For a lot of reasons, it seems one major improvement that could be very meaningful would be for TJD to become at least a threat as a mid range shooter this season. Yes, while pulling him away from the lane a bit would hurt rebounding, his moving out and hitting shots would open the lane and thereby open the offensive spacing a bit. Thoughts?
How Important For TJD To Hit Jumpers
- Thread starter Champs1976
- Start date
I don’t think it would hurt rebounding. The offense was always open and designed for him to take jumpers. He had plenty of open opportunities last season. Woody always gives the green light to everyone on the floor. That’s why you saw race take more shots as the season went on. I think it’s important more for him. I don’t think it breaks the season if he doesn’t. It’s more important to shoot better at the 1-4 spots.
I think more important than him taking more outside shots, is just in general where he and Race are asked to position themselves. And what our focus is on how we get those guys the ball in the paint.
I'd like to see a much more modern, "5 out" type of offense. TJD and Race setting more ball screens, moving around the perimeter a lot more...but then obviously diving, crashing, and ducking in for post opportunities throughout possessions. Xavier would be a nightmare for opposing teams with a wide open lane to attack. Realistically, most teams will sag off both TJD and Race if they're on the perimeter, so its not like our offense would look like the Warriors or anything. But even with defenders sagging off those two, it would still make the middle of the defense more open that it was last year for guys like Xavier, Trey, Tamar, JHS, etc... to get in the lane and either finish themselves or create for others. And then when TJD and Race's men do drop off and help, that leaves them open for dropoff passes on dives to the basket, and/or makes them MUCH more difficult to box out with them crashing from the perimeter.
Those 2 guys not having reliable outside shots does limit our potential. But it was obvious last year that parking one or both of them in the post, didn't result in a very efficient offense. Neither of them are dominant enough with their post moves for that to be the focus of our offense.
If nothing else, what I laid out above would help both of them with their professional career prospects...which would also make IU a more attractive place for long, athletic, versatile bigs...which, if you've been watching the NBA lately, is where the current future of big time basketball is heading.
I'd like to see a much more modern, "5 out" type of offense. TJD and Race setting more ball screens, moving around the perimeter a lot more...but then obviously diving, crashing, and ducking in for post opportunities throughout possessions. Xavier would be a nightmare for opposing teams with a wide open lane to attack. Realistically, most teams will sag off both TJD and Race if they're on the perimeter, so its not like our offense would look like the Warriors or anything. But even with defenders sagging off those two, it would still make the middle of the defense more open that it was last year for guys like Xavier, Trey, Tamar, JHS, etc... to get in the lane and either finish themselves or create for others. And then when TJD and Race's men do drop off and help, that leaves them open for dropoff passes on dives to the basket, and/or makes them MUCH more difficult to box out with them crashing from the perimeter.
Those 2 guys not having reliable outside shots does limit our potential. But it was obvious last year that parking one or both of them in the post, didn't result in a very efficient offense. Neither of them are dominant enough with their post moves for that to be the focus of our offense.
If nothing else, what I laid out above would help both of them with their professional career prospects...which would also make IU a more attractive place for long, athletic, versatile bigs...which, if you've been watching the NBA lately, is where the current future of big time basketball is heading.
I don't think TJD's shooting of jumpers is very meaningful to this team, honestly, although it's probably much more important for his future. Teams are already going to be doubling TJD often, so he's going to have to work to get baskets. Now, if the guys on the floor with him start to hit jumpers at a decent rate, to make the other team pay for doubling and to pull them out and create space? That would be meaningful, imo.
I don't know how much 5 out you'll see; does it really make sense to put our best player who scores almost exclusively around the rim, on the perimeter? I think a 4 out would make sense. As you say, if TJD and/or Race is on the perimeter, it's likely their defender will be sagging so even if XJ (or anyone) gets by their man, they're then going to have another defender to deal with.
So you're ok with having roughly the 100th most efficient offense in the country? Because it isn't going to change much if we park either of them on the block again, like we did last year.
