On race and racism in https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kyle-korver-utah-jazz-nba
Excellent essay by Kyle Korver
- Thread starter zeke4ahs
- Start date
His repeated comments that "know that I believe this" were interesting. That's a meaningful step in this world even though I'm sure it doesn't seem like it.
I think peoples' reaction that "you just now figured this out?" were wrong-headed, but to each his own.
I don't know that he accomplished anything, but I do think it's interesting.
I thought it was pretty brave to admit what his original thoughts were....like why was he out and he must have done something wrong. It must be pretty wearing to hear these kinds of things yelled at your teammates too.
No, I agree. I thought it was thoughtful no matter your beliefs. That's why I thought criticism of it was wrong-headed.
I don't quibble at all with his effort.
I just don't know the answer and whether it matters if it's pointless to try to reach everybody and if it's better to find a more receptive audience.
I don't know if I agree with his guilt or responsibility conclusion, but it sure has me pondering the whole idea.
Just like Korber at one time before he wrote the essay, I would shrug off being either guilty or responsible for whatever happens to people of color. However, unlike Korber, I may not take his feeling of responsibility to the extent he seems willing to go.
I pretty much feel comfortable with the way I deal with my circle of friends of color, and I just leave it at that. Korber seems prepared to take his responsibility into a full fledged cause. More power to him.
Just like Korber at one time before he wrote the essay, I would shrug off being either guilty or responsible for whatever happens to people of color. However, unlike Korber, I may not take his feeling of responsibility to the extent he seems willing to go.
I pretty much feel comfortable with the way I deal with my circle of friends of color, and I just leave it at that. Korber seems prepared to take his responsibility into a full fledged cause. More power to him.
Yeah, you pretty much made one of Korver's main points for him right there. Listen? Nah, too much effort.
I don’t understand this:
But in many ways the more dangerous form of racism isn’t that loud and stupid kind. It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view. It’s the person who does and says all the “right” things in public: They’re perfectly friendly when they meet a person of color. They’re very polite. But in private? Well….. they sort of wish that everyone would stop making everything “about race” all the time.
It’s the kind of racism that can seem almost invisible — which is one of the main reasons why it’s allowed to persist.
Does Korver really describe racism here? If it’s invisible as he suggests, I don’t think it can be racism. Racism is a behavior, not a hidden invisible thought.It’s the kind of racism that can seem almost invisible — which is one of the main reasons why it’s allowed to persist.
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And this is the response I was expecting to see in this thread eventually. Didn't know it would be CO., but I knew it would be from someone. Our forum's many not-racists can't let this kind of thing go without commenting eventually.
Well I expected a condescending post from somebody, and I had a pretty good idea that it would be by you.
Now that we have the bullshit out of the way, do you have anything important to say about invisible racism?
Not to you, I don't. I just find it funny that when I read those exact two paragraphs you quoted, I said to myself, "Yeah, this is going to trigger the WC."
Okay, I have one thing to say to you: Props to being the guy who read far enough to get to that point. Most of the people who feel the same as you probably gave up before ever getting that far along.
It’s the kind of racism that you don’t express in public, or in private, it’s not even racist thoughts.
But it’s there, we know it is.
It’s called “bias”- to a large degree it’s actually human nature.
I applaud him for attempting to be introspective. Self-awareness goes a long way towards confronting bias. When you realize that your initial perceptions aren’t always right, it humbles you and makes you more open to everything. Including people from different ethnicities and racial origins.
Racism is still very hidden. You won’t see it unless you at least try to see it from someone else’s perspective. Things that I had attributed to innocuous circumstance happened often enough for me and my family to realize that it’s there. Truthfully, I don’t even think people were aware of what they were doing- but they were behaving differently. I don’t think they meant to do it- it was a reaction.
That’s what Korver was getting at. I think.
And again, at the root of it, it’s bias. Very few want to be called racist- or even biased. It’s deeper than just not telling racist jokes or any outward manifestations. Like or not, we’re all biased (racist) to a degree- it’s only through awareness that we become less so.
And I expected a post like yours. And, quite frankly, I KNEW it would come from you. I didn’t think you would “get it”, or even try to get it.
Yes bias is human nature. We all have it. We all show it. We all stereotype others. And none of us can avoid it let alone eliminate it.
