Inflation - 40 Year High

[larsIU]

The continuing low unemployment leaves me hopeful - not assured, but hopeful - that this period of inflation will be mitigated by better wages in the long run.

There are still some employers out there who believe wages will regress to pre pandemic levels. I don't see it, but they're out there. Our hiring/recruiting has been difficult to say the least and we don't even have hourly people anymore.

I tend to agree with you. There will be a "Great Wage Adjustment" that will have happened somewhat organically and without government intervention.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

WSJ: “Inbound container volumes across the 10 largest U.S. ports have fallen by an average of 25% since May, according to liners and terminal operators”.

Do you think this will prevent a strike next month? Negotiations are ongoing.

I think the reduced volume from Asia will benefit both sides. Longshoremen need a painful and long process, because automation is an existential threat.

PMA wants an excuse to “right size” the capacity glut and keep rates higher.

The solution no one will try is to move manufacturing back. Welch started offshoring as his pioneering of only focusing on the next quarter's profits. This is to blame for most of our woes today. We voluntarily gave up making stuff here so CEOs could get bigger bonuses. Maybe this disruption will scare some companies into coming back. But we all know that won't happen in any meaningful way.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The solution no one will try is to move manufacturing back. Welch started offshoring as his pioneering of only focusing on the next quarter's profits. This is to blame for most of our woes today. We voluntarily gave up making stuff here so CEOs could get bigger bonuses. Maybe this disruption will scare some companies into coming back. But we all know that won't happen in any meaningful way.

It's so hard though Marv. Labor and regulations are a killer here, but you have to remember that the money for infrastructure has already been invested overseas. And some products have components made at multiple factories. So the capital investment that has already been made would have to be made again, redundant, then training, and a labor pool that is needy, entitled, and overly regulated. It ain't easy.

All that says nothing to the price tag shock consumers would feel.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It's so hard though Marv. Labor and regulations are a killer here, but you have to remember that the money for infrastructure has already been invested overseas. And some products have components made at multiple factories. So the capital investment that has already been made would have to be made again, redundant, then training, and a labor pool that is needy, entitled, and overly regulated. It ain't easy.

All that says nothing to the price tag shock consumers would feel.

The duplicative problem shouldn't be any worse than when we offshored. If GE can't move a refrigerator plant because of rules and regs, they should tell us exactly which rules and regs prevent it. We might be able to change them.

Any new plants built in the US would be HEAVILY automated. There are videos online of car plants, one barely sees a UAW worker. Here is an article on it, and a quote from it - “You can look out on the shop floor and be hard-pressed to find a person,” said Baron of the Center for Automotive Research. I would think just about anything is going to be that automated. Labor costs shouldn't be close to what they were 30 years ago for almost anything.

Man and machine: The new collaborative workplace of the future

Ford has a new model for its factory floor at its Fiesta plant in Cologne, Germany. Humans and robots work side by side to boost efficiency.

www.cnbc.com

 

[mcmurtry66]

The duplicative problem shouldn't be any worse than when we offshored. If GE can't move a refrigerator plant because of rules and regs, they should tell us exactly which rules and regs prevent it. We might be able to change them.

Any new plants built in the US would be HEAVILY automated. There are videos online of car plants, one barely sees a UAW worker. Here is an article on it, and a quote from it - “You can look out on the shop floor and be hard-pressed to find a person,” said Baron of the Center for Automotive Research. I would think just about anything is going to be that automated. Labor costs shouldn't be close to what they were 30 years ago for almost anything.

Man and machine: The new collaborative workplace of the future

Ford has a new model for its factory floor at its Fiesta plant in Cologne, Germany. Humans and robots work side by side to boost efficiency.

www.cnbc.com

It's not moving a plant because of rules and regulations. It's spending the money to build a plant when you already spent that money overseas. And for small businesses using factories that already exist over there that don't here.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It's not moving a plant because of rules and regulations. It's spending the money to build a plant when you already spent that money overseas. And for small businesses using factories that already exist over there that don't here.

Yep, but they had to build the plant there while they had a plant here to begin with. They've done it, so we know it can be done. We just need to find a way to stop the next quarter as being the only thing that matters. For a long time in America it wasn't.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Yep, but they had to build the plant there while they had a plant here to begin with. They've done it, so we know it can be done. We just need to find a way to stop the next quarter as being the only thing that matters. For a long time in America it wasn't.