Its all about the spacing and the movement playing 5 out would create. And besides, both TJD and Race were as effective, probably more effective when they caught the ball facing the basket and made moves that way...than they were on the block with their backs to the basket. They're both really, really good at quick 1 and 2 dribble moves to the basket. TJD is above average with his back to the basket. Race I'd say is average at best. Neither are dominant.
And again...our offense was horrible last year. And if you're going to blame it on outside shooting...what did we do to address that? We only lost 1 starter, and none of the guys that will replace him are better shooters than he was.
TJD and Race are athletic enough, and good enough, that they're going to be productive however you decide to use them. Within reason, of course. Neither should ever bring the ball up the court, we should never run plays for them to shoot 3's, etc... But they're both fast, bouncy, long, and good enough with the ball in the half court that they can play "outside in" and still be major factors at the rim and on the boards. Playing more of a 5 out helps the rest of the guys. That's how we take the next step and compete for B10 and Final Four. Dumping it down to TJD and spacing away isn't gonna get us there.
If we play five out the defense doesn't have to come out to guard TJD if they choose not to, and if he doesn't consistently hit the shot, they wouldn't. So the middle would still be clogged up. It's not what you do, it's how you do it ..
Well tbh TJD didn’t just park in the paint. He just wouldn’t take the open shots. Race finally started shooting. TJD had the green light and he can shoot. I think they both shoot more of those shots this year. If you watched Gonzaga in 2021 they used a four/five out but drove and cut to the lane. That’s what I think IU will do. Especially with our new players on the floor. One thing this team will have is a bit better quickness.
I keep hearing guys say the lane was clogged but it really wasn’t. That team last year had tons of open looks but couldn’t convert. Just weren’t efficient enough at anything.
It was in certain games and certain situations... especially late game late clock.
There’s developing a shot and there’s developing a willingness to shoot. I have no idea if he can or can’t shoot, it seems he won’t.
if he’s wide open mid range I’d like to see him shoot it. The defense cannot leave him that wide open.
agree with @hookyIU1990 that he needs to be better at passing out when the double team comes. Either way, when in the post he needs to avoid immediately putting it on the floor and allowing the D to collapse, either explode to the rim (spin move is deadly), or a quick pass.
if he’s wide open mid range I’d like to see him shoot it. The defense cannot leave him that wide open.
agree with @hookyIU1990 that he needs to be better at passing out when the double team comes. Either way, when in the post he needs to avoid immediately putting it on the floor and allowing the D to collapse, either explode to the rim (spin move is deadly), or a quick pass.
fwiw - it doesn't mean the defense were all standing in the lane, it means the the defensive positioning and rotations were all leaning towards lane coverage, and with certain perimeter players they would drop a step in instead of extending. You probably already knew that .. but it needed more clarity.
Yes. I’m just saying it wasn’t like they clogged or would dig all game. Like you said it only happened if the game was close/situational. Like gambling. You take the odds. TJD had open looks a lot. Just wouldn’t take them.
Yup agree with all that and if he starts taking that shot and pull his man back out it creates space for baseline cutters...
If Xavier drives the lane with TJD on the block...there are 2 people occupying that space he's driving in to.
If Xavier drives the lane with TJD on the block, and Race in the other short corner, that's 4 people occupying the area Xavier is driving towards.
Xavier, Rob, Trey, all did a lot of driving into those places...as a result of our offense, those areas were "clogged". And it resulted in less open passing lanes, lesser opportunities for themselves, it even made dumpdowns more difficult.
They didn't ALWAYS run both Race and TJD into the post/short corner areas. There were a ton of possessions where they went high low with one of them at the top of the key, the other on the post. But way more often than not, one of them was occupying one of the block areas, for extended portions of the possession.
