Harvard's Case Study for Problems in Broader Colleges and Universities

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Bill Ackman has an agenda, no doubt. But, the data doesn't lie.



Here is the PDF:

https://pershingsquarefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Veritas.pdf

Enrollment is flat, Faculty is flat, Administration up significantly. Translation? Astronomical costs and ineffective education.

Schools like IU have enjoyed a bit more growth, but the premise likely holds true.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Bill Ackman has an agenda, no doubt. But, the data doesn't lie.

View embedded media

Here is the PDF:

https://pershingsquarefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Veritas.pdf

Enrollment is flat, Faculty is flat, Administration up significantly. Translation? Astronomical costs and ineffective education.

Schools like IU have enjoyed a bit more growth, but the premise likely holds true.

Colleges have to figure out what exactly is in the best interest of the student. What is the purpose of college? It should be to prepare the student for life ie getting a job and holding onto it. So there are different skills one must learn such as promptness, social skills, and solid ethics. I would also like for colleges to teach young people how not to give up on things as easily as they sometimes do. In the end the college should think of themselves as a factory which is creating a product which is a good employee. This will be good for the student and good for the employer.

 

[UncleMark]

In the end the college should think of themselves as a factory which is creating a product which is a good employee. This will be good for the student and good for the employer.

Cogs for the machine.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Cogs for the machine.

Edification enrichment exploration garnering knowledge. Now it’s too expensive. Has to just be a vocational endeavor

3, 2, 1, until brad wants to fight

 

[Cortez88]

Bill Ackman has an agenda, no doubt. But, the data doesn't lie.

View embedded media

Here is the PDF:

https://pershingsquarefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Veritas.pdf

Enrollment is flat, Faculty is flat, Administration up significantly. Translation? Astronomical costs and ineffective education.

Schools like IU have enjoyed a bit more growth, but the premise likely holds true.

One point here. Harvards enrollment is intentionally flat. It must keep the prestige factor by limiting the number of accepted students.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

One point here. Harvards enrollment is intentionally flat. It must keep the prestige factor by limiting the number of accepted students.

Yes and no. I acknowledge the prestige and elite importance for Ivies. I'll use Yale to counter that argument, which has grown it's student body more than Harvard and constantly ranks among the top universities in the world.

Second point - even if there is intention to keep the # of students flat, there shouldn't be a reason or desire to add administrative costs. That business model doesn't work and anyone that is outside of academia knows this. The increased administrative burden is driving up tuition costs, yet still unable to rectify costs in excess of revenues.

 

[Cortez88]

Yes and no. I acknowledge the prestige and elite importance for Ivies. I'll use Yale to counter that argument, which has grown it's student body more than Harvard and constantly ranks among the top universities in the world.

Second point - even if there is intention to keep the # of students flat, there shouldn't be a reason or desire to add administrative costs. That business model doesn't work and anyone that is outside of academia knows this. The increased administrative burden is driving up tuition costs, yet still unable to rectify costs in excess of revenues.

Completely agree on the size of current academia administrators. It’s clearly a major factor in exploding costs.

 

[BradStevens]

In the end the college should think of themselves as a factory which is creating a product which is a good employee.

Uh, no. That's not the purpose of a university.

If you want to go to a technical college, go to one. Harvard (and IU) need not, and should not, become one.

 

[BradStevens]

Edification enrichment exploration garnering knowledge. Now it’s too expensive. Has to just be a vocational endeavor

3, 2, 1, until brad wants to fight

You nailed it. My above response was almost automatic.

 

[mrhighlife]

Bill Maher talks about this a lot...

 

[BradStevens]

Bill Maher talks about this a lot...

View embedded media

70% of professors are untenured. Wow. And somehow, prices have skyrocketed up???

This is a Top 5 issue for me in terms of national importance. And I don't see either political party offering meaningful ideas on how to solve this.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Bill Maher talks about this a lot...

View embedded media

70% of professors are untenured. Wow. And somehow, prices have skyrocketed up???

This is a Top 5 issue for me in terms of national importance. And I don't see either political party offering meaningful ideas on how to solve this.

pretty good answers from the profs. Consumer mentality and $ have converted students to bitchy customers with demands. We actually see it at CoH U.

How often will he post a question or a statement that’s clearly polemical, or simply just an exercise he wants to work posters through, and the responses are immediate and angry!!! No patience. They want to be spoon fed!

