This is why you saw woody screaming at race and Galloway to shoot the damn ball. He has that keep shooting mentality.
How Important For TJD To Hit Jumpers
- Thread starter Champs1976
- Start date
Correct. Our players wouldn't be shooting as much, rather penetrating.
And specific to UNC...they were horrible the first couple months of the season. Not even a borderline tournament team. Everyone was talking about Bacot being an All American big, etc... but they were horrible overall. Davis moved Bacot "out", and magically things started clicking more. About a month left in the regular season they started beating teams, they handle Duke at Cameron, and then obviously went on their run in the tournament.
We don't have Davis, Love, or Manek...no. But we're better defensively. And our guys are stronger, and better taking the ball to the basket. Kansas might actually be a good comp. For the most part, they weren't a great shooting team either. But they largely played 4 around 1, even 5 out, and that allowed them to get all the way to the rim much more easily with their penetrators like Obaji, Braun, Wilson, etc... Then as the year went on, they became more and more effective from the 3 as well.
I'd completely backtrack on all this and say I don't care the style that we play in the end. Winning is exciting. Even if that ends up being grind it out, walk it up, dump it down low...if we can do that efficiently and effectively...and that style can attract really good ball players to IU...I'll love it! Its largely how I played growing up and in college. The Purdue game was amazing...those BTT games were awesome...the win over Wyoming felt great! Bring on more of them, however they happen, and I'm all in.
I just know where the game is headed. NBA, high end college ball, its all headed more towards 5 out styles. We have 2 elite bigs that could very easily adapt to that style of play. Both of them probably want to play that way anyways, as it gives them the best prep/look for professional play. We can't get much worse offensively. And it can't do anything but help with recruits. We can, for sure, be a B10 contender and probably 2nd weekend team this year playing status quo on our style. But I don't believe playing that way raises our ceiling high enough to where we could be a legit final four team at the end of the year. And it won't be as widely attractive to 23,24,25 recruits.
And playing 5 out and/or 4 around 1, doesn't mean TJD and/or Race have to shoot outside shots. Bacot, Mark Williams, Kansas's Big, Baylors bigs, they don't shoot 3s. But on the flip side, they also don't spend tons of time posting up like our bigs do.
I just know where the game is headed. NBA, high end college ball, its all headed more towards 5 out styles. We have 2 elite bigs that could very easily adapt to that style of play. Both of them probably want to play that way anyways, as it gives them the best prep/look for professional play. We can't get much worse offensively. And it can't do anything but help with recruits. We can, for sure, be a B10 contender and probably 2nd weekend team this year playing status quo on our style. But I don't believe playing that way raises our ceiling high enough to where we could be a legit final four team at the end of the year. And it won't be as widely attractive to 23,24,25 recruits.
And playing 5 out and/or 4 around 1, doesn't mean TJD and/or Race have to shoot outside shots. Bacot, Mark Williams, Kansas's Big, Baylors bigs, they don't shoot 3s. But on the flip side, they also don't spend tons of time posting up like our bigs do.
Again, you're talking about what you want or want to believe, not reality. The change in UNC last year, and I'll wager I watched them as much or more than almost anyone on here living in NC and dating a Tar Heel grad, wasn't in how Bacot was used, it was Manek getting more minutes and solidfying their rotation. Dawson Garcia ended up being a distraction for them, and Manek teaming with Love and Davis on the perimeter made them a better team, and they also became a much better defensive team in the last quarter of the year and tournament. With Manek, they just had really good chemistry.
You think you're opening driving lanes for our guys, but until guys like Thompson, Trey, Jordan, etc... show the threat of being able to make a 3, their defenders are going to sag, and clog the lane. Two very different rosters, and that will largely dictate style of play.
TJD has passed up a lot of open jumpers during his time at IU and per Woody he could have taken them, at least last season, if he wanted to shoot it.
It would certainly loosen up the defense and driving opportunities from himself and his team if he could knock down a couple per game, but the key is he has to hit a good percentage. It doesn't help the team or his draft stock if he shoots poorly from outside. It will be interesting to see if he steps out to three point land but in reality it's not necessary. Even if he can knock some down from 15 feet (free throw distance) it forces the D to adjust, which they did not have to do the past three seasons.
It would certainly loosen up the defense and driving opportunities from himself and his team if he could knock down a couple per game, but the key is he has to hit a good percentage. It doesn't help the team or his draft stock if he shoots poorly from outside. It will be interesting to see if he steps out to three point land but in reality it's not necessary. Even if he can knock some down from 15 feet (free throw distance) it forces the D to adjust, which they did not have to do the past three seasons.
Thompson and Jordan did by the end of the year. I’ll have to go back and look at the stats on those last 5-6 games but if I remember the bigs did hit a few well placed shots. Trey probably won’t get enough time to get better I’m afraid.