You just have to incentivize it here or provide a disincentive for doing it there. I think we should be massively disincentivizing any investment in China.

 

[DANC]

Yes, I think it's been pretty well established as canon on here that government policy backed by Biden is responsible for 1-3% of inflation. Enough experts who are smarter than me have figured that out, so I won't deny it.

I will say something similar to what I've said in the past: I will wait until we see what the long-term real wage growth is before I get too upset with inflation. The continuing low unemployment leaves me hopeful - not assured, but hopeful - that this period of inflation will be mitigated by better wages in the long run.

Yeah, I'm glad to see you give a big Fvck You to retirees and others on a fixed income.

Real compassionate of you.

But let me guess - you'll show your compassion by giving more free cheese to those people!

 

[DANC]

And that holds true for inflation. Biden didn't cause inflation. His 1.9 trillion exacerbated inflation in conjunction with the prior monies from Trump. But this admin has been A factor in making life harder for Americans, not easier.

The minute Biden signed the EO taking away leases and shutting down the pipeline is when oil prices started rising, which ignited inflation.

I don't know why that fact isn't recognized as a major factor in the situation we find ourselves in now.

 

[DANC]

There are still some employers out there who believe wages will regress to pre pandemic levels. I don't see it, but they're out there. Our hiring/recruiting has been difficult to say the least and we don't even have hourly people anymore.

I tend to agree with you. There will be a "Great Wage Adjustment" that will have happened somewhat organically and without government intervention.

Unless unemployment starts spiking due to companies going out of business

 

[DANC]

WTF? I thought that was DanC's job. Am I expected to do everything around here? Sheesh.

He doesn't like me anymore

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You just have to incentivize it here or provide a disincentive for doing it there. I think we should be massively disincentivizing any investment in China.

I have no problem disincentivizing China. My complaint with Trump was we should have focused solely on China as our primary problem, and not the entire world. Don't fight a war against everyone at once, the German WW1 mistake.

 

[DANC]

You just have to incentivize it here or provide a disincentive for doing it there. I think we should be massively disincentivizing any investment in China.

That was the Trump plan.

 

[DANC]

I have no problem disincentivizing China. My complaint with Trump was we should have focused solely on China as our primary problem, and not the entire world. Don't fight a war against everyone at once, the German WW1 mistake.

If you're worried about import dumping, why single out China?

 

[IUCrazy2]

I have no problem disincentivizing China. My complaint with Trump was we should have focused solely on China as our primary problem, and not the entire world. Don't fight a war against everyone at once, the German WW1 mistake.

That is a fair criticism.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That was the Trump plan.

Yep. I think his plan was a little more broad than that, but China was definitely in the crosshairs.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

If you're worried about import dumping, why single out China?

China is our chief threat. I know some think it is macho to fight the entire world at once, ask the kaiser how that works. Pick your enemies. Don't walk into a biker bar and yell "all bikers suck". Maybe point to just one and say he sucks.

If we beat China, we can move on.

 

[DANC]

China is our chief threat. I know some think it is macho to fight the entire world at once, ask the kaiser how that works. Pick your enemies. Don't walk into a biker bar and yell "all bikers suck". Maybe point to just one and say he sucks.

If we beat China, we can move on.

The Kaiser got in a shooting war.

This is a trade war. Unless you're suggesting we get in a shooting war with China?

 

[Spartans9312]

China is our chief threat. I know some think it is macho to fight the entire world at once, ask the kaiser how that works. Pick your enemies. Don't walk into a biker bar and yell "all bikers suck". Maybe point to just one and say he sucks.

If we beat China, we can move on.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

View embedded media

For a long time here I have suggested Russia is the Pomeranian running along the fence barking and snarling. China is the Rottweiler just giving you that look of "if I get out, I will eat you".

 

[Spartans9312]

For a long time here I have suggested Russia is the Pomeranian running along the fence barking and snarling. China is the Rottweiler just giving you that look of "if I get out, I will eat you".

Have you read China Hand? I’m thinking of purchasing.

