Great stat for this weekends winners

[Paterfamilias]

Here are the Assist-Turnover numbers for this weekends 2-0 Sweet 16 teams. The poorly coached Bruins ended up with over a 5 to 1 ratio, while only Purdue and Michigan managed a 2 to 1 ratio. Just imagine if UCLA had a decent coach.

46-9 UCLA (34-7 not by Lonzo Ball)
43-20 Purdue
35-24 Xavier
33-20 S. Carolina
33-27 UNC
31-19 Kansas
31-22 Butler
31-24 Baylor
31-25 W,Virginia
30-10 Michigan
28-22 Wisconsin
26-25 Florida
24-24 Oregon
23-20 Kentucky
18-16 Arizona
18-23 Gonzaga

 

[IndianaHoops]

Here are the Assist-Turnover numbers for this weekends 2-0 Sweet 16 teams. The poorly coached Bruins ended up with over a 5 to 1 ratio, while only Purdue and Michigan managed a 2 to 1 ratio. Just imagine if UCLA had a decent coach.

46-9 UCLA (34-7 not by Lonzo Ball)
43-20 Purdue
35-24 Xavier
33-20 S. Carolina
33-27 UNC
31-19 Kansas
31-22 Butler
31-24 Baylor
31-25 W,Virginia
30-10 Michigan
28-22 Wisconsin
26-25 Florida
24-24 Oregon
23-20 Kentucky
18-16 Arizona
18-23 Gonzaga

What's was the assist/turnover ratio last year for UCLA? What was IU's last year?

You sure that top 3 NBA Draft pick doesn't have something to do with that?

 

[Paterfamilias]

What's was the assist/turnover ratio last year for UCLA? What was IU's last year?

You sure that top 3 NBA Draft pick doesn't have something to do with that?

UCLA ranked 51st in Assist-Turnover Ratio last year, while IU ranked 93rd in their magical season.

Lonzo Ball has a lot to do with it, but this year UCLA has the second best Assist-Turnover Ratio of the past 20 years of college basketball (slightly behind 2006 West Virginia) and there have been a lot of fine players over the past 20 years.

 

[YOTHN]

Here are the Assist-Turnover numbers for this weekends 2-0 Sweet 16 teams. The poorly coached Bruins ended up with over a 5 to 1 ratio, while only Purdue and Michigan managed a 2 to 1 ratio. Just imagine if UCLA had a decent coach.

46-9 UCLA (34-7 not by Lonzo Ball)
43-20 Purdue
35-24 Xavier
33-20 S. Carolina
33-27 UNC
31-19 Kansas
31-22 Butler
31-24 Baylor
31-25 W,Virginia
30-10 Michigan
28-22 Wisconsin
26-25 Florida
24-24 Oregon
23-20 Kentucky
18-16 Arizona
18-23 Gonzaga

Well, that looks like the NCAA rankings right there.....wait no it doesn't. Fun stat but to me that doesn't equal 'coaching'. Or does that one stat now mean Alford is better than Bill Self? Sean Miller? Roy Williams....etc? Show me defensive stats and that tells me where a coaches limitations are. If you watch most offenses, it's one on one ball. When you have superior offensive talent, your team plays well. If you have unselfish offensive talent, you tend to get higher numbers on your chart above. Coach though? Meh.

 

[Paterfamilias]

Well, that looks like the NCAA rankings right there.....wait no it doesn't. Fun stat but to me that doesn't equal 'coaching'. Or does that one stat now mean Alford is better than Bill Self? Sean Miller? Roy Williams....etc? Show me defensive stats and that tells me where a coaches limitations are. If you watch most offenses, it's one on one ball. When you have superior offensive talent, your team plays well. If you have unselfish offensive talent, you tend to get higher numbers on your chart above. Coach though? Meh.

You're probably right. Coaching most likely has little, if any, effect on offensive efficiency and turnover issues. What was the story though in 2006 when Iowa was the #1 defensive team in the nation.