Ok...I'm gonna get through to you. Ha ha...
Xavier brings the ball up the court. Trayce top of the key area. Miller and Tamar or JHS wings, but spread to about 22 feet, not right on the 3 point line. Race corner same side of the floor as X.
A lot of the time, the action starts with a high ball screen, around the top of the key area. X either goes off the ball screen or refuses it and works to penetrate the gap behind the screen. Picture the defense right now. In this situation, most of the time, there would be a total of ZERO people offense, or defense, inside the lane. As X comes off the ball screen if he takes that route, they'll either jump the screen or the defending big will drop a few feet. If he jumps the screen, TJD rolls, and we work to get TJD the ball with a smaller player on him. If they drop, X attacks the big defender, TJD still rolls, and and we get X working to get around a big defender with TJD rolling with a smaller guy on him. We got a lot of lob dunks on this action last year. But lets say that's not there. Race's man will have stepped over into the lane by the time X and TJD are coming down the lane area. Whoever the wing was that was originally on X's side, slides towards the top of the key. Race, reading his defender, cuts hard towards the mid post area for a back fill dump down. He'll get a lot of point blank attempts on this. And once he gets a couple in a game, that'll keep his man honest from sucking completely into the lane. Miller, or whoever the wing is on the side X would come off the ball screen, slides down a bit to give X an outlet pass if he gets cutoff, or good passing lane if his man drops off and helps hard on X...obviously this creates an open 3 attempt possibility, from the corner area, which was a strong spot for Miller, and is often a higher percentage at the college and NBA level because its closer than the wing/key areas are.
Backup to the initial ball screen action. Say X refuses, and works to break down the gap on the ball side of the floor. This has the potential to be more congested for X as he'll have both the wing and Race's defenders in that general area. But what can, and would happen, is TJD diving to the basket "behind him". Big men often aren't great at defending from the outside in like this. TJD will get some lobs from this action...some back door layups, and in general, this would be a great time and place for TJD to duck in and post up his man, Xavier takes a few attacking/probing dribbles into the ball side gap, changes course to look middle, has TJD available for a post opportunity. TJD only has his man, and the opposite wing defender to contend with on that side of the floor. We know TJD wins that battle most of the time. If TJD isn't able to catch the ball going to the basket or in the post off of that, the opposite wing has the entire other side of the floor to make a strong cut and then move towards the basket. TJD sees that the pass is going out to the opposite wing and either pins/seals his man for a quick post up, or sees that they're gonna attack the middle off the dribble so he spaces away to the short corner.
All of this is just if we start with a high ball screen. Another option is starting with TJD at the free throw line area. X inserts the ball on the wing, TJD either sets a back screen on X's man, or X just cuts off him. TJD can then either get the ball passed to him, and he makes dribble moves, to an open paint area, or he can set a ball screen for the wing player, or he can pop out and catch the ball and reverse it and then dive down into the post.
These are all initial actions for our offense. They all create a wide open paint area for the first 5-10 seconds of every possession, depending on how fast X gets the ball up the floor. The paint obviously becomes less open, the more we cut, screen, run people into it throughout the possession. But when you set your offense like this, the defense basically can't camp out in the lane defensively. It would make it entirely too easy for whoever they're original man is, to cut, drive, shoot, etc...
Our "off big's" role in all this is somewhat diminished, versus how we've used them in the past. I'll have to admit. This is where I think Woody would need to get creative and force plays and specific cuts and reads for that off big. Or it might lead to guys like Jordan or Kaleb, or us just playing smaller for more minutes with Miller and both JHS and Tamar...as an example of 3 guys that would probably be capable of knocking down shots. The two bigs would also have to force themselves to go get rebounds out of their own spaces. This could be a big plus, or a minues, depending on how they handled it.
The benefits to all this:
1. It gives Xavier mainly, but also guys like JHS and Tamar, who I think will also try to live in the lane this year...much more room initially to make plays. A defense collapsing into the lane is VERY different than a defense that's already there and just "stepping up" or over!
2. Its a different, more modern look for TJD and Race. Neither player will likely ever be asked to post with their back to the basket ever again, wherever they end up playing professionally. I use the Damon Bailey HS to College analogy. A big chunk of Damon's 3000+ HS points came from posting up. He was bigger and stronger than 90% of the HS kids he played against. That percentage was probably less than 10% in college. And then would have been 0% professionally. Damon is my favorite all time IU player. He single handedly broke down UK's vaunted press in 94. He became a very solid outside shooter. He was a ball player. He figured out ways to help his teams win games. TJD and Race would figure it out. They're not going to bomb a bunch of threes or dribble the ball up the floor. But they're ball players too, within a half court offense, both are smart enough, athletic enough, and skilled enough with the ball to play this way and thrive. And the fact that both are still at IU, at this point in their careers, proves they're willing to do what's best for the team. Most kids in TJD's shoes would have transferred after the first year or two.