Obviously, the thought was our best two players were Race and TJD for most of the season. X didn't fully emerge until later in the year...and when he did, we did a fair bit more pick and roll type stuff, and X's stats and productivity showed. But as you pointed out, we nearly always reverted back to some form of one of the bigs parked on the block when the game came down to the wire, and we needed buckets.
Now...on to what a 5 out offense would look like...assuming both Race and TJD's men do, in fact, sag back.
1. They wouldn't sag all the way into the lane. Defenses don't do that. And that would give Race or TJD an open run to the rim for lobs and stuff. No one plays defense that way.
2. As I mentioned above, Xavier would be driving into an area occupied by probably 1 other defender, assuming Race and TJD are on opposite sides or are spaced away far enough...instead of 2-4 other players. I loved watching Xavier come off ball screens at the end of the year with TJD standing 22 feet from the basket, and Race spaced away opposite. He became basically an All American level PG, stat wise. But he was rarely a "closer" type player at the end of games...my contention is that's because we clogged the lanes back up by parking TJD down low.
3. So, the strength of basically ALL our perimeter players not named Miller...would be catered to, by creating more space in the lane. X, Trey, Tamar, JHS...they're all attacking guards more than they are shooters. Not wide open lanes like you'd get if TJD and Race were good shooters, but for sure more open than last years lane was most of the time.
4. When those players did get into the lane, both TJD and Race are inevitably taught to dive to the rim for dump offs, lobs, or just offensive rebounding. This is how programs like Texas have sent similar guys to TJD in the first round, its what Mark Williams did for Duke, etc...
5. Obviously at any point in time, you can cross screen and roll down into the post, or just flash or duck into the post if you're Race or TJD.
6. All of what I've mentioned above promotes more spacing and player movement. Which would make defenses have to shift and adjust, and would eventually open up areas and spots for shooters like Miller and whoever else emerges as a viable 3pt threat.
7. I don't know where this notion comes from that Miller and Parker passed up a bunch of open looks? Both of those guys are gunners. They passed up shots because they had people close enough to them to chase them off the 3 point line, more often than not. And that's because teams realized they didn't need to double Race or TJD much to limit their efficiency. Most teams made it pretty easy for us to dump the ball down to either of them. Not much fronting. Very little doubling. Its almost like they welcomed us dumping it down there? Hmmm?
In the end...it for sure isn't perfect. TJD and Race not being willing and/or able to hit outside shots does make pretty much any offense we run less versatile, and ultimately less effective. We aren't going to have a top 10 offense next year no matter what we do. But we could have a top 10 defense...and a top 40 offense. I just don't think we can get that top 40-50 offense with anything resembling what we ran most of the season last year.
One or the other was basically always on the block, and they played together A LOT.
So. That doesn’t mean they clogged up the lane. TJD started at the elbow a lot. He passed up lots of open looks. Race did finally start hitting a few and it helped tremendously. I look for those to trend up a tick. Neither will be dynamic at it.
They won’t run the exact same offense. Kopp and Stewart didn’t drive much. That will change a bit at the 2. Both guys who will play that spot can and will create more off the dribble. I suspect our mid range will improve because of that. Kopp can drive a little bit he’s not good off the dribble. I do suspect race and TJD will shoot more. TJD from inside the 3 and race on the perimeter. I think both will be encouraged to. I think you are spot on in the offense ranking. I’ll be ok with 75 a game average and a top ten defense. Hope for more though. 77-78 a game is the sweet spot I think.
It's an interesting argument to try and say we will improve our offense by moving our AA, best player and top scorer away from where he has always proven to be effective and to areas that he's shown absolutely no ability or confidence to score from. And, to answer your later post: yes, if I'm driving I'd rather have the lane "clogged" with 2 people (defender and a teammate), than 1, being a defender only. I think you're relating how you'd like to see us play, without considering our players and their abilities and limitations. Silly to suggest playing a system that doesn't fit our personnel.
