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Garland: Saudi Immunity for Khashoggi Murder

CO. Hoosier

CO. Hoosier

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The United States is arguing in a civil wrongful death case brought by a private US citizen against the Saudi’s that the defendant has immunity.

This is wrong.

Sovereign Immunity generally attaches to acts with in the scope of duties. Murder isn’t one of those.

The United States shouldn’t have a dog in this fight. If immunity indeed exists, the Saudis should argue that, not our DOJ.

www.reuters.com

Biden administration says Saudi prince has immunity in Khashoggi killing lawsuit

The Biden administration ruled on Thursday that Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has immunity from a lawsuit over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, drawing immediate condemnation from the slain journalist's former fiancee.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
The United States is arguing in a civil wrongful death case brought by a private US citizen against the Saudi’s that the defendant has immunity.

This is wrong.

Sovereign Immunity generally attaches to acts with in the scope of duties. Murder isn’t one of those.

The United States shouldn’t have a dog in this fight. If immunity indeed exists, the Saudis should argue that, not our DOJ.

www.reuters.com

Biden administration says Saudi prince has immunity in Khashoggi killing lawsuit

The Biden administration ruled on Thursday that Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has immunity from a lawsuit over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, drawing immediate condemnation from the slain journalist's former fiancee.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
Click to expand...
It’s only wrong if goat says it’s wrong.
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
The United States is arguing in a civil wrongful death case brought by a private US citizen against the Saudi’s that the defendant has immunity.

This is wrong.

Sovereign Immunity generally attaches to acts with in the scope of duties. Murder isn’t one of those.

The United States shouldn’t have a dog in this fight. If immunity indeed exists, the Saudis should argue that, not our DOJ.

www.reuters.com

Biden administration says Saudi prince has immunity in Khashoggi killing lawsuit

The Biden administration ruled on Thursday that Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has immunity from a lawsuit over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, drawing immediate condemnation from the slain journalist's former fiancee.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
Click to expand...
The govt. does have a dog in the fight, though.

It affects foreign policy, energy policy, etc. not to mention the CIA and executive branch's own ability to go kill people around the world in the name of U.S. interests.

I hope the family can get some kind of justice, though.
 
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BradStevens said:
The govt. does have a dog in the fight, though.

It affects foreign policy, energy policy, etc. not to mention the CIA and executive branch's own ability to go kill people around the world in the name of U.S. interests.

I hope the family can get some kind of justice, though.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it should matter what interests are involved. We are talking about a claim of a private citizen. That claim is s property right and the government is trying to take it. As I said, if there is immunity, let the Saudis make the case.
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
The United States is arguing in a civil wrongful death case brought by a private US citizen against the Saudi’s that the defendant has immunity.

This is wrong.
Click to expand...

Wasn't this also the case with lawsuits against the Saudis after 9-11?
 
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UncleMark said:
Wasn't this also the case with lawsuits against the Saudis after 9-11?
Click to expand...
In fact, the DOJ has made this argument many, many times, as a matter of course. It's a settled matter of customary law that heads of state, heads of government, and foreign ministers enjoy immunity in foreign courts solely on account of their position within the state architecture. U.S. courts have long ruled that 1) this customary law applies to U.S. courts, and 2) the President has the sole power of determination as to who is recognized as the officials who enjoy said immunity. Because Biden recognizes MBS as the head of government of Saudi Arabia, he enjoys absolute immunity in U.S. courts so long as he holds that position.

OP argues that this is somehow out of bounds, but it isn't. It's a fairly common filing that happens any time someone tries to sue a foreign official employed in one of the relevant roles.

Edit to add: This is exactly why MBS was named Prime Minister a couple of months ago. Immunity was not recognized as extending to heirs of a monarch, so MBS got himself a title that did come with immunity.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
In fact, the DOJ has made this argument many, many times, as a matter of course. It's a settled matter of customary law that heads of state, heads of government, and foreign ministers enjoy immunity in foreign courts solely on account of their position within the state architecture. U.S. courts have long ruled that 1) this customary law applies to U.S. courts, and 2) the President has the sole power of determination as to who is recognized as the officials who enjoy said immunity. Because Biden recognizes MBS as the head of government of Saudi Arabia, he enjoys absolute immunity in U.S. courts so long as he holds that position.

