I'll happily suck it up, if they produce something worth sucking up.
I guess I just don't see any downside to this exercise. But I'm content to wait and see what they actually do before passing any judgment.
Gaetz for AG
- Thread starter dbmhoosier
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I'll happily suck it up, if they produce something worth sucking up.
I guess I just don't see any downside to this exercise. But I'm content to wait and see what they actually do before passing any judgment.
Gaetz was about to be booted from the House. Trump gave him cover to quit on his own.
It's the federal bureaucracies that push back on executive prerogatives.
You need look no further for their existence and what they do than the articles written pushing back on the Project 2025 goal of bringing in 10k Trump loyalists to work in the executive branch.
Musk isnt doing this for free. What's his fee? That seems like an obvious downside for an exercise that will result in a "report" that goes nowhere at best.
I thought my side was the one that supposed to waste money like this?
Yeah, so long as Congress holds the purse strings, they'll always be the stumbling block.And 15 years before that:
Reinventing Government -- Two Decades Later
A look back at Al Gore's efforts to bring private-sector efficiency into a more results-oriented federal space.www.govexec.com
But one thing I'll acknowledge about Trump is that, in both good ways and bad, he's obviously cut from a very different cloth than his predecessors. The Bowles-Simpson Commission was such a cliche of a DC undertaking. Put together a blue-ribbon commission consisting of well-known names...they produce a document consisting of recommendations that get summarily ignored by the people and institutions that matter.
Why are you so sure about that? What the hell would a fee mean to him? Or even Vivek, who isn't anywhere near as wealthy as Musk, but isn't exactly a pauper
Rich people don't typically do things for free. At least things of this size. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm betting they are both getting paid somehow. Maybe not directly with cash but somehow.
"We found that the government is spending too much on gasoline. So every government employee is now required to buy a Tesla. We will save billions." -Elon Musk
I'm not a fan of presidents stocking bureaucracies with loyalists. But, in fairness, we probably ought to expect that to happen if the regular people who work in bureaucracies use those perches as a means of obstructing an administration's policies. It's Newton's Third Law of Motion, put into a political context.
Sunny? It's the greatest sitcom that's ever existed. Longest running too. Still going strong.
Musk and Vivek are both doing this for free. Confirmed
Did the Deep State exist under previous administrations or does it just pop out when Trump is POTUS?
Fine with that. Let them have at it. But as crazy pointed out. They will probably spend about 1 day looking at it. With no background.
Who's funding this group and how much staff do they have? As it's just a made up commission with no Congressional mandate or support. They'll need an army to actually do a deep dive across the the bureaucracy and neither have spent a day in the Fed govt. Hell does Vivek even know have security clearance? Suppose Elon does with the SpaceX stuff
Then Elon has all these conflicts that I guess will just be ignored. It's a joke.
I think twenty's point (and the one I would make) is this:
There is a lost opportunity cost here. While everyone is focused on this exercise, with the big names attached, you lose time and focus on the big things that will really make a difference. Also, these govt efficiency projects occur every so often in a misguided attempt to get a free lunch--to somehow create a material reduction in fed spending without touching our sacred cows.
In the meantime, the sacred cows continue to fatten, become more entrenched, and people are lulled into a false sense of confidence we can fix the problem with these projects. I'd suggest we need someone to play the long game, here, with the electorate--that is, it would be great if somoene trustworthy would spend the next four years talking about our actuarial problems, the costs of healthcare for the elderly, etc. and prime the pump. Clinton and Obama tried some of this, but I think they did it too quickly, without priming the pump--we need to educate the populace (if we are still assuming that kind of thing works or is possible--I'm skeptical).
I find this similar (but not exactly so) to the people I talk to in K-12 education, who think they can spend all their time, effort, and political capital on anti-racism efforts in high schools that make minorities feel better about their academic deficiencies and try to push them into honors and AP classes. The smart ones will admit that the real effort needs to be made at ages 0-10, but that they "have to do something" and this is the project they are currently doing. When you push back and tell them there is a cost to their "doing something"--that it isn't a free lunch--they just throw up their hands and say "how could it hurt?"