 

[hoot1]

Colleges have to figure out what exactly is in the best interest of the student. What is the purpose of college? It should be to prepare the student for life ie getting a job and holding onto it. So there are different skills one must learn such as promptness, social skills, and solid ethics. I would also like for colleges to teach young people how not to give up on things as easily as they sometimes do. In the end the college should think of themselves as a factory which is creating a product which is a good employee. This will be good for the student and good for the employer.

As long as Harvard and the other Ivies attract the leading top notch students from across the nation these institutions will continue to maintain their reputations.

Also important is their alumni network and the fact graduates earn more.

 

[WhyisIUBBcursed]

My 2 kids both have gone to Clemson over the past 8 years. I get Clemson isn’t an Ivy but it’s still a very well respected ACC engineering school. I’ve been blown away at the grade inflation in University setting now. I thought that would end after high school

 

[BradStevens]

pretty good answers from the profs. Consumer mentality and $ have converted students to bitchy customers with demands. We actually see it at CoH U.

How often will he post a question or a statement that’s clearly polemical, or simply just an exercise he wants to work posters through, and the responses are immediate and angry!!! No patience. They want to be spoon fed!

I'm still a little confused about how the student's consumer mentality leads to the need for thousands of highly paid administrators on campus.

For example, DEI offices make up part (it appears to be a small part) of this new administrative bulge. Are they demanded by students? Is a kid really going to say "I'm not going to Michigan because they don't have enough DEI officers?"

Report: U-M’s 163 Diversity Officers The Most Among Big US Universities

2.3 for every history instructor; ‘more focused on promoting narrow and divisive political agendas’

www.michigancapitolconfidential.com

When a university employs more administrators than it has students, WTF is going on?

Administrative Bloat At U.S. Colleges Is Skyrocketing

A recent report found that on average, the top 50 schools have 1 faculty per 11 students whereas the same institutions have 1 non-faculty employee per 4 students.

www.forbes.com

 

[mcmurtry66]

My 2 kids both have gone to Clemson over the past 8 years. I get Clemson isn’t an Ivy but it’s still a very well respected ACC engineering school. I’ve been blown away at the grade inflation in University setting now. I thought that would end after high school

Taters

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Cogs for the machine.

The funny thing is that those attributes VPM wants taught in college are blasted as a waste of time by the MAGAs when added to the curriculum in elementary school.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'm still a little confused about how the student's consumer mentality leads to the need for thousands of highly paid administrators on campus.

For example, DEI offices make up part (it appears to be a small part) of this new administrative bulge. Are they demanded by students? Is a kid really going to say "I'm not going to Michigan because they don't have enough DEI officers?"

Report: U-M’s 163 Diversity Officers The Most Among Big US Universities

2.3 for every history instructor; ‘more focused on promoting narrow and divisive political agendas’

www.michigancapitolconfidential.com

When a university employs more administrators than it has students, WTF is going on?

Administrative Bloat At U.S. Colleges Is Skyrocketing

A recent report found that on average, the top 50 schools have 1 faculty per 11 students whereas the same institutions have 1 non-faculty employee per 4 students.

www.forbes.com

The dei bs is woke crap and could probably suffice with hiring one Kamala Harris.

But these schools. Haven’t you been going on visits? They’re insane. There are constant capital projects. Development. And I don’t mean the iu foundation I mean people overseeing actual development: nailpounders. These schools are massive sporting organizations. Development companies. Science and tech companies.

So here is how absurd this shit is in dealing with a school. I think I told you that I have a HUGE deal in the works. YUUUUUGE. Well our product is what the company wants but it needs to be tweaked. It’s not exactly right. A university owns 4 percent of the product. As part of our tweaking we need it re-tested. To do so we have to have a proposal sent to the university. Then we agree to a contract just for a limited test. Then they having a hiring process for students and administrators to test it. Then they do a report. And an nda. All this bs for something THEY own part of. And should take a half hour to test. So in addition to education they are also running commercial ventures.

It goes on and on. They are their own little city. Own economy. Housing. People charged with regs for that. Anyway you get it

 

[BradStevens]

The dei bs is woke crap and could probably suffice with hiring one Kamala Harris.

But these schools. Haven’t you been going on visits? They’re insane. There are constant capital projects. Development. And I don’t mean the iu foundation I mean people overseeing actual development: nailpounders. These schools are massive sporting organizations. Development companies. Science and tech companies.