OP argues that this is somehow out of bounds, but it isn't. It's a fairly common filing that happens any time someone tries to sue a foreign official employed in one of the relevant roles.

Edit to add: This is exactly why MBS was named Prime Minister a couple of months ago. Immunity was not recognized as extending to heirs of a monarch, so MBS got himself a title that did come with immunity.
Click to expand...

What is “customary law”? This kind of immunity isn’t codified any where. It is a matter of comity. So the question remains why did Biden grant immunity

Oh, Too bad you didn’t represent Manuel Noriega. Maybe you could have gotten him immunity.
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
The United States is arguing in a civil wrongful death case brought by a private US citizen against the Saudi’s that the defendant has immunity.

This is wrong.

Sovereign Immunity generally attaches to acts with in the scope of duties. Murder isn’t one of those.

The United States shouldn’t have a dog in this fight. If immunity indeed exists, the Saudis should argue that, not our DOJ.

www.reuters.com

Biden administration says Saudi prince has immunity in Khashoggi killing lawsuit

The Biden administration ruled on Thursday that Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has immunity from a lawsuit over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, drawing immediate condemnation from the slain journalist's former fiancee.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
Click to expand...
Yes, just like we let the Bin Laden family fly home after 9/11 when the rest of the US had their airspace shut down.

Fock the Saudi royal family. They are not our allies.
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
What is customary law? Is this some kind of joke?
Click to expand...
Not at all. We studied common law, constitutional law, statutory law. Customary law is a new one for me. I obviously know what various customs are, but to my knowledge, none are law such that the DOJ would advocate about it.
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
OP argues that this is somehow out of bounds, but it isn't. It's a fairly common filing that happens any time someone tries to sue a foreign official employed in one of the relevant roles.
Click to expand...

I wasn't here in the 9-11 times (if there even was a here then). I'd be curious to hear the objections made by COH to the GWB policy at the time.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
Not at all. We studied common law, constitutional law, statutory law. Customary law is a new one for me. I obviously know what various customs are, but to my knowledge, none are law such that the DOJ would advocate about it.
Click to expand...
ruwanthikagunaratne.wordpress.com

Customary International Law as a Source of Law

Note: This blog post maybe outdated. An Introduction to Sources of Law Article 38 (1) of the Statute of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) is considered as an authoritative statement on sour…
ruwanthikagunaratne.wordpress.com ruwanthikagunaratne.wordpress.com
 
Does this mean I should reconsider suing Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman in my local Small Claims Court over the part Saudi Arabia is playing in the high cost of my gasoline ?
 
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hoot1 said:
Does this mean I should reconsider suing Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman in my local Small Claims Court over the part Saudi Arabia is playing in the high cost of my gasoline ?
Click to expand...
According to Biden and his minions Putin is the one to sue.
 
DrHoops said:
Yes, just like we let the Bin Laden family fly home after 9/11 when the rest of the US had their airspace shut down.

Fock the Saudi royal family. They are not our allies.
Click to expand...
Before you get all verklempt about the Khashoggi killing, consider that he an Osama bin Laden were childhood buddies who joined the Muslim Brotherhood together and K was OBL's 'embedded journalist' in Afghanistan.

And guess who the Muslim Brotherhood wanted to overthrow - the Saudi kingdom. This is how things are done in this part of the world.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Jamal Khashoggi's close friendship with Osama bin Laden

'I just fell apart crying heartbreak to you, Abu Abdullah,' murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi tweeted hours after Osama bin Laden was confirmed dead in May 2011.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

www.jns.org

The whitewashing of Jamal Khashoggi, friend of Osama bin Laden

His relationship with Osama bin Laden predates his days as an “embedded reporter” in Afghanistan and endured after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan in 1989.
www.jns.org www.jns.org
 
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hoot1 said:
STOLL, how about suing Putin over the increased cost of breakfast cereal given the large share of grain products which normally come from Ukraine ?
Click to expand...
He’s the cause of all Bidenflation. Sue him for all of it.