There have been times where we’ve seen both players “clogging” the lane where the two man game b/t has resulted in an interior pass and layup/dunk/missed bunny.
with that being said, movement is an offenses best friend, and a cutting TJD would be difficult to defend, assuming he has the hands and it doesn’t result in a TO.
Or maybe you aren't keeping up very well with modern basketball changes and principles? TJD would still get plenty of attempts near the rim. They'd just come predominately with him coming from outside in. He'd largely be facing the basket when he catches the ball. He'd be making 1 and 2 dribble attacking moves while catching on the move. He scored last year in the fashion you seem to be clamoring for, because that's largely how he was used. He was quite a lot better and more efficient when he caught the ball a bit away from the basket, and made dribble moves toward it, or when he caught dump down passes or lobs...than he was catching it on the block with his back to the basket.
Good lord...you still think after all these posts, that I'm asking TJD to shoot outside shots, dribble around on the perimeter himself for extended times, etc...??? Quite obviously I'm asking him to move around the perimeter, set ball screens, flash and cut into the lane, run follow up cuts when our perimeter players get in the lane, and then crash the boards.
Give Trayce some credit, we're not talking about a Michael Durr, or even a Greg Oden type player. He's fast and he's very good with the ball in his hands in the half court making moves towards the basket.
Cody Zeller didn't take many shots from outside at IU. I saw a few of his high school games and I saw him both make 3 pointers and steals where he went coast to coast. Lack of shooting jumpers in college didn't prevent him from shooting them in the NBA.
TJD taking more jump shots can help him and IU. We don't need him to take a high volume of shots outside. He only needs to show a desire and ability to do so.
Not as important as hitting his freethrows.
I just basically said this to a couple IU guy's the other day..
Hopefully we dont go to TJD for a million crab dribbles to the post..
When we absolutely have to have one..Yes..
But a whole bunch more ball movement..Think GSW..
Course we don't have Curry..But someone needs to become like him..Then we're cooking !
If TJD was a threat from the perimeter it would be huge for IU this year and for his NBA draft position. In regards to this year, just think how defenses would have to adjust if he could burn them both from the perimeter and in the lane. It would definitely raise our “ceiling“.
I'm totally keeping up with "modern" basketball and have been regularly talking about how great the modern NBA game is, with it's pinpoint passing, moving the ball to get the D out of position and find the open man and terrific shooting. By far, the best it's ever been at that level.
But, I'm also keeping up with our roster. Where is our Steph Curry? Klay Thompson, or even Jordan Poole? We have to play the hand we are dealt, and as it stands 2 of our 3 best players are more traditional post players. And, they aren't stiffs, in fact they work and pass well together, so let's try and recruit players to the system that CMW wants to play, but adjust to the abilities of our current team.
I think that’s true mostly. I also think neither have to shoot a ton. If race can hit the three a couple of times it would be big. TJD can hit from the corner elbow. I believe(hope) they will. Hopefully their passing as a team will be better too. I think above everything that woody will green light all open shots.
I’m not so sure. Maybe he wants to hit more jumpers but just refuses to attempt them. I’ve seen nothing to suggest that he wants to shoot outside or midrange. I’m sure he realizes if he he was successful it would greatly benefit him-but, for whatever reason he just won’t take them.
He has to have the green light, but he can’t take his foot off the brake.
It will be interesting to watch. Woody has been clear that he has the ability to play in the NBA but has to get some depth to his game. NBA coaches with NBA coaching time will help him immensely.
Yes, but it’s not like this is new. I was “interested to watch” last season too. IIRC, he attempted and made one wide open mid range during the BTT. What’s nuts about that is that I remember a single shot that was neither highlight reel material, or significant in the outcome of a game.
You're keeping with what you've seen from our roster before. We don't have Warriors level perimeter shooters, obviously. No one else in the world, at any level, does. But to your point, comparatively, those kinds of players aren't the strength of our team.