What Clancy did to elevate the American consciousness about the Soviet Union, we must likewise encourage with Red China.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Have you read China Hand? I’m thinking of purchasing.

What Clancy did to elevate the American consciousness about the Soviet Union, we must likewise encourage with Red China.

I have not, if you read it let me know what you think.

 

[sglowrider]

You guys are crazy. I live in the neighbourhood.

How many of you have had to deal with the Chinese and/or had discussions with an actual China Chinese before?

It's not like some basketball game where you have to beat Purdue or something. But that's how you guys are talking about it. We are talking about livelihoods and actual lives here not some stupid board game of battleship or Risk.

Let's add some realism and some counter-balance to this what should to be a more objective discussion -- otherwise, let's call it what it is, chest-beating, flag-waving wankfest.

Btw the thing that broke the camel's back was signing up the lapdog Aussies to the nuclear subs. Feck Biden for that. Just made the whole region a more dangerous place.

And folks like me will be stuck in the middle of this trumped-up phony war.

First of all, you are talking about currently the 2nd largest economy in the world -- and by the end of this decade the largest economy in the world. If you want to go to war with China, there are no winners. Then we are all the victims of the manipulation by both Washington and Beijing.

You need China as a major trading partner -- if you are complaining about inflation now -- wait till you have all the manufacturing return back to the US. (We need to be able to separate one's identity as who we are versus our individual pocketbooks in order to have an objective discussion on this.)

And as the 2nd largest economy in the world, they are very poorly armed military-wise and even from a geopolitical footprint, even lighter touch.

They have learned from the US that as the largest economy in the world, you need a bigger global footprint -- both military and diplomatic. Protect your raw material suppliers eg Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States -- despite their abhorrent practices. So no one really is the good guy versus the bad guy here -- it's just about economic necessities and pragmatism.

Just take a minute and look -- from the Middle East and all the way to China -- all along its raw materials route. Look at the number of US bases that surrounds China like in Japan, Korea, Guam etc -- and in the region incl Singapore?

If you were China and if the US wants to go on a war footing, wouldn't they be paranoid? If you were sitting in Beijing, walk in their shoes for a minute -- what would you do?

You cant have your cake and eat it which is precisely what is going on.

It's all about the US wanting to maintain its hegemony at any cost. If you want to look at it objectively, it's some strongman tactic.

Besides, all it is, is a distraction or redirection from the domestic politics that is a clusterfeck at the moment. Redirection is the most basic tool of any politician.

If you accept that all empires rise and go down as part of the natural economic/geo-political evolutionary process, then a more pragmatic approach needs to be taken.

Coopetition rather than this silly infantile talk about war. It reminds me of some aging, greying old man talking to some kid about kicking his ass.

The only ones happy will be those in power as it's a distraction device and less talk about their impotence -- and those who make weapons who supply into this dumbassery.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You guys are crazy. I live in the neighbourhood.

How many of you have had to deal with the Chinese and/or had discussions with an actual China Chinese before?

It's not like some basketball game where you have to beat Purdue or something. But that's how you guys are talking about it. We are talking about livelihoods and actual lives here not some stupid board game of battleship or Risk.

Let's add some realism and some counter-balance to this what should to be a more objective discussion -- otherwise, let's call it what it is, chest-beating, flag-waving wankfest.

Btw the thing that broke the camel's back was signing up the lapdog Aussies to the nuclear subs. Feck Biden for that. Just made the whole region a more dangerous place.

And folks like me will be stuck in the middle of this trumped-up phony war.

First of all, you are talking about currently the 2nd largest economy in the world -- and by the end of this decade the largest economy in the world. If you want to go to war with China, there are no winners. Then we are all the victims of the manipulation by both Washington and Beijing.

You need China as a major trading partner -- if you are complaining about inflation now -- wait till you have all the manufacturing return back to the US. (We need to be able to separate one's identity as who we are versus our individual pocketbooks in order to have an objective discussion on this.)

And as the 2nd largest economy in the world, they are very poorly armed military-wise and even from a geopolitical footprint, even lighter touch.

