Interesting statistic re: offense

[Sobchak_Security]

Did a little research on 3-point shot distribution for this season. The findings were interesting. Kopp and Stewart were recruited no doubt for their shooting ability. Neither are much above an average defender, neither are great rebounders, and neither can handle the ball very well. Yet, combined together, they average just under 7 3-point shot attempts per game between them. Of those 7, they make 3, so right around 42%, which any team would take from their perimeter shooters.

Now, contrast with Race and X. Neither would be considered good shooters. Race would likely be judged as below average jump shooter, X would probably be considered average, despite the ugly form. Yet, together they average 4 attempts per game from the perimeter (103 total). They make 1 (31).

Why are the higher percentage shooters not getting more shots???

 

[bailey777]

Did a little research on 3-point shot distribution for this season. The findings were interesting. Kopp and Stewart were recruited no doubt for their shooting ability. Neither are much above an average defender, neither are great rebounders, and neither can handle the ball very well. Yet, combined together, they average just under 7 3-point shot attempts per game between them. Of those 7, they make 3, so right around 42%, which any team would take from their perimeter shooters.

Now, contrast with Race and X. Neither would be considered good shooters. Race would likely be judged as below average jump shooter, X would probably be considered average, despite the ugly form. Yet, together they average 4 attempts per game from the perimeter (103 total). They make 1 (31).

Why are the higher percentage shooters not getting more shots???

We have a few experts on this board who should be able to help you. I cannot wait to read their responses.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Did a little research on 3-point shot distribution for this season. The findings were interesting. Kopp and Stewart were recruited no doubt for their shooting ability. Neither are much above an average defender, neither are great rebounders, and neither can handle the ball very well. Yet, combined together, they average just under 7 3-point shot attempts per game between them. Of those 7, they make 3, so right around 42%, which any team would take from their perimeter shooters.

Now, contrast with Race and X. Neither would be considered good shooters. Race would likely be judged as below average jump shooter, X would probably be considered average, despite the ugly form. Yet, together they average 4 attempts per game from the perimeter (103 total). They make 1 (31).

Why are the higher percentage shooters not getting more shots???

Because other teams cover them. They leave the others open and sag into the paint. Like clockwork every game. Woody tries to manufacture more for them but teams have scouted that well as of late. If race and X where 35-40% more consistently they wouldn’t sag at all. Woody let’s them obviously.

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Because other teams cover them. They leave the others open and sag into the paint. Like clockwork every game. Woody tries to manufacture more for them but teams have scouted that well as of late. If race and X where 35-40% more consistently they wouldn’t sag at all. Woody let’s them obviously.

Wisconsin is able to create shots for Davidson, without anyone in the post that is a real scoring threat.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Wisconsin is able to create shots for Davidson, without anyone in the post that is a real scoring threat.

Lol. You seriously comparing Davidson to our guys?

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Lol. You seriously comparing Davidson to our guys?

Oh come on Vic. You‘re better than that. I’m asking why teams that are successful get shots for shot makers and we do not. If you notice, one of the reasons we consistently struggle to win close games is because of who is taking shots, especially down the stretch.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Oh come on Vic. You‘re better than that. I’m asking why teams that are successful get shots for shot makers and we do not. If you notice, one of the reasons we consistently struggle to win close games is because of who is taking shots, especially down the stretch.

Because the whole frigin team can shoot. We have 2. A team like Purdue has 8. Purdue can go 5 out with Williams on the floor. We are the easiest team to guard in the B1G.

 

[NOMORENIT]

I love Xavier aggressiveness on offense and how Galloway can ignite a team with his hustle plays. Problem is down the stretch they were left wide open for big shots. They both chucked up bricks that weren't close. So until we recruit some shooters how about put in Leal, Kopf, and Stewart. Hell, the kid from Zionsville might be able to hit a shot down the stretch.

One more thing. Take a look at IU's free throw percentage in the second half of close games. Those misses probably could have made a difference. Oh

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Because the whole frigin team can shoot. We have 2. A team like Purdue has 8. Purdue can go 5 out with Williams on the floor. We are the easiest team to guard in the B1G.

