical and will almost certainly clash with what many others find moral and ethical. I would propose a framework of ethical decision making but you and I would never agree upon it. I guess the difference is that mine would mandate data and evidence to support conclusions. Seems like yours just needs "sounds right" as a qualifier.

We could use a few more robots helping us make decisions. They won't succumb to learned prejudices and fictional sources of morals.
 
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I'm going with the bible and jesus wasn't just a man in the bible.
That was obvious to me from the beginning. Also obvious was that Goat was not discerning that but rather changing your meaning to his choice, wittingly or not.

Then again, I'm an outsider, not allergic to you like many others here. You've probably noticed there is a distinct cliquishness to this board. Pillories are abundant and frequent for those who fall into disrepute amongst certain regulars who don't think out of their box too much.

Entertaining if you can stay out of the fray. Sad, but entertaining.
 
Except your morals come from what YOU think are moral and ethical and will almost certainly clash with what many others find moral and ethical. I would propose a framework of ethical decision making but you and I would never agree upon it. I guess the difference is that mine would mandate data and evidence to support conclusions. Seems like yours just needs "sounds right" as a qualifier.

We could use a few more robots helping us make decisions. They won't succumb to learned prejudices and fictional sources of morals.

I am sure that is true; we won't agree on some things, so what?

Agreement is not an important value. Having the ability to negotiate, compromise, and cope are infinitely more important. The art of family, business, politics and life is imbedded in our coping skills. We are losing those skills as a society. That said, I believe you and I have fundamental agreement about how a society as we have in America should operate.

I have no clue about what you are trying to say in your last paragraph. I am against female children being auctioned as sex slaves. The whole world does not agree with me about that. Do I have a "learned prejudice"? Do those who think Jesus is a fiction believe that the morals expressed in his Sermon on the Mount are a "fictional source of morals".
 
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I am sure that is true; we won't agree on some things, so what?

Agreement is not an important value. Having the ability to negotiate, compromise, and cope are infinitely more important. The art of family, business, politics and life is imbedded in our coping skills. We are losing those skills as a society. That said, I believe you and I have fundamental agreement about how a society as we have in America should operate.

I have no clue about what you are trying to say in your last paragraph. I am against female children being auctioned as sex slaves. The whole world does not agree with me about that. Do I have a "learned prejudice"? Do those who think Jesus is a fiction believe that the morals expressed in his Sermon on the Mount are a "fictional source of morals".

You don't have a learned prejudice based on being against sex slaves. You've walked that problem through your ethical framework and arrived at that conclusion. It's not a good example because nearly everyone will have arrived at that position.

More nuantial examples may better call out learned prejudices/biases. Learned prejudices are beliefs that will take you out of your ethical framework and cause you to deviate from treating each problem independently. Things like racism (even mild) or small N personal experiences would be learned biases that would cause you to interrupt/skew your framework. Don't take this as me calling you racist - I'm assuredly not.

I can grant that morals expressed via the Sermon on the Mount may be morals that jive with many others' morals. But so do morals expressed via Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi during their training of the Skywalkers. My point is that morals should only influence so much and then logic and evidence have to take over or have been along for the ride all along.

And I still disagree with your assertion that coping is the most important. I'd say far more important is the ability to back up a position / course of action with facts and evidence. I agree that agreement is not important as agreement may simply be the inferior outcome of groupthink or coercion.
 
I'm going with the bible and jesus wasn't just a man in the bible. He was the son of god, you know that whole holy trinity thing, a god that was known of from birth and visited by kings with that big star in the sky above him.

christ = jesus = holy ghost

Do I need to post the "Taa Daa Jesus" meme here?
You made it sound like you were denying the existence of the historical Jesus. You shared an article that made that exact argument.
 
You made it sound like you were denying the existence of the historical Jesus.
What bearing does the "existence (or non-existence) of the historical Jesus" have on anything related to current politics and policy? I get that you spent a whole lot of time studying it, but that alone doesn't make it relevant to anything or anyone else.
 
What bearing does the "existence (or non-existence) of the historical Jesus" have on anything related to current politics and policy? I get that you spent a whole lot of time studying it, but that alone doesn't make it relevant to anything or anyone else.
I don't know. Who cares? It's part of history. Studying history makes us smarter, more well-rounded people. Not everything is about policy.
 
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I'd say far more important is the ability to back up a position / course of action with facts and evidence.

That suggests that you place too much emphasis on winning the argument

"facts" and "evidence" are rarely as objective as you make them out to be.
 
I'm going with the bible and jesus wasn't just a man in the bible. He was the son of god, you know that whole holy trinity thing, a god that was known of from birth and visited by kings with that big star in the sky above him.

christ = jesus = holy ghost

Do I need to post the "Taa Daa Jesus" meme here?
You are also, by the way, not actually describing the bible. The trinity is not in the bible. Jesus wasn't visited by kings in the bible.
 
That suggests that you place too much emphasis on winning the argument

"facts" and "evidence" are rarely as objective as you make them out to be.

Yeah I don't know how to respond to this. Let's just say you win.
 
I don't know. Who cares? It's part of history. Studying history makes us smarter, more well-rounded people. Not everything is about policy.
Okay, well, part of being smarter is understanding the guy you're debating with. Christ, as you refer to him, is particularly relevant in modern-day society, "historical Jesus" really isn't, or so it seems to me.

In other words, when you engage someone in a debate about Jesus Christ, the chances are he's thinking about Christ, not "historical Jesus," so at the very least, you ought to be smart enough to find out if he happens to be referring to the uncommon topic of "historical Jesus" before launching into another one of your 10-, 100-, or 1000-post arguments about it, only to find out that he's not referring to hJ.

Then on top of that, you try to pin the blame on him for your misunderstanding. Have you studied your own posting history?! Might make you a lot smarter.
 
Okay, well, part of being smarter is understanding the guy you're debating with. Christ, as you refer to him, is particularly relevant in modern-day society, "historical Jesus" really isn't, or so it seems to me.

In other words, when you engage someone in a debate about Jesus Christ, the chances are he's thinking about Christ, not "historical Jesus," so at the very least, you ought to be smart enough to find out if he happens to be referring to the uncommon topic of "historical Jesus" before launching into another one of your 10-, 100-, or 1000-post arguments about it. (Have you studied your own posting history?!)
I asked him what he was talking about, and he responded with a link to an article that was about the non-existence of te historical Jesus. He's simply changing his story now to avoid defending his earlier posts.

As for you, I have no idea what your problem is with me. Did I insult you at some point? Ban you? You holding some kind of grudge?
 
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'd say far more important is the ability to back up a position / course of action with facts and evidence.
That suggests that you place too much emphasis on winning the argument

"facts" and "evidence" are rarely as objective as you make them out to be.
Nope.

Your switch from position/course of action to argument shows your perverse obsession with winning an argument. Clearly, InRanger is talking pragmatics. He's saying that we should live our lives and run our governmment based on science insofar as that's possible.
 
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