Get two cases going. Sue Chyna for Covid.
 
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hoot1 said:
Does this mean I should reconsider suing Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman in my local Small Claims Court over the part Saudi Arabia is playing in the high cost of my gasoline ?
Click to expand...
Antitrust class actions on this have been attempted in the past. They typically are defeated by these sovereign immunity claims.
 
BradStevens said:
ruwanthikagunaratne.wordpress.com

Customary International Law as a Source of Law

Note: This blog post maybe outdated. An Introduction to Sources of Law Article 38 (1) of the Statute of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) is considered as an authoritative statement on sour…
ruwanthikagunaratne.wordpress.com ruwanthikagunaratne.wordpress.com
Click to expand...
Geeze Louise . . . .Did you read that?

First question at oral argument:

Mr Bradstevens, can you or your cleak, Mr Happygoat, cite any authority which binds this court to grant immunity in a private wrongful death civil action?

Second Question: Why is the Department of Justice appearing and whom do you represent?
 
Fh36ygqWIAARDai
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
It's a basic fundamental aspect of international law. Any lawyer who says he doesn't know what it is is either lying, or a very unqualified lawyer.
Click to expand...
As a layman who took a business law class (almost makes me an expert), I've never heard of 'customary' law. I've heard of common law.

I mean, does it mean just because it's 'customary' that it's legal? Can you explain it further? Without a link - just in plain English so one of the unwashed like me can understand it?
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
Fh36ygqWIAARDai
Click to expand...
2 things:

1) Would WaPo have been as outraged if K wasn't one of their employees, considering the guy was a confidant and boyhood friend of Osama bin Laden. And that he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood?

2) Will the Saudis now turn on the oil spigot, now that Biden has played ball?
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
Geeze Louise . . . .Did you read that?

First question at oral argument:

Mr Bradstevens, can you or your cleak, Mr Happygoat, cite any authority which binds this court to grant immunity in a private wrongful death civil action?

Second Question: Why is the Department of Justice appearing and whom do you represent?
Click to expand...
I don't have access to the briefs, but from the article you linked:

"The Royal Order leaves no doubt that the Crown Prince is entitled to status-based immunity," lawyers for the prince said in an Oct. 3 petition requesting a federal district court in Washington dismiss the case, citing other cases where the United States has recognised immunity for a foreign head of state.

I'm assuming I'd cite those cases.

As for who the DoJ is representing and why, I answered that in post # 3. This suit directly impinges on U.S. foreign policy.
 
BradStevens said:
I don't have access to the briefs, but from the article you linked:

"The Royal Order leaves no doubt that the Crown Prince is entitled to status-based immunity," lawyers for the prince said in an Oct. 3 petition requesting a federal district court in Washington dismiss the case, citing other cases where the United States has recognised immunity for a foreign head of state.

I'm assuming I'd cite those cases.

As for who the DoJ is representing and why, I answered that in post # 3. This suit directly impinges on U.S. foreign policy.
Click to expand...
How do you explain Noriega?

How does a civil wrongful death case affect foreign policy?
 
DANC said:
As a layman who took a business law class (almost makes me an expert), I've never heard of 'customary' law. I've heard of common law.

I mean, does it mean just because it's 'customary' that it's legal? Can you explain it further? Without a link - just in plain English so one of the unwashed like me can understand it?
Click to expand...
You're not far off. I'm out and about but I'll give you a proper response when I get home.