Wisconsin has 1 guy that shoots 40% from 3. Michigan St has 2. Illinois basically has 2 the play meaningful minutes.

How do they create so much better offense??

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Wisconsin has 1 guy that shoots 40% from 3. Michigan St has 2. Illinois basically has 2 the play meaningful minutes.

How do they create so much better offense??

Who says they need to shoot 40 or better? A three has the advantage if yo hit 33% or better. All those teams still have the advantage over us in that department. Our guys struggle to hit close to the basket even. It also helps if you have a forward that can shoot and all those teams have that. We don’t.

 

[outside shooter]

Kopp and Stewart were recruited no doubt for their shooting ability. Neither are much above an average defender, neither are great rebounders, and neither can handle the ball very well....

Why are the higher percentage shooters not getting more shots???

You answered your own question. They are one dimensional players. They are not hard to guard, at all. You don't need to worry about them taking you off the dribble or shooting a midrange shot (though earlier in the season Kopp did show some pull-up ability). They don't move well or work off screens. They stand around.

 

[Sobchak_Security]

You answered your own question. They are one dimensional players. They are not hard to guard, at all. You don't need to worry about them taking you off the dribble or shooting a midrange shot (though earlier in the season Kopp did show some pull-up ability). They don't move well or work off screens. They stand around.

From Woodson’s own words, he wants them to be stationary. Look at his comments in the MSU postgame.

 

[IUNorth]

A couple "theories"...

1. I think we focus way too much on post ISOs for TJD. The conventional thought is put Kopp or Stewart on the same side, have them feed TJD, space, and at that point the defense has a choice to either double from the weak side, not double, or double off Kopp/Stewart. 2 out of the 3 of those choices SHOULD create an advantage for us...well all 3 should, but not doubling allows for TJD 1 on 1, and doubling off Kopp/Stewart leaves a good shooter open. So, its not that its a terrible strategy. I just think the books out on TJD, who he is, who he isn't, etc... So we're seeing MUCH less doubling. He isn't a consistent passer out of the post. He often posts up too far away from the basket, which negates open shooting areas on the perimeter. And he doesn't really have much of a right hand. So you ride him out of the low block, you body him on his right shoulder to make it more difficult for him to go left, and you stick with Kopp/Stewart. If you feel the need to double, you double off Race, X, or Galloway.

2. Neither Race or TJD are overly willing, or overly good passers out of the post. And neither are versatile enough to consistently catch the ball top of the key, free throw line area, and make plays going to the basket. And yet, they're decidedly our best players. And they make us very good defensively. So I think its a tough dynamic for Woodson and his staff. They need to be on the court. They're really our only upper B10 level players, as of right now.

I guess if I were doing it...I'd go to a more traditional 3 out, 2 in system. And keep Race and TJD on the block, and short corners, as much as possible. Flash Trey into the free throw line/high post area, have Race and TJD duck in. Have them cross screen for each other a lot. And work a lot on skip passes out of the post. This would open up the middle of the floor more for Trey and X to actually have room to make plays when they use their strengths, which is beating their men off the dribble. And depending on how and where the movement worked for the 3 outside guys, would likely give guys like Kopp/Stewart more space to shoot, and as a result, more opportunities.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

A couple "theories"...

1. I think we focus way too much on post ISOs for TJD. The conventional thought is put Kopp or Stewart on the same side, have them feed TJD, space, and at that point the defense has a choice to either double from the weak side, not double, or double off Kopp/Stewart. 2 out of the 3 of those choices SHOULD create an advantage for us...well all 3 should, but not doubling allows for TJD 1 on 1, and doubling off Kopp/Stewart leaves a good shooter open. So, its not that its a terrible strategy. I just think the books out on TJD, who he is, who he isn't, etc... So we're seeing MUCH less doubling. He isn't a consistent passer out of the post. He often posts up too far away from the basket, which negates open shooting areas on the perimeter. And he doesn't really have much of a right hand. So you ride him out of the low block, you body him on his right shoulder to make it more difficult for him to go left, and you stick with Kopp/Stewart. If you feel the need to double, you double off Race, X, or Galloway.