My contention is switching to a 5 out, or 4 around 1, with MUCH less pointed low block posting up...wouldn't utilize TJD or Race any less...it would just be differently. And that different approach, would make it more open and more comfortable for our other players to play to their strengths. Xavier getting to the basket. Trey getting to the basket. JHS, I suspect, getting to the basket. Tamar getting to the basket, and just overall having more space to play and thrive. It might not change much, or help Miller a ton, though I suspect just from the increased movement this offense would create, that Miller would get more/better looks as well.
But most importantly, and to your point, it would also give TJD and Race more room to drive and spin, and dive for lobs, etc...
We've already seen how well TJD and X played together with high pick and rolls late in the season last year. I just want more of that, but with Race in the actual corner, instead of the short corner or post. We've also already seen how good TJD can be catching the ball top of the key, or free throw line area, and making a couple dribble/spin moves. I'd like to see that as well. But what I'd really like to see is Xavier, Trey, JHS, Tamar, etc... getting into the lane, and not always having to contend with TJD and or Race in the post, and their defenders right there for help.
Well, I got news for ya: their defenders are going to be there in the paint, because they aren't coming out til those guys show they can consistently take and make jumpers. Again, it's how you want us to play and not at all how we've shown we can. TJD does seem comfortable with the ball in his hand on the floor and can get by his man pretty well. But he's shown now confidence in an outside shot, and Race is a little more willing, but he's not burned it up from the floor either. I think you're still going to see a fair amount of those guys in the post and that's proven to be our most efficient offensive style anyway. Again, I don't think there's much logic in taking away TJD's most consistent scoring move to get Trey Galloway a (hopefully) open driving lane.
Sigh...their defenders will be in normal help side position, probably a step closer to the ball than they would be if Race/TJD were outside threats. They would not already be in the paint when our penetrators made their initial moves. Good defenses will rotate there quickly, but that movement it would require for them to get into the paint to help guard Xavier Johnson, or JHS, or Tamar, or Trey Galloway...all likely plus high major penetrators by the way...that movement to help and cut them off, would allow for cutting, diving, lob opportunities specifically for Race/TJD. And someone rotating to help is a very different look for those good penetrators, than them driving into our guys posted up, and all the congestion and traffic that causes.
How about this...we just run more high pick and rolls with TJD and Race setting the screen 23 feet from the basket and either rolling (TJD) or popping (Race). And instead of the other big in the post, we just have them start at the 3 point line, say opposite corner. You'll end up thinking you're "right" when both Race and TJD still get a ton of post opportunities. And are still the strength of our team. And you'll just think other guys improving and flourishing is because they "got older"...or got more comfortable in Woody's system.
Armando Bacot averaged 16 and 13, and it was pretty rare that they started possessions or ever even focused on getting him the ball in the post. And he took all of 8 threes on the season. He set ball screens, he started at the free throw line area and ducked into the post. He dove into the post mid possession. They ran specific stuff periodically with either Manek or Black catching it top of they key, and Bacot posting. IU did a lot of this stuff too, the main difference being IU spent long chunks of possessions with either or both of our bigs occupying post areas. UNC did it the exact opposite. They spent most of their time setting screens, moving around the perimeter/mid post area...and then they'd explode and duck in for quick hitting post opportunities.
Its obvious you don't understand how all this works. And in the end, I don't really care if we change it or not. If we can park a guy in the post, and jump all the way from 100 up to top 30-40 offensive efficiency, great! But since we haven't dramatically changed the parts and pieces around TJD and Race, not sure why playing the same way would yield much better results.
you forgot to add that UNC had much better shooters... again, see the correlation between your roster and style? Any one of Manek, Love or Davis were better and more prolific shooters than anyone on our team last year (and yes, I know XJ, PS and MK were fairly close in %, but nowhere near so in attempts). You gotta have the horses before you decide which race to run!
Yes. We saw race do this some. He lobbed to TJD pretty effectively at times. Probably see more of that. Especially since they have a bit better athletes on the floor. Hope it doesn’t take to long to figure those things out.
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