Is this UCLA team the most talented team of the past 20 years? They must be since their Effective FG% and Assist-Turnover Ratios are both off the charts for the period. When you consider how much Alford is probably screwing it up, they are quite likely the most talented team in the history of college basketball. It will be interesting to see how quickly these guys turn around their respective NBA teams.

 

[YOTHN]

You're probably right. Coaching most likely has little, if any, effect on offensive efficiency and turnover issues. What was the story though in 2006 when Iowa was the #1 defensive team in the nation.

Is this UCLA team the most talented team of the past 20 years? They must be since their Effective FG% and Assist-Turnover Ratios are both off the charts for the period. When you consider how much Alford is probably screwing it up, they are quite likely the most talented team in the history of college basketball. It will be interesting to see how quickly these guys turn around their respective NBA teams.

The fact that you had to go back to 2006 to find something to fit your argument says everything that needs to be said.

 

[Paterfamilias]

The fact that you had to go back to 2006 to find something to fit your argument says everything that needs to be said.

His last 2 teams at New Mexico ranked #15 and #16 respectively in defensive efficiency... that is only going back to 2012 and 2013.

 

[Paterfamilias]

The fact that you had to go back to 2006 to find something to fit your argument says everything that needs to be said.

Also... I find it ironic that I (an Alford supporter) bring up his #1 defense from 2006 Iowa, only to have you (an Alford detractor) tell me that the Iowa days are ancient history.

You gotta admit that's kind of funny... right?

 

[shooter1977]

There is no way to sugarcoat the Iowa years. Iowa won 1 NCAA tournament game during the Alford era, a 7 vs 10 win over Creighton in Alford's second season, which was all Luke Recker. And they missed the tournament completely five times in eight years.

 

[snarlcakes]

Also... I find it ironic that I (an Alford supporter) bring up his #1 defense from 2006 Iowa, only to have you (an Alford detractor) tell me that the Iowa days are ancient history.

You gotta admit that's kind of funny... right?

Outside of the top 5 or 6 guys Alford is just as good as the rest (I personally would take a chance on Collins before Alford). It's amazing how people who supposedly watch basketball are this clueless. They really think Crean and Alford are similar coaches.

Some comparison between Crean and Alford over the past 6 years...

Crean
-138-69 (67%)
-3 SW 16
-Missed the tourney twice
-Finished AP Top 25 3 times

Alford
-153-57 (73%)
-4 SW 16
-Missed the tourney once
-Finished AP top 25 4 times

*Alford also accomplished all of this while switching jobs, which usually leads to at least 1 or more down seasons. For example, Tom Crean's first 3 seasons.

 

[IUNorth]

Starting to come around a little bit on Alford...a little bit.

Pros
1. In looking at his track record since Iowa...it appears he's evolving and improving as a coach. He recruited very well to Albuquerque and obviously he's cashing in on big time guys in LA. So I don't think he'd have any trouble bringing high major talent to Bloomington. Especially with Indy in our backyard.
2. Further on that front, his numbers at New Mexico and UCLA are better than I would have thought they'd have been.
3. His teams have made 3 out of 4 Sweet 16's. His first two teams weren't overflowing with NBA talent either.
4. The obvious Indiana history and ties.

Cons
1. I think Donovan and Marshall would be much better.
2. The off the court stuff at Iowa and then how he handled them moving forward into New Mexico...very concerning.
3. Iowa, in general. Iowa is probably tough to recruit to, when compared to the rest of the conference. But he sure didn't have much success out there, at all. And that's a B10 school with a decent history of success. Obviously not at IU's level, but Tom Davis had a pretty solid program going out there for quite a while.
4. Brad Stevens...I know, I know, he's in a good spot right now with one of the top basketball jobs in the world...but he's young, and things change quickly in the NBA. All it takes are a couple injuries, a couple whiffs on free agents, misses in the draft, and that all ends very quickly...We thought making a move on Crean was hard with marginal results...wait until Alford wins a couple B10 titles, makes an elite 8...maybe even a final four... Stevens is only 40...I'm still convinced he's THE long term answer at IU. And in 6 or 7 years it'd be nearly impossible to make a move on a moderately successful Steve Alford when Stevens does become in play. And for the PROS I listed above, I'm more than confident that Alford would be fairly successful at IU.