I'm a bit skeptical about "this size" amounting to all that much -- at least in terms of hours directly invested by Musk and Ramaswamy.
And, obviously, no explicit funding exists for it at this point. We don't have any clue as to any staffing, etc. So let's just see where it goes.
It's existed for as long as you've had govt bureaucracies. Not just here, but in other nations and governments as well. China's were famous for millennia. Japan's military Deep State was making the decisions in WW 2; it wasn't the emperor.
The notion that a guy like Gaetz--who might legitimately want to root it out--is hilarious. I don't think he's smart enough or knowledgeable enough to do so without severely damaging the institution.
20 years ago the DOD under Bush attempted to put a performance based pay system in place for Feds. It took years to develop... They started transitioning MGMT positions into the system, with the the idea that non MGMT positions would follow.. Then it was eventually scrapped and everyone returned to the GS schedule. That's the reality of reforming the federal govt. Only way it can be done is via the purse and very gradual adjustments over time.
You get a new generation of politicos in that brashly talk the same game then run into the reality that actual reform is very difficult, time consuming and requires a ton of political capital and making difficult and unpopular decisions. Not guarantees from hacks about not taxing tips or overtime or whatever other bullshit we've heard this year.
I am completely fine with this. I've been calling for something like this for years. In fact I suggested something very similar to this a couple years ago on this board and was laughed at by the very same people lauding it now.
I just think it's funny that the "less spending and less government folks" are now for potentially more spending and for sure more government. That's all.
Sure, whatever. They aren’t being paid for their work at DOGE.
This is 90’s inside the box thinking. You are right in saying that approach won’t solve many problems.
The issue is not simply cost cutting, it’s more about changing paradigms and fiefdoms to have government be more effective and efficient.
Musk cut the cost of putting a kilo of payload into orbit from about $65k for the shuttle to about $200 total for the Falcon 9. He revolutionized rocketry. There are also reasons why Tesla makes a ton of money per vehicle sold while Ford loses a greater amoiunt per vehicle. Starlink is reliable, fast, and cheap for rural internet, yet the government program for the same thing is mired in bureaucracy with billions down the drain.
Turn musk loose on the federal government and see where it goes.
I don't agree with the premise that if we're doing A, we're precluding ourselves from doing B -- when B is what matters -- because we're confusing A with B.
"A" in this instance is paring discretionary spending, red tape, and inefficiency.
"B" in this instance is putting our non-discretionary spending (ie, entitlements) on a sustainable footing.
First of all, as I said above, I fully agree that the fiscal problem is in B, not A. But that doesn't mean A isn't also a real problem. I disagree with twenty's suggestion that it's as lean as it could be. And, besides, there's more to gain by bringing efficiencies to government than direct cost savings. Government efficiencies ought to bring material benefit to the private sector as well. Time is money.
Second, while it hasn't gotten a great deal of press attention, there has been a small bipartisan working group of Senators who are looking at entitlement reforms. And that's a good thing, hopefully it will bear fruit. The fact that Trump and Elon are doing this does not preclude those Senators from continuing to do that, does it?
Let's assume that it does get an appropriation.
Are you saying that whatever that appropriation is would end up being more than what they're able to carve out? Maybe...but that will almost certainly come down to Congress and how they approach their proscriptions.
What about their staff? What about the offices they will need for this?(I'm betting Trump properties will have nice deal for them on some space". What about the other overhead for running something like this? Musk is paying for all of that?
Excellent point. The deep state is unnoticeable when deep state administrations (with their legions of influence peddlers, lobbyists, and special interests) are in charge.
This is true -- and it's also astounding. In fact, the cost reductions have sharply accelerated just over the past several years. Even if you compare current costs to SpaceX's earlier flights.