2. Neither Race or TJD are overly willing, or overly good passers out of the post. And neither are versatile enough to consistently catch the ball top of the key, free throw line area, and make plays going to the basket. And yet, they're decidedly our best players. And they make us very good defensively. So I think its a tough dynamic for Woodson and his staff. They need to be on the court. They're really our only upper B10 level players, as of right now.

I guess if I were doing it...I'd go to a more traditional 3 out, 2 in system. And keep Race and TJD on the block, and short corners, as much as possible. Flash Trey into the free throw line/high post area, have Race and TJD duck in. Have them cross screen for each other a lot. And work a lot on skip passes out of the post. This would open up the middle of the floor more for Trey and X to actually have room to make plays when they use their strengths, which is beating their men off the dribble. And depending on how and where the movement worked for the 3 outside guys, would likely give guys like Kopp/Stewart more space to shoot, and as a result, more opportunities.

And using them that way has worked. But you still need the others to hit open looks. We win when X, trey, even race hits open shots. Our guards aren’t great at finding guys open either. This is why we are so inconsistent.

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Who says they need to shoot 40 or better? A three has the advantage if yo hit 33% or better. All those teams still have the advantage over us in that department. Our guys struggle to hit close to the basket even. It also helps if you have a forward that can shoot and all those teams have that. We don’t.

As a team IU shoots 33% from 3. Look, my concern is we seem have a victim mentality when it comes to our offense. Instead of working to get shots for the shot makers, we seem to just shrug our shoulders when X goes 3-16, or when Galloway is shooting 3’s under a minute left in a tight game. We play right into our opponents hands. There was no way anyone but Davis or Davidson was going to take a shot down the stretch for Wisconsin, regardless if we knew it was coming or not. It is perplexing that, over and over, we consistently have the ball in the wrong guys’ hands.

To be more specific, Wisconsin was sagging off of both X and Galloway. Why not use both as screeners??

 

[IUNorth]

As a team IU shoots 33% from 3. Look, my concern is we seem have a victim mentality when it comes to our offense. Instead of working to get shots for the shot makers, we seem to just shrug our shoulders when X goes 3-16, or when Galloway is shooting 3’s under a minute left in a tight game. We play right into our opponents hands. There was no way anyone but Davis or Davidson was going to take a shot down the stretch for Wisconsin, regardless if we knew it was coming or not. It is perplexing that, over and over, we consistently have the ball in the wrong guys’ hands.

To be more specific, Wisconsin was sagging off of both X and Galloway. Why not use both as screeners??

I think the difference here is we don't have a guys like Davis, even Davidson, that are capable of creating, and making their own shots. Wisconsin's swing offense isn't overly complex, and as you point out, they don't really run it at times anyways. Davis just goes 1 on 1 and can, and does, make winning plays. Davidsons shot attempts are often just off extremely hard straight line cuts. He hit a 3 on Parker after their scuffle. There was no screen, it was just him literally sprinting to an open spot and shooting the ball immediately off that cut. Rob is the only guy we have on our team capable of making that shot. And none of our guys make cuts like that. And again, we don't have anyone remotely close to Davis.

So...when we need a bucket...we really need to keep going through TJD and Race. And somehow work on our movement/plays/whatever...to create better looks for guys like Stewart, Kopp, etc... Or...spread the court out as wide as possible, and let X and/or Trey break their man down, and have strategic off the ball cutting so they have good dump down opportunities.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

As a team IU shoots 33% from 3. Look, my concern is we seem have a victim mentality when it comes to our offense. Instead of working to get shots for the shot makers, we seem to just shrug our shoulders when X goes 3-16, or when Galloway is shooting 3’s under a minute left in a tight game. We play right into our opponents hands. There was no way anyone but Davis or Davidson was going to take a shot down the stretch for Wisconsin, regardless if we knew it was coming or not. It is perplexing that, over and over, we consistently have the ball in the wrong guys’ hands.