3. It creates many more opportunities for guys like Tamar, Jordan, Kaleb, etc... to flourish. Than a more traditional post entry, space away and kick out type offense would.
I think you're focusing too much on what TJD looks like when he shoots an 18 footer, and not enough on what he looks like when he catches the ball at the free throw line and has an open lane to attack...or what he looks like going up and grabbing lobs and/or offensive rebounds. I also think you're discounting how versatile both those guys are, and can be. And that versatility doesn't need to include outside shooting for them and us to be successful.
To be fair, it does take a lot of focus to remember what he looks like when he takes an 18 footer. Mostly due to the fact that he's only done it once per season.
Ha ha... its ugly looking. Kind of leans backwards and has a very slow, herky movment. I wouldn't shoot much either if I were him. But I'd also be pissed off that guys like the Texas bigs from a couple years ago, Mark Williams, etc... all got drafted in the first round. TJD doesn't have to hit outside shots to be an NBA level player. And part of the point I'm trying to make...or maybe just creating open minds for the possibility...is that he's been misused during his time at IU. BOTH for what would be in his best interests for his Pro career...but also what would be best for our team. He's been really good...we've been really, really mediocre. He'll still be good, maybe using him differently will allow for us to expand and grow and become good too.
I can almost hear him thinking, maybe even saying..."I suck at shooting, I don't want to shoot, I want to run and crash the boards, and catch lobs, and make dribble moves to the basket. But all you keep doing is posting me up, and screaming at me to shoot open outside shots." Obviously that's not likely how its going down, but many on this board think that's the solution for TJD, and his in ability and unwillingness to even take outside shots is the problem. I think he probably just knows he's not a good shooter, and wants to go find good shots.
I'm not basing it at all on what TJD looks like when he shoots an 18' jumper (I guess you were watching the one time he did?), and I've always thought his shot doesn't look that bad. But some guys just won't take them and I believe, like Cody before him, TJD is one of those guys. Your theory about spacing and open paint is all great... as long as guys stay with their man. The reality is we have a bunch of guys on the roster who don't command that attention, and if it's even possible, we lost our best statistical 3pt shooter! They'll guard and close out strong on X and MK, but that's about it. All the weak side guys will have a foot in or near the lane, save for those 2 guys.
Heck, I'd love to see it if it worked and that's what those early season games are for imo, but I believe I know how other teams will defend us and they're still going to be cheating towards the lane a bunch. If I'm guarding TJD, he can roam as far out on the floor as he wants, and I'm staying in or near the paint, because I don't have to worry about him out there. Almost the same for JG, TG, and imo, not a lot better than RT. I can't help you if you can't see the difference having a Brady Manek as your PF creates vs Race. Brady took 248 3s and made 98. Race took 55 and made 15. Who would you guard?
Gotta guard both of them. They're very different players. You just don't have to chase Race off the line like you should Manek. I think you're discounting TJD and Race's abilities to make basketball plays going to the basket. Neither are like Todd Lindeman or Michael Durr. If they were, I'm with you. Both would catch the ball and if unguarded, would take 1 dribble and dunk the ball or get fouled trying to dunk the ball.
And opposing coaches would know that you couldn't just "not guard them" out there, because they're not going to just stand still. They're going to flash and cut and offensive rebound, and run to the rim for lobs. You'd have to stay connected with them.
A guy like Brady Manek changes everything, I'll agree on that. Jordan showed an ability to hit shots late in the year, but he isn't great defensively. I'd say our best hope for any sort of suprise Brady Manek type would be Kaleb, or some sort of Dane Fife like shooting emergence from Race himself.
But again...i don't think you really understand how modern teams play and guard. Unless they're in an actual zone defense, basically no one would put 1 foot in the lane defensively against the offense I laid out above. It just doesn't happen. We'd kick the ball to whomever that person was guarding, and they'd have a 1 dribble head start going to the basket as that person was closing out. And it would only take a drive or two where Race or TJD got all the way into the lane before they started closing out further away, and not sucking back in as far. There's guarding out to an arms length or two, and there's chasing off the 3 point line. There isn't stay in the lane and let them do whatever they want with me 5-8 feet from them. That isn't a thing in an sort of man to man defense. Again, zone, maybe...they still wouldn't likely allow them to just stand out there without at least putting token pressure on them. But there are obviously people specifically guarding the paint area on a zone, regardless of where the offense goes.
**Edit...Actually, the part about not guarding someone within 5-8 feet from them not being a thing...that's not entirely true. Crean employed that strategy against UK in the Tournament in 2012. The guy they didn't guard was Michael Kidd Gilchrest...the eventual number 2 pick in the NBA draft. Needless to say, he dominated us that game...I'm not sure he took any shots outside 4-5 feet either. Circling back to my point...good players kinda like not being guarded.
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