It's a very different beast than cutting government spending, though. Still, you're right that Musk seems obsessed with cost efficiencies in his private enterprises.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that will go nowhere. I've had this same discussion a million times on here. The same people that bitch about waste, fraud and abuse also bitch about red tape.
When it comes to govt you can't have it both ways. The rural internet thing is a great example. Actually none of that money has been spent. So no, there aren't billions of dollars down the drain. It's money that was appropriated, but nothing as yet happened with it.
Complain about the red tape that's stopped it from being executed, sure. But you can't have it both ways.
Maybe.
We'll see how it goes. I'm as skeptical as you are -- but I fully welcome the effort.
It will have to unless the belief is Musk and Vivek are doing this all by themselves, using their own facilities, and spending their own money on overhead stuff.
Coming from someone who hates the govt. meddling in electric vehicles, I'm not sure Musk's Tesla venture is one you'd like to refer to:
Tesla has received billions of dollars in government subsidies since 2009, including:
- Loans
In 2010, the U.S. Department of Energy provided Tesla with a $465 million loan to help build its first major manufacturing facility in Fremont, California.
- Tax credits
Tesla customers who meet federal requirements may be eligible for a tax credit of up to $7,500 when purchasing a new Tesla.
- Regulatory credits
Tesla has sold "regulatory credits" to other carmakers for almost $9 billion since 2018. These credits are awarded to manufacturers who meet increasingly strict emissions rules.
- Grants and rebates
Nevada has provided Tesla with $1.6 billion in grants and tax rebates from 2013 to 2023.
- Research and development
Tesla received more than $1.6 billion in research and development and federal renewable energy tax credits in 2023.
I don’t think it’s an obsession at all. Doing big things with little effort is a normal for those who can accomplish big things without the burdens of focus groups, committees, research studies, and all the rest of bureaucratic comforts.
That works if your are a CEO. Unless we're turning the Presidency into a dictatorship for real, doesn't fly in our form of govt which can only operate via broad consensus
I’m going to push back a bit here, as there’s a lot of testosterone-fueled cynicism running rampant in this zone. I’m a world-class cynic and pushing the same boulder up the same damn mountain gets tiring after decades and centuries. And government is the damn mountain.
But it’s time for Cignettism. He said, fvck it, we’re going to kick ass and take names. If not now, when? If not a bunch of entrenched, long-term DC names, who?
Fix Social Security and Medicare. Raise the cap. All those years I got that nice bump midway through the year when the tax fell off. Why was that? Has anybody ever questioned why there is a cap? (I won’t even get into letting me control and invest what I, or anyone else, paid in.)
Agencies, departments and bureaucrats need to justify their existence and their jobs. As Crazed said, bring Mitch Daniels in. Fire all the IGs and others involved in auditing and efficiency reviews. They’re part of the problem and as entrenched as all the other Assistants to The Assistant to the Sub-Director of The High-Director of Office Supplies. A million here, a billion there, and soon you’re talking real money.
Give Elon and Vivek the power to dig into everything. Make Curt Cignetti proud.
I don't think you're giving enough credit to human psychology and the history of how our system works, and instead focused on just logical possibilities. Finite political capital is a thing. So is finite ability to focus on projects or "big" changes. etc. There's a reason that even private firms drift and get off track when they try to do too many different ventures at once.
I think this is one of the best lessons of historical conservatism, by the way.
As for your last question, it most certainly does. Senators want to get re-elected. If there is a false promise of a solution out there, highly publicized, they will kick the can down the road and say "let's wait to see what the grand geniuses Musk and Vivek say to do. I've heard they can do solve it-Trump says so!-so let's not discuss the third rail when we don't have to."
Gaetz will revisit the actions of the 'Congressional Office of Compliance ' and the $Millions of taxpayer funds used as a hush money to cover up misdeeds by elected officials in the US Congress for decades....
**** around and find out!
Nothing can stop what's coming...
I'm not even going to read the rest of your post after your use of Cignettism.
You win. Whatever argument you made, I'm with you. Let's Fvcking Goooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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