They have learned from the US that as the largest economy in the world, you need a bigger global footprint -- both military and diplomatic. Protect your raw material suppliers eg Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States -- despite their abhorrent practices. So no one really is the good guy versus the bad guy here -- it's just about economic necessities and pragmatism.

Just take a minute and look -- from the Middle East and all the way to China -- all along its raw materials route. Look at the number of US bases that surrounds China like in Japan, Korea, Guam etc -- and in the region incl Singapore?

If you were China and if the US wants to go on a war footing, wouldn't they be paranoid? If you were sitting in Beijing, walk in their shoes for a minute -- what would you do?

You cant have your cake and eat it which is precisely what is going on.

It's all about the US wanting to maintain its hegemony at any cost. If you want to look at it objectively, it's some strongman tactic.

Besides, all it is, is a distraction or redirection from the domestic politics that is a clusterfeck at the moment. Redirection is the most basic tool of any politician.

If you accept that all empires rise and go down as part of the natural economic/geo-political evolutionary process, then a more pragmatic approach needs to be taken.

Coopetition rather than this silly infantile talk about war. It reminds me of some aging, greying old man talking to some kid about kicking his ass.

The only ones happy will be those in power as it's a distraction device and less talk about their impotence -- and those who make weapons who supply into this dumbassery.

Our bases haven't cut off China. They have full access to materials and possess many jobs that used to be in America. They produce most of our stuff now which means we have little power. We cannot cut them off without shooting ourselves in the foot.

But right now the big issue is Russia, and human rights. We have a big difference of opinion on rights. But beyond that, right now our attempts at corralling Russia are totally stymied largely by China.

And they have a long history of industrial espionage and not accepting international copyright

That said, we made huge mistakes with China long ago. Mao and Stalin hated each other, but we assumed and treated China like they were close allies. We could have driven a wedge then that would have reshaped the last 70 years.

 

[sglowrider]

Our bases haven't cut off China. They have full access to materials and possess many jobs that used to be in America. They produce most of our stuff now which means we have little power. We cannot cut them off without shooting ourselves in the foot.

But right now the big issue is Russia, and human rights. We have a big difference of opinion on rights. But beyond that, right now our attempts at corralling Russia are totally stymied largely by China.

And they have a long history of industrial espionage and not accepting international copyright

That said, we made huge mistakes with China long ago. Mao and Stalin hated each other, but we assumed and treated China like they were close allies. We could have driven a wedge then that would have reshaped the last 70 years.

You sound like some old cold war warrior with all that Stalin & Mao talk.

If I was to put pit bulls on either side of your house and then the front, how you would feel about walking outside your house?

China has changed tremendously. They are more concerned about economic issues -- ensuring that the economy can generate some 12-15million jobs every year.

I have had this discussion with my NYC sister (a gazillion times) who gets her news from NYT. Never been to China but have such strong views on how bad it is there. It's just baloney.

They have a different approach to governing. Nobody can replicate the American experience nor should they. That's the naivety of Nixon/Kissenger when they first went and signed the Shanghai Accord.

The bottom line is everyone is guilty of some atrocious acts -- but to act like you are whiter than the pope is just pure delusion. All this talk about human rights? Have you not heard of BLM? Kids being caged in the southern borders etc?

Let's say, Marv, you are Xi in Beijing -- and you read all this stuff that's going on in the States, would you think it reaks of hypocrisy? All the chaos that's going on, do they even want to try and replicate?

If you know China and its history, one of the key domestic objectives are social harmony and peace. They cannot afford to have a country thats been divided like under the Warring States period or ruled by foreigners -- by the Manchus or parts of China run by foreign countries. Or invaded by Japan.

If the US understands China's history, then you may understand why they do the things they do. How it shaped their current approach.

So a bit of reality, pragmatism, and humility go a long way.

My reading of China is that they have always rather cooperate than be adversarial.

But the way things are going they may soon reach a tipping point where trying to work together with the US may just not be an option anymore.

 

[sglowrider]

@Marvin the Martian

Tell me if this sounds familiar?

The Spies Who Launched America’s Industrial Revolution​

From water-powered textile mills, to mechanical looms, much of the machinery that powered America's early industrial success was "borrowed" from Europe.