To me, the best answer both immediately and in the longer term, is Donovan. He'd win big at IU. And if he started to fade, at all, he'd be easier to coerce out if Stevens becomes a possibility down the road.

Donovan comes in for a good 6-7 year run...hangs a banner...And Brad comes home as a seasoned 46 year old, ready to coach a college dynasty into his 70's.

But getting back to my original sentence...if it is Alford...I'm more behind that now, than I was a couple weeks ago. We've had, and could do, a lot worse.

 

[JonesIndiana]

First time in Alford's career he took a 3 seed past the first weekend. It was tight until the 13 minute mark.

Last year, UCLA's defense ranked 119th. How bad was that? IU's defense this year ranked 104th. That's right, UCLA's defense was actually worse last year than IU's this year. Hard to imagine, but that's what Ken Pom says. Think about that for a second.

 

[JonesIndiana]

*Alford also accomplished all of this while switching jobs, which usually leads to at least 1 or more down seasons. For example, Tom Crean's first 3 seasons.

BS

Alford took for an Iowa team that went to the NCAA tournament the season prior. Alford took over a UCLA team that was reigning Pac 12 champions. Alford took over a 15-17 New Mexico team that beat #8 Wichita State and had Kansas transfer JR Giddens on it. But he didn't play much due to discipline issues, so UNM fired their coach. Steve walked into a good situation. Give me a break with the sob stories that poor Steve has had it so rough.

Crean took over a Marquette team that had a losing record. Four years later they were in the Final Four. Crean took over an IU team that was complete dumpster fire with 1 scholarship player going into his first game.

Shall we talk about Pierre Pierce? Disgusting. There was a time when IU would not even entertain such a hire. http://www.crimsonquarry.com/2017/3/18/14966490/steve-alfords-pierre-pierce-iowa-sexual-assault

 

[Paterfamilias]

First time in Alford's career he took a 3 seed past the first weekend. It was tight until the 13 minute mark.

Last year, UCLA's defense ranked 119th. How bad was that? IU's defense this year ranked 104th. That's right, UCLA's defense was actually worse last year than IU's this year. Hard to imagine, but that's what Ken Pom says. Think about that for a second.

From 2009-2012 Billy Donovan had 3 teams out of 4 whose defense was ranked outside the top 75 on Kenpom. That didn't mean that Donovan couldn't coach defense.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Outside of the top 5 or 6 guys Alford is just as good as the rest (I personally would take a chance on Collins before Alford). It's amazing how people who supposedly watch basketball are this clueless. They really think Crean and Alford are similar coaches.

Some comparison between Crean and Alford over the past 6 years...

Crean
-138-69 (67%)
-3 SW 16
-Missed the tourney twice
-Finished AP Top 25 3 times

Alford
-153-57 (73%)
-4 SW 16
-Missed the tourney once
-Finished AP top 25 4 times

*Alford also accomplished all of this while switching jobs, which usually leads to at least 1 or more down seasons. For example, Tom Crean's first 3 seasons.

Let's see the numbers for their entire D1 coaching career

 

[IndianaHoops]

Outside of the top 5 or 6 guys Alford is just as good as the rest (I personally would take a chance on Collins before Alford). It's amazing how people who supposedly watch basketball are this clueless. They really think Crean and Alford are similar coaches.

Some comparison between Crean and Alford over the past 6 years...

Crean
-138-69 (67%)
-3 SW 16
-Missed the tourney twice
-Finished AP Top 25 3 times

Alford
-153-57 (73%)
-4 SW 16
-Missed the tourney once
-Finished AP top 25 4 times

*Alford also accomplished all of this while switching jobs, which usually leads to at least 1 or more down seasons. For example, Tom Crean's first 3 seasons.

If IU gets turned down 5 or 6 times.....we probably get Alford.