So here is how absurd this shit is in dealing with a school. I think I told you that I have a HUGE deal in the works. YUUUUUGE. Well our product is what the company wants but it needs to be tweaked. It’s not exactly right. A university owns 4 percent of the product. As part of our tweaking we need it re-tested. To do so we have to have a proposal sent to the university. Then we agree to a contract just for a limited test. Then they having a hiring process for students and administrators to test it. Then they do a report. And an nda. All this bs for something THEY own part of. And should take a half hour to test. So in addition to education they are also running commercial ventures.

It goes on and on. They are their own little city. Own economy. Housing. People charged with regs for that. Anyway you get it

So they're running all these side projects, commercial ventures, etc. and the students are paying for it? As in, none of the projects make money? Or they just keep all the income and shunt the expenses off on to tuition increases?

But again, even if so, how do those side companies (minus the sports thing) satisfy student consumer demands? I get some entitled brats need to live in luxury housing, but why can't others live in normal cinder-block dorms? How does the educational experience get better?

Damn it, I hope my kids choose this place:

Deep Springs College – Prepare for a life of service

www.deepsprings.edu

 

[mcmurtry66]

So they're running all these side projects, commercial ventures, etc. and the students are paying for it? As in, none of the projects make money? Or they just keep all the income and shunt the expenses off on to tuition increases?

But again, even if so, how do those side companies (minus the sports thing) satisfy student consumer demands? I get some entitled brats need to live in luxury housing, but why can't others live in normal cinder-block dorms? How does the educational experience get better?

Damn it, I hope my kids choose this place:

Deep Springs College – Prepare for a life of service

www.deepsprings.edu

No the students get paid. But my point is that these universities are so much more than just learning centers. They’re mini cities. Makes the quality of life better for students - not necessarily the education they receive

 

[mcmurtry66]

So they're running all these side projects, commercial ventures, etc. and the students are paying for it? As in, none of the projects make money? Or they just keep all the income and shunt the expenses off on to tuition increases?

But again, even if so, how do those side companies (minus the sports thing) satisfy student consumer demands? I get some entitled brats need to live in luxury housing, but why can't others live in normal cinder-block dorms? How does the educational experience get better?

Damn it, I hope my kids choose this place:

Deep Springs College – Prepare for a life of service

www.deepsprings.edu

Deep springs faculty is your exit strategy!!!! Fall in love with a perpetual ph.d student

 

[twenty02]

Colleges have to figure out what exactly is in the best interest of the student. What is the purpose of college? It should be to prepare the student for life ie getting a job and holding onto it. So there are different skills one must learn such as promptness, social skills, and solid ethics. I would also like for colleges to teach young people how not to give up on things as easily as they sometimes do. In the end the college should think of themselves as a factory which is creating a product which is a good employee. This will be good for the student and good for the employer.

Wow, what an amazing, dumbass response.

Spoken like a true Wendy's manager.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Spoken like a true Wendy's manager.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I use that gif often with my exes

Following you were supposed to

 

[VanPastorMan]

Uh, no. That's not the purpose of a university.

If you want to go to a technical college, go to one. Harvard (and IU) need not, and should not, become one.

So why would you send your son or daughter to college if it isn't to prepare them to work in the world? What is your reason then?

 

[mcmurtry66]

So why would you send your son or daughter to college if it isn't to prepare them to work in the world? What is your reason then?

Edification. Enrichment. Experimentation. To find themselves. Pastor you were chosen by the lord so were blessed to have a path and direction fairly early in life. Most of us have to go through learning stages and gain enlightenment and experience to know who we are, what we want to be, and what we want to do.

I personally was a gifted athlete. But I was also incredibly bright. So the options for a charmed life were many. What I didn’t know until later is that the debil had me below the belt. So it was impossible for me to know I’d peak so early in life. Now just imagine if I didn’t have those wonderful college years to look back upon. All id mostly have is pain

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Bill Maher talks about this a lot...

View embedded media

Maher is on point. His guest from UW is not entirely.

• College Run Like a Business - in terms of the approach of consumerism, I somewhat agree. However, if it were actually being run like a business, schools like Harvard (and there are plenty of them) wouldn't be constantly funding losses via the endowment. Businesses have to cash flow as they don't typically have enormous stockpiles of donations to live off.

• Tenure - the claim here was that this is flipped vs. what it was previously, and thus, that is negative because tenured professors have more stability and better pay, and therefore, are better teachers. I believe this to be a leap of faith and there are plenty of examples of IU profs that had full time other jobs and adjuncted on the side, providing invaluable real world experience and examples that some in academia aren't able to replicate. Moreover, I would argue that the tenure system, like unions, creates long-term reductions in productivity and success because those that are part of the group no longer are required to work as hard or teach as well, given their job security. Obviously there is generalization with this statement, but motivations matter to humans.