Long before the United States began accusing other countries of stealing ideas, the U.S. government encouraged intellectual piracy to catch up with England’s technological advances. According to historian Doron Ben-Atar, in his book, Trade Secrets, “the United States emerged as the world's industrial leader by illicitly appropriating mechanical and scientific innovations from Europe.”

Among those sniffing out innovations across the Atlantic was Harvard graduate and Boston merchant, Francis Cabot Lowell. As the War of 1812 raged on, Lowell set sail from Great Britain in possession of the enemy’s most precious commercial secret. He carried with him pirated plans for Edmund Cartwright’s power loom, which had made Great Britain the world’s leading industrial power.

Halfway across the Atlantic, a British frigate intercepted Lowell’s ship. Although the British double-searched his luggage and detained him for days, Lowell knew they would never find any evidence of espionage for he had hidden the plans in the one place they would never find them—inside his photographic mind. Unable to find any sign of spy craft, the British allowed Lowell to return to Boston, where he used Cartwright’s design to help propel the Industrial Revolution in the United States.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You sound like some old cold war warrior with all that Stalin & Mao talk

I would say the opposite, we should have recognized communist China immediately after they won. That decision to isolate them as part of the cold war was wrong. That is not what a cold warrior would say. We believed all communists played for team communist and hated us. Far from it, Mao hated Stalin, they were forced into being team communist.

you know China and its history, one of the key domestic objectives are social harmony and peace. They cannot afford to have a country thats been divided like under the Warring States period or ruled by foreigners -- by the Manchus or parts of China run by foreign countries. Or invaded by Japan.

China was conquered and occupied often. First by it's neighbors then by the west. Before WW1 it was almost like the crusades, western armies would form up to put down rebellions. I get that.

But that history differs very little from Korean history, Korea was very often conquered. But look at South Korea today. Somehow they made the transition from authoritarian to democratic. It wasn't long ago, what around '90 that they made the change

We make mistakes. If China were serious about sitting down with us I would be the first to support it. I have zero concerns with the Chinese people. It seems to me it is their government that does not trust them.

If we are to move closer, both sides have to give. China's is easy, they need to accept international copyright law. China is moving ahead of us in science, it is actually in their best interests to play the game because within the next 20 years we will need to steal from them.

I have been one to doubt COVID is a Chinese plot.

But they have a long history of espionage. Yes, we have ringed China with bases, and I get that is a problem. But it is a problem to be negotiated. I understand their fear of our ring of bases, do they understand our fear of their refusal to accept international law in areas we consider important? If so, deals are possible.

 

[sglowrider]

I would say the opposite, we should have recognized communist China immediately after they won. That decision to isolate them as part of the cold war was wrong. That is not what a cold warrior would say. We believed all communists played for team communist and hated us. Far from it, Mao hated Stalin, they were forced into being team communist.


China was conquered and occupied often. First by it's neighbors then by the west. Before WW1 it was almost like the crusades, western armies would form up to put down rebellions. I get that.

But that history differs very little from Korean history, Korea was very often conquered. But look at South Korea today. Somehow they made the transition from authoritarian to democratic. It wasn't long ago, what around '90 that they made the change

We make mistakes. If China were serious about sitting down with us I would be the first to support it. I have zero concerns with the Chinese people. It seems to me it is their government that does not trust them.

If we are to move closer, both sides have to give. China's is easy, they need to accept international copyright law. China is moving ahead of us in science, it is actually in their best interests to play the game because within the next 20 years we will need to steal from them.

I have been one to doubt COVID is a Chinese plot.

But they have a long history of espionage. Yes, we have ringed China with bases, and I get that is a problem. But it is a problem to be negotiated. I understand their fear of our ring of bases, do they understand our fear of their refusal to accept international law in areas we consider important? If so, deals are possible.

The perspective/perception from Beijing is that the US is intentionally doing all this to make sure that China doesn't get to its rightful place in the global arena.


How does the US break that perception since its seen as a threat?

From my vantage point the US has done nothing to improve that perception -- in fact, they thought that Biden would take a more pragmatic approach. But they are hugely disappointed with Biden. And now probably thinks a transactional albeit erratic president like Trump would be a better fit going forward.

The world order is changing and its creaking under the anachronistic Bretton Woods agreement.