And that would be the reality of where IU is as a program nationally.

 

[YOTHN]

Outside of the top 5 or 6 guys Alford is just as good as the rest (I personally would take a chance on Collins before Alford). It's amazing how people who supposedly watch basketball are this clueless. They really think Crean and Alford are similar coaches.

Some comparison between Crean and Alford over the past 6 years...

Crean
-138-69 (67%)
-3 SW 16
-Missed the tourney twice
-Finished AP Top 25 3 times

Alford
-153-57 (73%)
-4 SW 16
-Missed the tourney once
-Finished AP top 25 4 times

*Alford also accomplished all of this while switching jobs, which usually leads to at least 1 or more down seasons. For example, Tom Crean's first 3 seasons.

No Alford inherited a UCLA program that wasn't decimated by transfers and dysfunction like never before see at IU. So to compare Creans first 3 seasons to Alfords transformation is not one in the same.

Also, you are comparing Alfords record at a mid-major. I would like to hope his winning percentage and trips to the tourney were higher. Those stats were cherry picked to fit the Alford argument which is very hard to do as you likely learned trying to find the stats.

 

[YOTHN]

If IU gets turned down 5 or 6 times.....we probably get Alford.

And that would be the reality of where IU is as a program nationally.

I agree.

 

[TommyCracker]

My favorite line in regards to Alford is...no matter where you sit on the fence your reasons are probably right.

You can make a very strong case that he's rolling and would absolutely kill it at IU.

You can make a very strong case that he's got a lot of warts, a middling record ( including a 15-17 record just last year, the fourth time in just 70 years UCLA has had one) and could be awful for IU.

Both answers are correct.

 

[YOTHN]

My favorite line in regards to Alford is...no matter where you sit on the fence your reasons are probably right.

You can make a very strong case that he's rolling and would absolutely kill it at IU.

You can make a very strong case that he's got a lot of warts, a middling record ( including a 15-17 record just last year, the fourth time in just 70 years UCLA has had one) and could be awful for IU.

Both answers are correct.

But I feel like the only way you make a strong case is by removing the warts and track record to which you could do the same thing and get the same pro/con list for Tom Crean. The idea is to find a coach with less cons and more of a proven track record to which there are many out there. That I think is why most overwhelmingly are against the hire of Alford.

 

[snarlcakes]

If IU gets turned down 5 or 6 times.....we probably get Alford.

And that would be the reality of where IU is as a program nationally.

I think it would be an indictment of Glass. He needs a home run hire.

 

[snarlcakes]

Let's see the numbers for their entire D1 coaching career

Google is your friend. Have at it. Alford still has a higher winning percentage.

 

[YOTHN]

Google is your friend. Have at it. Alford still has a higher winning percentage.

At SW Missouri State and New Mexico State. I would surely hope he would have a better winning percentage when coaching against those cupcakes.

 

[snarlcakes]

No Alford inherited a UCLA program that wasn't decimated by transfers and dysfunction like never before see at IU. So to compare Creans first 3 seasons to Alfords transformation is not one in the same.

Also, you are comparing Alfords record at a mid-major. I would like to hope his winning percentage and trips to the tourney were higher. Those stats were cherry picked to fit the Alford argument which is very hard to do as you likely learned trying to find the stats.

I cherry picked the stats to make Crean look better. That's why I cut it off at 6 years. I could cherry pick them and choose the last 9 years? I didn't because I was trying to be objective. Also, I don't worry too much about Iowa because it was a decade ago and Alford has shown over the past 10 years he is a much better coach since then.

 

[burncycle911]

I'm against Alford if we can't get Donovan. I'll be supportive if he ends up coming here.

 

[snarlcakes]

At SW Missouri State and New Mexico State. I would surely hope he would have a better winning percentage when coaching against those cupcakes.

He coached at New Mexico. Alford winning percentage there was the highest of all time and much higher than the school average, which is what is important when you are trying to evaluate mid major coaches.

 

[T.M.P.]