• Privilege - While I agree that students (or the consumers in this case) who finance their education (regardless of form) deserve to have say in what happens on campus, the notion of silencing viewpoints they don't agree with seems counterintuitive to entire premise of colleges and universities. Even if you disagree with someone vehemently, being able to listen to their points of view without interrupting, protesting (or worse), should be common behavior that is incredibly important for once someone is out in the real world. Disagreement should be celebrated, but it can be done in a manner that is respectful and impactful.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Edification. Enrichment. Experimentation. To find themselves. Pastor you were chosen by the lord so were blessed to have a path and direction fairly early in life. Most of us have to go through learning stages and gain enlightenment and experience to know who we are, what we want to be, and what we want to do.

I personally was a gifted athlete. But I was also incredibly bright. So the options for a charmed life were many. What I didn’t know until later is that the debil had me below the belt. So it was impossible for me to know I’d peak so early in life. Now just imagine if I didn’t have those wonderful college years to look back upon. All id mostly have is pain

Thanks for sharing part of your story. I get it that young people have a process to find their way. I didn't become a pastor until I was in my early 30's. It was kind of funny that when I was a freshman in Chicago I would wear those cardigan sweaters with a tie. One of the other freshmen who was probably 18 thought I was a professor. I laughed and said, "No, man I am a freshman like you". I knew a man from Northern Indiana named Bill who was in his 50's when he attended Moody Bible Institute. He would take the train every day to the city. So people at different times in their lives change the direction. What I would advise any young student is to pick a field and then go after it. Find out if you have an aptitude and an interest in it and then work towards that goal. I was not the best student at Moody, but one of my Professors was speaking at a church in the area where I was the pastor of. Someone at that church found out I was a student of his and asked about me. This is what he said, "People have asked me if I remember Van. Yes I do. I remember his intense desire to become a pastor. I also remember him being very good in the pulpit".

I bring that up for several reasons. I had a goal to become a pastor which is why I was there. In fact some professors and the one I mentioned would say to me, "Can't you just learn something just to learn it?" They asked that because I was always looking for the practical. "When I am a pastor how do I use this?" The other comment about me being good from the pulpit really floored me because when I took this professor for two different preaching classes he would just tear through my sermon and critique me like crazy. He made me feel like I was 2 feet tall.

By the way, I was not an athlete in high school though I was the best bowler for 2 yrs in a row and my team won the league championship twice.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Thanks for sharing part of your story. I get it that young people have a process to find their way. I didn't become a pastor until I was in my early 30's. It was kind of funny that when I was a freshman in Chicago I would wear those cardigan sweaters with a tie. One of the other freshmen who was probably 18 thought I was a professor. I laughed and said, "No, man I am a freshman like you". I knew a man from Northern Indiana named Bill who was in his 50's when he attended Moody Bible Institute. He would take the train every day to the city. So people at different times in their lives change the direction. What I would advise any young student is to pick a field and then go after it. Find out if you have an aptitude and an interest in it and then work towards that goal. I was not the best student at Moody, but one of my Professors was speaking at a church in the area where I was the pastor of. Someone at that church found out I was a student of his and asked about me. This is what he said, "People have asked me if I remember Van. Yes I do. I remember his intense desire to become a pastor. I also remember him being very good in the pulpit".

I bring that up for several reasons. I had a goal to become a pastor which is why I was there. In fact some professors and the one I mentioned would say to me, "Can't you just learn something just to learn it?" They asked that because I was always looking for the practical. "When I am a pastor how do I use this?" The other comment about me being good from the pulpit really floored me because when I took this professor for two different preaching classes he would just tear through my sermon and critique me like crazy. He made me feel like I was 2 feet tall.

By the way, I was not an athlete in high school though I was the best bowler for 2 yrs in a row and my team won the league championship twice.

You had a higher calling than the athletes and money-chasers. No one on this board, few anywhere, understand the responsibility, and power, that comes with commanding a pulpit

 

[BradStevens]

Thanks for sharing part of your story. I get it that young people have a process to find their way. I didn't become a pastor until I was in my early 30's. It was kind of funny that when I was a freshman in Chicago I would wear those cardigan sweaters with a tie. One of the other freshmen who was probably 18 thought I was a professor. I laughed and said, "No, man I am a freshman like you". I knew a man from Northern Indiana named Bill who was in his 50's when he attended Moody Bible Institute. He would take the train every day to the city. So people at different times in their lives change the direction. What I would advise any young student is to pick a field and then go after it. Find out if you have an aptitude and an interest in it and then work towards that goal. I was not the best student at Moody, but one of my Professors was speaking at a church in the area where I was the pastor of. Someone at that church found out I was a student of his and asked about me. This is what he said, "People have asked me if I remember Van. Yes I do. I remember his intense desire to become a pastor. I also remember him being very good in the pulpit".