One of the dangers for the US is that its unwillingness to re-invent itself to match the changing times -- until it's too late.

But I suspect its human nature -- you see it in empires or companies. They fight like hell from a startup to be rich & prosperous multi-national and then generations later, get fat and arrogant in not wanting to change.

And that latter generations of leaders have no clue how to change other than to live on the backs or coat-tail off the success of the founders. Spending more time playing internal politics instead of looking at re-inventing themselves.

Then suddenly, the whole organisation is on its knees and they dont know how they got there and how to change.

Organizations work together all the time -- whether Apple v Google etc. Its just that on the surface they appear to be competitors.
I dont see it any different when it comes to economic superpowers.

The US works with people/leaders they morally disagree with every day. As long as it suits the US goals.

No difference between working together with China. Working together on equal terms and mutual respect is the way forward.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

How does the US break that perception since its seen as a threat?

U.S. Job Loss to China Swells to 3.7 Million - Alliance for American Manufacturing

First two years of Trump presidency saw 700,000 jobs lost.

www.americanmanufacturing.org

 

[sglowrider]

U.S. Job Loss to China Swells to 3.7 Million - Alliance for American Manufacturing

First two years of Trump presidency saw 700,000 jobs lost.

www.americanmanufacturing.org

Part of economic evolution. Moving from an agrarian to manufacturing economy to a more service focus.

The US economy is just pushing back the inevitable. It needs to re-structure economically speaking. But has not addressed that challenge for decades. Keeps kicking the can down the road. But the way Congress is right now, it's unlikely to happen. It will just lead to uneven growth and decay in others.

China will soon undergo the same need in the couple of decades. The lopsided growth on the Eastern seaboard needs to be re-distributed.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Part of economic evolution. Moving from an agrarian to manufacturing economy to a more service focus.

The US economy is just pushing back the inevitable. It needs to re-structure economically speaking. But has not addressed that challenge for decades. Keeps kicking the can down the road. But the way Congress is right now, it's unlikely to happen. It will just lead to uneven growth and decay in others.

China will soon undergo the same need in the couple of decades. The lopsided growth on the Eastern seaboard needs to be re-distributed.

The point is, we have sent them a lot of great jobs. The loss of those jobs has fueled the nationalist movement that led to Trump. If we were wanting to destroy China, why would we send them 3 million middle class jobs? It seems we would have embargoed them to stunt their growth.

Sending jobs to China is rapprochement. We are weakened by our lack of manufacturing, much of the economic problems America faces this second comes from supply chains to China.

China and the US need to sit down. But it is a strange idea that we want to destroy China at the same time we are far and away their largest customer. We really did almost nothing to keep those jobs here, heck, we paid CEOs tens of millions to move the jobs.

 

[DANC]

You guys are crazy. I live in the neighbourhood.

How many of you have had to deal with the Chinese and/or had discussions with an actual China Chinese before?

It's not like some basketball game where you have to beat Purdue or something. But that's how you guys are talking about it. We are talking about livelihoods and actual lives here not some stupid board game of battleship or Risk.

Let's add some realism and some counter-balance to this what should to be a more objective discussion -- otherwise, let's call it what it is, chest-beating, flag-waving wankfest.

Btw the thing that broke the camel's back was signing up the lapdog Aussies to the nuclear subs. Feck Biden for that. Just made the whole region a more dangerous place.

And folks like me will be stuck in the middle of this trumped-up phony war.

First of all, you are talking about currently the 2nd largest economy in the world -- and by the end of this decade the largest economy in the world. If you want to go to war with China, there are no winners. Then we are all the victims of the manipulation by both Washington and Beijing.

You need China as a major trading partner -- if you are complaining about inflation now -- wait till you have all the manufacturing return back to the US. (We need to be able to separate one's identity as who we are versus our individual pocketbooks in order to have an objective discussion on this.)

And as the 2nd largest economy in the world, they are very poorly armed military-wise and even from a geopolitical footprint, even lighter touch.

They have learned from the US that as the largest economy in the world, you need a bigger global footprint -- both military and diplomatic. Protect your raw material suppliers eg Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States -- despite their abhorrent practices. So no one really is the good guy versus the bad guy here -- it's just about economic necessities and pragmatism.