Here are the Assist-Turnover numbers for this weekends 2-0 Sweet 16 teams. The poorly coached Bruins ended up with over a 5 to 1 ratio, while only Purdue and Michigan managed a 2 to 1 ratio. Just imagine if UCLA had a decent coach.

46-9 UCLA (34-7 not by Lonzo Ball)
43-20 Purdue
35-24 Xavier
33-20 S. Carolina
33-27 UNC
31-19 Kansas
31-22 Butler
31-24 Baylor
31-25 W,Virginia
30-10 Michigan
28-22 Wisconsin
26-25 Florida
24-24 Oregon
23-20 Kentucky
18-16 Arizona
18-23 Gonzaga

Assists are a byproduct of team philosophy* and are a poor indicator of efficiency but you already know that.

*which is why the formula for TO% are per possession but Ast% are per team total.

 

[snarlcakes]

BS

Alford took for an Iowa team that went to the NCAA tournament the season prior. Alford took over a UCLA team that was reigning Pac 12 champions. Alford took over a 15-17 New Mexico team that beat #8 Wichita State and had Kansas transfer JR Giddens on it. But he didn't play much due to discipline issues, so UNM fired their coach. Steve walked into a good situation. Give me a break with the sob stories that poor Steve has had it so rough.

Crean took over a Marquette team that had a losing record. Four years later they were in the Final Four. Crean took over an IU team that was complete dumpster fire with 1 scholarship player going into his first game.

Shall we talk about Pierre Pierce? Disgusting. There was a time when IU would not even entertain such a hire. http://www.crimsonquarry.com/2017/3/18/14966490/steve-alfords-pierre-pierce-iowa-sexual-assault

Once again you rebuttal nothing that I write and go back to 15 years ago when people thought Crean could coach.

Also, I have read about the Pierce incident numerous times and don't have any issues with IU hiring Alford, besides other candidates being better coaches. Alford was wrong for backing his player and admitted he was wrong. I believe in 2nd chances.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

No Alford inherited a UCLA program that wasn't decimated by transfers and dysfunction like never before see at IU. So to compare Creans first 3 seasons to Alfords transformation is not one in the same.

Also, you are comparing Alfords record at a mid-major. I would like to hope his winning percentage and trips to the tourney were higher. Those stats were cherry picked to fit the Alford argument which is very hard to do as you likely learned trying to find the stats.

Neither of their overall winning percentages is great. As a head coach Crean is 60% for his career and Alford is 66% for his. On any grading scale that's a D- and a D. Crean has 3 Sweet 16s and a FF. Alford has 4 Sweet 16s...and one of them was literally yesterday.

 

[Paterfamilias]

Assists are a byproduct of team philosophy* and are a poor indicator of efficiency but you already know that.

*which is why the formula for TO% are per possession but Ast% are per team total.

True, but team philosophy implies coaching. Regardless of the usefulness of the stat it's impressive to have a shot at putting up the best assist-turnover ratio in 20 years. They also rank like 8th or something in TO% which is a number a Crean team could only dream of.

 

[Paterfamilias]

Assists are a byproduct of team philosophy* and are a poor indicator of efficiency but you already know that.

*which is why the formula for TO% are per possession but Ast% are per team total.

Here's something that you might find interesting that others wouldn't. Last year they used Pick & Roll on 28.8% of offensive plays. This year they were down to around 6% at the time I read the article. It was a decision based on personnel and more similar to what they were doing in 2014.

Alford understands the game enough to make changes based on personnel, whereas some coaches try to change the personnel to fit a system, or only recruit players that fit their system. Alford is a basketball coach rather than a systematic coach. Donovan is the same, so I would be fine with him at IU. I think Bennett might be the best coach, but too systematic for my taste.

 

[T.M.P.]

True, but team philosophy implies coaching. Regardless of the usefulness of the stat it's impressive to have a shot at putting up the best assist-turnover ratio in 20 years. They also rank like 8th or something in TO% which is a number a Crean team could only dream of.

They're a great passing team that much is evident. And it's Leaf and Welsh as much as Ball.