I bring that up for several reasons. I had a goal to become a pastor which is why I was there. In fact some professors and the one I mentioned would say to me, "Can't you just learn something just to learn it?" They asked that because I was always looking for the practical. "When I am a pastor how do I use this?" The other comment about me being good from the pulpit really floored me because when I took this professor for two different preaching classes he would just tear through my sermon and critique me like crazy. He made me feel like I was 2 feet tall.

By the way, I was not an athlete in high school though I was the best bowler for 2 yrs in a row and my team won the league championship twice.

Are you implying bowlers aren’t real athletes? How dare you, sir:

 

[BradStevens]

The dei bs is woke crap and could probably suffice with hiring one Kamala Harris.

But these schools. Haven’t you been going on visits? They’re insane. There are constant capital projects. Development. And I don’t mean the iu foundation I mean people overseeing actual development: nailpounders. These schools are massive sporting organizations. Development companies. Science and tech companies.

So here is how absurd this shit is in dealing with a school. I think I told you that I have a HUGE deal in the works. YUUUUUGE. Well our product is what the company wants but it needs to be tweaked. It’s not exactly right. A university owns 4 percent of the product. As part of our tweaking we need it re-tested. To do so we have to have a proposal sent to the university. Then we agree to a contract just for a limited test. Then they having a hiring process for students and administrators to test it. Then they do a report. And an nda. All this bs for something THEY own part of. And should take a half hour to test. So in addition to education they are also running commercial ventures.

It goes on and on. They are their own little city. Own economy. Housing. People charged with regs for that. Anyway you get it

What’s the ETA on the MEGADEAL?

 

[mcmurtry66]

What’s the ETA on the MEGADEAL?

Post cancer diagnosis. Or stroke probably

 

[hoot1]

Are you implying bowlers aren’t real athletes? How dare you, sir:

Brad, read in the book Winner-Take-All-Society that the world's best horse shoe player had to moonlight as a professional bowler in order to make a living.

Didn't think there was much money as a bowler. Guess compared to horse shoes there is.

Wonder where corn hole playing falls in the sports income pecking order ?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Brad, read in the book Winner-Take-All-Society that the world's best horse shoe player had to moonlight as a professional bowler in order to make a living.

Didn't think there was much money as a bowler. Guess compared to horse shoes there is.

Wonder where corn hole playing falls in the sports income pecking order ?

How many beers you think that guy could drink

 

[Spartans9312]

How many beers you think that guy could drink

All of em

 

[mcmurtry66]

All of em

Died of natural causes at 37

 

[Spartans9312]

Died of natural causes at 37

Well…yeah

 

[BradStevens]

Brad, read in the book Winner-Take-All-Society that the world's best horse shoe player had to moonlight as a professional bowler in order to make a living.

Didn't think there was much money as a bowler. Guess compared to horse shoes there is.

Wonder where corn hole playing falls in the sports income pecking order ?

Far, far below pickleball. Probably close to frisbee golf.

 

[IUCrazy2]

70% of professors are untenured. Wow. And somehow, prices have skyrocketed up???

This is a Top 5 issue for me in terms of national importance. And I don't see either political party offering meaningful ideas on how to solve this.

Administrative bloat comes from knowing they have a captive revenue stream through the government loans. Allow those loans to be subject to bankruptcy and you force colleges to face the downsides of the cost of education. As it is now, they have a government enforced blank check as one of the primary gatekeepers of higher wage jobs. Force them to have real skin in the game.

 

[BradStevens]

Administrative bloat comes from knowing they have a captive revenue stream through the government loans. Allow those loans to be subject to bankruptcy and you force colleges to face the downsides of the cost of education. As it is now, they have a government enforced blank check as one of the primary gatekeepers of higher wage jobs. Force them to have real skin in the game.

How would colleges face the downside of loans that could be discharged in BK? Schools don't loan the money out.

I agree, though, that it would make sense to tie incentives better between school and student. I worry, though, that it might lead to a lot of unintended, unforeseen consequences.