I'm not surprised you've never heard of it. Especially in business law. But any lawyer probably took at least one international law class, and knows what it is. You learn about it in chapter one.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
In fact, the DOJ has made this argument many, many times, as a matter of course. It's a settled matter of customary law that heads of state, heads of government, and foreign ministers enjoy immunity in foreign courts solely on account of their position within the state architecture. U.S. courts have long ruled that 1) this customary law applies to U.S. courts, and 2) the President has the sole power of determination as to who is recognized as the officials who enjoy said immunity. Because Biden recognizes MBS as the head of government of Saudi Arabia, he enjoys absolute immunity in U.S. courts so long as he holds that position.

OP argues that this is somehow out of bounds, but it isn't. It's a fairly common filing that happens any time someone tries to sue a foreign official employed in one of the relevant roles.

Edit to add: This is exactly why MBS was named Prime Minister a couple of months ago. Immunity was not recognized as extending to heirs of a monarch, so MBS got himself a title that did come with immunity.
Click to expand...
We should cut any military aid they get from us and tell them to take a hike.
 
DANC said:
2 things:

1) Would WaPo have been as outraged if K wasn't one of their employees, considering the guy was a confidant and boyhood friend of Osama bin Laden. And that he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood?

2) Will the Saudis now turn on the oil spigot, now that Biden has played ball?
Click to expand...
Pretty simple. Joe Needs oil, not produced by American workers, Joe can not admit that he needs oil, if oil just magically appears, he takes credit for it, while his American oil union members are setting at home, not working. And it's Trumps fault that should have another special executioner appointed. .. Because Joe needs oil, but can't admit it.
 
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Joe_Hoopsier said:
Pretty simple. Joe Needs oil, not produced by American workers, Joe can not admit that he needs oil, if oil just magically appears, he takes credit for it, while his American oil union members are setting at home, not working. And it's Trumps fault that should have another special executioner appointed. .. Because Joe needs oil, but can't admit it.
Click to expand...
We need American Oil and dems are killing workers by not allowing it here. Joe spouts off they have areas to drill but doesn't understand the oil industry and Joe is too far left now to do that. I hope Desantis runs and beats Trump as he wouldn't do this to American workers.
 
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A US intelligence community report into Khashoggi's murder published in February 2021 as Biden took office said bin Salman approved the operation to capture or kill the journalist which ended with his murder and dismemberment.

Bin Salman denied the allegations and sought immunity from prosecution, claiming that his various government and royal positions gave him immunity and put him outside the US courts' jurisdiction.

But as Crown Prince, bin Salman was not entitled to sovereign immunity which would normally just include a head of state, head of government or foreign minister, none of which bin Salman was.

Then, just a few days before the Biden administration was supposed to weigh in last month on the question of immunity, bin Salman was promoted to prime minister by his father, King Salman, who would normally hold that position.

That was a "ploy" to secure so-called head of state immunity, DAWN's Whitson said, after which the Justice Department asked for a delay.

Now that bin Salman is prime minister, "the government ought to recommend that he's entitled to immunity" said law professor William Dodge at the University of California Davis Law School, who had previously written that the prince wasn't entitled to immunity.

"It's almost automatic," Dodge said, "I think that's why he was appointed prime minister is to get out of this."
The State Department was not required to make a determination of immunity but was invited to do so by the court. A spokesperson said that their request that bin Salman be granted immunity is based on longstanding common and international law, rather than a reflection of current diplomatic ties or efforts.

"The United States has consistently, and across administrations, applied these principles to heads of state, heads of government and foreign ministers while they are in office," State Department deputy spokesperson Vedant Patel told reporters Friday. "This is an unbroken practice, and it is also something that we expect others to affront to the United States as well."

www.weny.com

US determines Saudi Crown Prince is immune in case brought by Jamal Khashoggi's fiancée

By Alex Marquardt, CNN
www.weny.com www.weny.com
 
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Joe_Hoopsier said:
There will be oil on Joe's hands...

This is the normalcy in politics that people just voted for. Ain't it great, whew... Normal accepted corruption again. I mean, it was just one journalist. It's for the greater good, right?
Click to expand...
Ummm remember when Jared Helped whitewash this? And then ended up with two billion dollars? Trying to remember who was in office when it happened?
 
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