 

[Paterfamilias]

They're a great passing team that much is evident. And it's Leaf and Welsh as much as Ball.

Check out these numbers. I know you look at this kind of stuff as much as I do. What's amazing is that Hamilton has earned the nickname "Yippie Hamilton" on the message boards because he can be so untrustworthy with the ball. Kid's got a 14.7% TO% and gets ribbing for having the yips. Can you imagine if they had to watch what we've had to watch.

This is Alford's 6th team in the last dozen or so years that I've really enjoyed watching play and the teams have been of every type

Player- (Ass%-TO%)-usage
Ball- (31.5-18.2) 19.1
Alford- (11.7-5.6) 18.7
Leaf- (12.3-9.9) 21.2
Welsh- (6.4-4.9) 17.7
Holiday- (23.4-20) 22.7
Hamilton- (12.8-14.7) 22.4

 

[IU Scott]

My favorite line in regards to Alford is...no matter where you sit on the fence your reasons are probably right.

You can make a very strong case that he's rolling and would absolutely kill it at IU.

You can make a very strong case that he's got a lot of warts, a middling record ( including a 15-17 record just last year, the fourth time in just 70 years UCLA has had one) and could be awful for IU.

Both answers are correct.

Like I have said he is not my top pick but if they do hire him I will back the hire until he gives us a reason not to.

 

[jsig]

Yeh. Leaf is amazing how he works to get open when playing off the ball and Welsh does not miss an open 10-15 foot jump shot.

Not wanting alford is one thing but trying to claim Crean is a better coach as an argument baffles me. The lack of discipline of Crean's teams is so evident if you are watching any of the tourney teams. The TO's and poor shot selections was just atrocious. Yogi looks like a better NBA player as a rookie playing for Carlisle than he ever did as a college player for Crean.

I see nothing wrong with hiring Alford except for the 8 or 9 coaches I'd prefer ahead of him. I wonder if Alford did come, might he now have a connection to some of that California talent. How do the California HS and AAU coaches view him. I think it would be a pretty easy sell considering Television money and earlier TV time slots. I've watched a lot of UCLA since he went there then switched from Uverse to Direct TV and lost the Pac 12 Network. It was disappointing not being able to watch them as much this season with Leaf and Ball on the team.

 

[Hoosier_Phenom]

What's was the assist/turnover ratio last year for UCLA? What was IU's last year?

You sure that top 3 NBA Draft pick doesn't have something to do with that?

It kills me how everyone on here thinks Ball is the best basketball player to ever play the game. I guess every game UCLA wins is because of Ball. If every player on UCLA fouled out except Ball it's ok we still have Ball to win with. This is why I'm glad fans don't have any say in who the next coach will be. I also listened to sports talk on the radio and they were talking about the UCLA game and brought up the fact that Alford made a defensive adjustment that forced Cincy to take shots they didn't want to take. I know the coaches on this forum will say it wasn't Alford it was Ball.

 

[Paterfamilias]

It kills me how everyone on here thinks Ball is the best basketball player to ever play the game. I guess every game UCLA wins is because of Ball. If every player on UCLA fouled out except Ball it's ok we still have Ball to win with. This is why I'm glad fans don't have any say in who the next coach will be. I also listened to sports talk on the radio and they were talking about the UCLA game and brought up the fact that Alford made a defensive adjustment that forced Cincy to take shots they didn't want to take. I know the coaches on this forum will say it wasn't Alford it was Ball.

Alford has been known to make great halftime adjustments for a long time. Kenpom did an interesting study a couple of years ago that will sound convoluted if I try to explain it, so I'll post the link for you to look at. http://kenpom.com/blog/whos-the-best-ingame-coach/

In the first half yesterday, Cronin was isolating Leaf defensively to try to get him in foul trouble and it worked. In the second half, UCLA's guards were digging on the isolation creating turnovers and bad shots which ignited the run. Leaf finished the game with just the 3 fouls. Adjustments don't have to be complicated they just have to be executed.