Just take a minute and look -- from the Middle East and all the way to China -- all along its raw materials route. Look at the number of US bases that surrounds China like in Japan, Korea, Guam etc -- and in the region incl Singapore?

If you were China and if the US wants to go on a war footing, wouldn't they be paranoid? If you were sitting in Beijing, walk in their shoes for a minute -- what would you do?

You cant have your cake and eat it which is precisely what is going on.

It's all about the US wanting to maintain its hegemony at any cost. If you want to look at it objectively, it's some strongman tactic.

Besides, all it is, is a distraction or redirection from the domestic politics that is a clusterfeck at the moment. Redirection is the most basic tool of any politician.

If you accept that all empires rise and go down as part of the natural economic/geo-political evolutionary process, then a more pragmatic approach needs to be taken.

Coopetition rather than this silly infantile talk about war. It reminds me of some aging, greying old man talking to some kid about kicking his ass.

The only ones happy will be those in power as it's a distraction device and less talk about their impotence -- and those who make weapons who supply into this dumbassery.

So you can see China from your back yard?

 

[DANC]

Part of economic evolution. Moving from an agrarian to manufacturing economy to a more service focus.

The US economy is just pushing back the inevitable. It needs to re-structure economically speaking. But has not addressed that challenge for decades. Keeps kicking the can down the road. But the way Congress is right now, it's unlikely to happen. It will just lead to uneven growth and decay in others.

China will soon undergo the same need in the couple of decades. The lopsided growth on the Eastern seaboard needs to be re-distributed.

How would Congress "re-structure" the US economy?

We are not a centralized planning economy.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

The perspective/perception from Beijing is that the US is intentionally doing all this to make sure that China doesn't get to its rightful place in the global arena.


How does the US break that perception since its seen as a threat?

From my vantage point the US has done nothing to improve that perception -- in fact, they thought that Biden would take a more pragmatic approach. But they are hugely disappointed with Biden. And now probably thinks a transactional albeit erratic president like Trump would be a better fit going forward.

The world order is changing and its creaking under the anachronistic Bretton Woods agreement.

One of the dangers for the US is that its unwillingness to re-invent itself to match the changing times -- until it's too late.

But I suspect its human nature -- you see it in empires or companies. They fight like hell from a startup to be rich & prosperous multi-national and then generations later, get fat and arrogant in not wanting to change.

And that latter generations of leaders have no clue how to change other than to live on the backs or coat-tail off the success of the founders. Spending more time playing internal politics instead of looking at re-inventing themselves.

Then suddenly, the whole organisation is on its knees and they dont know how they got there and how to change.

Organizations work together all the time -- whether Apple v Google etc. Its just that on the surface they appear to be competitors.
I dont see it any different when it comes to economic superpowers.

The US works with people/leaders they morally disagree with every day. As long as it suits the US goals.

No difference between working together with China. Working together on equal terms and mutual respect is the way forward.

"How does the US break that perception since its seen as a threat?

From my vantage point the US has done nothing to improve that perception -- in fact, they thought that Biden would take a more pragmatic approach. But they are hugely disappointed with Biden. And now probably thinks a transactional albeit erratic president like Trump would be a better fit going forward".
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i have no idea what you're talking about, and i don't think you do either.

Biden kisses China's ass all day every day. has his entire political career. and China has rewarded him well in tens of millions funneled though his family for his trouble.

as for China and the US working together, that's been a one way street.

we cater to China, because they literally own us and we have no other choice.

they give it to us up the backside, because again, they literally own us, and there's nothing we can do about it.

all that said, when discussing the US and China, one needs to realize that Xi controls the China side of that, and Wall St, the US side.

whether right or wrong, Xi believes what he does, he does in China's, his country's, best interests.

Wall St doesn't act in the US's best interests. it doesn't work that way.

thus we are now totally China's bitch, which Wall St not only is totally good with, but engineered from day one, and continues to engineer.

as for the immense damage that has been done to the US and it's citizenry and it's sovereignty, well, it wasn't personal.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

"How does the US break that perception since its seen as a threat?