To be more specific, Wisconsin was sagging off of both X and Galloway. Why not use both as screeners??

All valid points. I know Gardd adjusted to something that took us right out on that last play. We definitely weren’t ready for it.

 

[CriticArisen]

Wisconsin has 1 guy that shoots 40% from 3. Michigan St has 2. Illinois basically has 2 the play meaningful minutes.

How do they create so much better offense??

Not generally a matter of Wisconsin getting him open because he hits deep contested 3's and off the dribble. He makes his own shots including at the end of games.

 

[T.M.P.]

How do they create so much better offense??

They can all shoot off the bounce. Which means the offense doesn't have to create openings for them they can create opening by themselves,

 

[HillzHoozier]

I'd settle for making layups.

 

[IUNorth]

They can all shoot off the bounce. Which means the offense doesn't have to create openings for them they can create opening by themselves,

That helps too. When you have guys like that, all you need to do is create space. Wisconsin does that well.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

So until we recruit some shooters how about put in Leal, Kopf, and Stewart.

you mean, at the same time? If I'm the other team's point guard, I'm liking that line up ...a lot.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

you mean, at the same time? If I'm the other team's point guard, I'm liking that line up ...a lot.

Hell yes. It’s like people haven’t seen enough bad defense. They would score on every possession and foul our bigs out.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

Hell yes. It’s like people haven’t seen enough bad defense. They would score on every possession and foul our bigs out.

yep, let's put the slowest-footed guys we have to guard the perimeter. What could go wrong?

 

[Indymoon]

Did a little research on 3-point shot distribution for this season. The findings were interesting. Kopp and Stewart were recruited no doubt for their shooting ability. Neither are much above an average defender, neither are great rebounders, and neither can handle the ball very well. Yet, combined together, they average just under 7 3-point shot attempts per game between them. Of those 7, they make 3, so right around 42%, which any team would take from their perimeter shooters.

Now, contrast with Race and X. Neither would be considered good shooters. Race would likely be judged as below average jump shooter, X would probably be considered average, despite the ugly form. Yet, together they average 4 attempts per game from the perimeter (103 total). They make 1 (31).

Why are the higher percentage shooters not getting more shots???

Stewart is below average defender, perhaps way below average.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Stewart is below average defender, perhaps way below average.

He’s not as bad as the guys down the bench. Trey is better but his shooting is terrible. We are missing rob.

 

[NOMORENIT]

Hell yes. It’s like people haven’t seen enough bad defense. They would score on every possession and foul our bigs o

you mean, at the same time? If I'm the other team's point guard, I'm liking that line up ...a lot.

Re read the comment. I am speaking about the last minutes for situational subbing. Woody did have Kopf and Stewart in but also had Xavier in. We needed a 3 in one of our last possessions and I am not sure if Xavier should have been out there.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

problem is that Leal isn't shooting any better these days...and he's sitting over there cold as a stone for two hours. If you've played bball, you know it's very difficult to just sit there the entire game, cold as can be, and then come out there under pressure and be able to even get the ball close.
We needed a guy like Jay Edwards. But willing to go to class and pay his parking tickets. I've realized over the past 6 yrs just how damn good Yogi was his Sr year. That's what we're missing.

 

[SoccerSammy]

problem is that Leal isn't shooting any better these days...and he's sitting over there cold as a stone for two hours. If you've played bball, you know it's very difficult to just sit there the entire game, cold as can be, and then come out there under pressure and be able to even get the ball close.
We needed a guy like Jay Edwards. But willing to go to class and pay his parking tickets. I've realized over the past 6 yrs just how damn good Yogi was his Sr year. That's what we're missing.

And passing drug tests would be nice also. Oh how I miss Yogi. Seller gets a lot if we’ll deserved credit but only Yogi won 2 B1G titles

 

[IUclover]

Our offensive sets aren’t setup for them to shoot.

Our PG play does not create open looks for them.

Related to first point, we feed the post and everyone stays in the same spot.

 

[Beorik]

Did a little research on 3-point shot distribution for this season. The findings were interesting. Kopp and Stewart were recruited no doubt for their shooting ability. Neither are much above an average defender, neither are great rebounders, and neither can handle the ball very well. Yet, combined together, they average just under 7 3-point shot attempts per game between them. Of those 7, they make 3, so right around 42%, which any team would take from their perimeter shooters.

Now, contrast with Race and X. Neither would be considered good shooters. Race would likely be judged as below average jump shooter, X would probably be considered average, despite the ugly form. Yet, together they average 4 attempts per game from the perimeter (103 total). They make 1 (31).

Why are the higher percentage shooters not getting more shots???

Stewart and Kopp take .23 and .22 shots per minute. Their primary backups this year Galloway, Bates, and Rob all take .23, .27, and .30 shots per minute. And we all know Galloways would be higher if he didn’t pass up so many shots. Additionally all 3 of their primary backups average more assists per minute played as well.

In short Kopp and Stewart don’t shoot more because of their own lack of game outside of spot up shooting. Our offense doesn’t do anything more for Rob/Galloway/Bates when they are in the game yet they all impact our offense more.

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Stewart and Kopp take .23 and .22 shots per minute. Their primary backups this year Galloway, Bates, and Rob all take .23, .27, and .30 shots per minute. And we all know Galloways would be higher if he didn’t pass up so many shots. Additionally all 3 of their primary backups average more assists per minute played as well.

In short Kopp and Stewart don’t shoot more because of their own lack of game outside of spot up shooting. Our offense doesn’t do anything more for Rob/Galloway/Bates when they are in the game yet they all impact our offense more.

I’d be curious to know how many minutes Kopp and Stewart have played without TJD on the floor vs how many minutes the others you listed have played without TJD. Not to mention that defenses are more likely to help off of the last 3 as opposed to Kopp and Stewart.

 

[Beorik]

I’d be curious to know how many minutes Kopp and Stewart have played without TJD on the floor vs how many minutes the others you listed have played without TJD.

Yeah I would dig into that but not sure where to find those breakdowns. TJD plays the most minutes on the team so probably close to even but I would guess it at least slightly favors Kopp and Stewart as starters. But again that could be looked at two ways. They get less shots because of TJD or they should have an easier time getting off shots because of TJD. Either way I don’t think we want TJD giving up shots to them unless their man doubles onto him which they never do.

 

[TR32]

Did a little research on 3-point shot distribution for this season. The findings were interesting. Kopp and Stewart were recruited no doubt for their shooting ability. Neither are much above an average defender, neither are great rebounders, and neither can handle the ball very well. Yet, combined together, they average just under 7 3-point shot attempts per game between them. Of those 7, they make 3, so right around 42%, which any team would take from their perimeter shooters.

Now, contrast with Race and X. Neither would be considered good shooters. Race would likely be judged as below average jump shooter, X would probably be considered average, despite the ugly form. Yet, together they average 4 attempts per game from the perimeter (103 total). They make 1 (31).

Why are the higher percentage shooters not getting more shots???

Very simple answer: effective field goal percentage.

Trayce, Parker, and Race are all at 57%. Kopp is 46%, which is lower than Trey and Geronimo.

 

[Zeester]

Parker is slow footed and lacks quickness. Doesn't appear to have the court savvy to get open.
Kopp is slow footed and lacks in every other facet of the game. Not sure what he brings.
Rob is a good defender and had one good offensive game, otherwise he really isn't a good offensive performer.

CMW can't seem to run plays to get them open, but I hesitate to blame him because he really doesn't have much to work with. Kopp and Parker are just lacking any quickness IMO.

 

[Zeester]

Very simple answer: effective field goal percentage.

Trayce, Parker, and Race are all at 57%. Kopp is 46%, which is lower than Trey and Geronimo.

If you can't get a shot off it really diminishes the value of your shooting %,