From my vantage point the US has done nothing to improve that perception -- in fact, they thought that Biden would take a more pragmatic approach. But they are hugely disappointed with Biden. And now probably thinks a transactional albeit erratic president like Trump would be a better fit going forward".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i have no idea what you're talking about, and i don't think you do either.

Biden kisses China's ass all day every day. has his entire political career. and China has rewarded him well in tens of millions funneled though his family for his trouble.

as for China and the US working together, that's been a one way street.

we cater to China, because they literally own us and we have no other choice.

they give it to us up the backside, because again, they literally own us, and there's nothing we can do about it.

all that said, when discussing the US and China, one needs to realize that Xi controls the China side of that, and Wall St, the US side.

whether right or wrong, Xi believes what he does, he does in China's, his country's, best interests.

Wall St doesn't act in the US's best interests. it doesn't work that way.

thus we are now totally China's bitch, which Wall St not only is totally good with, but engineered from day one, and continues to engineer.

as for the immense damage that has done to the US and it's citizenry, well, it wasn't personal.

You do a redbull keg stand tonight? Monitor that heart rate man. I love the energy, but you don't want to chance one of them convalescence homes !

 

[i'vegotwinners]

You need China as a major trading partner -- if you are complaining about inflation now -- wait till you have all the manufacturing return back to the US. (We need to be able to separate one's identity as who we are versus our individual pocketbooks in order to have an objective discussion on this.)

this is the false propaganda BS total crap spewed all day by the Wall St Media Industrial Complex 24/7/decade after decade.

if every off shored manufacturer moved back to the US tomorrow, it wouldn't have the slightest effect on inflation.

but it would have a huge positive effect on US jobs and wages and tax bases, and most of all, US self sovereignty which is now non existent.

the cost of living and any inflation is 1% the cost of tvs and toys and raw drug ingredients and auto parts and computer chips and consumer goods, that come from China and other parts off shore.

it's 99% the cost of real estate and monopoly drug prices and gas and healthcare/healthcare insurance and the cost of electricity and internet and cable and groceries and 16-28% monopoly controlled consumer and small business credit.

none of the cost of which has even the slightest to do with where we get our consumer and other manufactured goods or the cost of manufactured goods, the cost of labor in the far east, Mexico, and the 3rd world, verses US labor costs, and the small percent of the cost of consumer and all other manufactured goods that are comprised by labor costs, and the incremental difference therein..

none, zero, zilch, nada.

but hey, even Mr Obvious should have figured that out by now, but yet hasn't in the slightest.

so the whopper false propaganda lies just keep coming, and the idiocracy just keep believing them.

 

[Spartans9312]

Our bases haven't cut off China. They have full access to materials and possess many jobs that used to be in America. They produce most of our stuff now which means we have little power. We cannot cut them off without shooting ourselves in the foot.

But right now the big issue is Russia, and human rights. We have a big difference of opinion on rights. But beyond that, right now our attempts at corralling Russia are totally stymied largely by China.

And they have a long history of industrial espionage and not accepting international copyright

That said, we made huge mistakes with China long ago. Mao and Stalin hated each other, but we assumed and treated China like they were close allies. We could have driven a wedge then that would have reshaped the last 70 years.

Chinese impersonated Texans to sabotage critical US rare earth minerals plant

Chinese agents pretending to be concerned Texans executed an online disinformation campaign against a company building a rare earth minerals facility in

americanmilitarynews.com

 

[Spartans9312]

The point is, we have sent them a lot of great jobs. The loss of those jobs has fueled the nationalist movement that led to Trump. If we were wanting to destroy China, why would we send them 3 million middle class jobs? It seems we would have embargoed them to stunt their growth.

Sending jobs to China is rapprochement. We are weakened by our lack of manufacturing, much of the economic problems America faces this second comes from supply chains to China.

China and the US need to sit down. But it is a strange idea that we want to destroy China at the same time we are far and away their largest customer. We really did almost nothing to keep those jobs here, heck, we paid CEOs tens of millions to move the jobs.

 

[dbmhoosier]

View embedded media

Why would they need to spy? Milley would just call them up and tell them everything they want to know.

 

[Spartans9312]

Why would they need to spy? Milley would just call them up and tell them everything they want to know.

National profile helps the people fighting this in Grand Forks enormously.