I know I act differently when I see African Americans when I’m out for a walk, in a store, or when they are providing a service for me. I guess I try to do my small part to avoid the ravages of racism by being more friendly. This implies that I assume AA’s are people to be treated better or we will pay a price through more conflict. I’m stereotyping. I also know the majority muggings, car jackings, purse snatching, and gang activity where I live are committed by AA young men. That is why I try to be more alert when in high risk areas. That is also stereotyping.
The incident Korver described involved a fight and a knife assault on another NBA player. Presumably the cops moved quickly and forcefully to avoid the further risk of violence or retaliation. Korver’s teammate was at the wrong place at the wrong time. We don’t even know what skin color the cops had. The point is Korver engaged in the same stereotyping that he seemingly objects to and doesn’t even realize it.
Oh, and Thabo received justice in the end. The system might cause injustice, but the system also repairs the damage.
Can I be honest, I am pretty much over this topic. I will go about trying to treat people the way I want to be treated and I will teach my children to do the same.
And yes, I know that is my perceived "privelege" as a white male to bow out, I don't care anymore...at one point I did but you all beat the care out of me by focusing on stuff that does not matter and offering zero solutions other than introspection. Be good to people no matter who they are. That's my solution, you all can argue over the rest.
And yes, I know that is my perceived "privelege" as a white male to bow out, I don't care anymore...at one point I did but you all beat the care out of me by focusing on stuff that does not matter and offering zero solutions other than introspection. Be good to people no matter who they are. That's my solution, you all can argue over the rest.
I was impressed that Korver was willing to talk it through publicly. Here’s some background on the Korver family that might be interesting.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23561760/cleveland-cavaliers-kyle-korver-plays-family-tragedy
And here’s an example of how it made at least one writer feel to see a white player put himself out there.
https://theundefeated.com/features/why-jazz-kyle-korver-words-on-white-privilege-and-racism-matter/
Maybe empathy is a good thing, and maybe there isn’t enough of it.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23561760/cleveland-cavaliers-kyle-korver-plays-family-tragedy
And here’s an example of how it made at least one writer feel to see a white player put himself out there.
https://theundefeated.com/features/why-jazz-kyle-korver-words-on-white-privilege-and-racism-matter/
Maybe empathy is a good thing, and maybe there isn’t enough of it.
I think the same, and it will be nice when everybody thinks so. I remember last year I was writing an essay on a similar topic, and I expressed the same thought in it. I ordered that essay from iWriter, but I got an incompetent writer, and had to rewrite the essay. I decided to read reviews about writing services to find another one, and found this one about iWriter service. I saw that many people complained on poor quality of the papers, and read that anyone can join this company, that’s why there are such incompetent writers.
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Interesting thought and perspectives. Not that I agree with all of it. I do agree with his first reaction regarding his teammate being out late at night. It's one of the first things that comes to my mind when I see a story about anyone who gets arrested or in trouble early in the Morning. Even though we probably didn't listen in our younger years our Parents and Coaches were right when they preached to us that very little good happens after midnight.
I think where Korver goes off the tracks is with his Statement about taking responsibility for the actions of our ancestors. None of my family arrived in this Country until the early 1900's. With an Irish Grandfather and Slovanian Grandmother, I am sure they were victims of ethnic discrimination after they arrived. how do I assess my responsibility for their actions?
I think he also clouds the issue of personal responsibility. There are too many excuse makers and victim appointers on both sides, Until we hold everyone accountable and at least make sure they learn from their mistakes and past conduct things won't get better.
Korver alludes to this at one point, that he is a beneficiary of "reverse white privilege". A white guy in a game with 75% Black Players with limited physical ability other than a great shooting stroke who has carved out a 15 Year Plus Career in a sport dominated by people with great athletisism. He is the one who seems to be totally out of place.
I think where Korver goes off the tracks is with his Statement about taking responsibility for the actions of our ancestors. None of my family arrived in this Country until the early 1900's. With an Irish Grandfather and Slovanian Grandmother, I am sure they were victims of ethnic discrimination after they arrived. how do I assess my responsibility for their actions?
I think he also clouds the issue of personal responsibility. There are too many excuse makers and victim appointers on both sides, Until we hold everyone accountable and at least make sure they learn from their mistakes and past conduct things won't get better.
Korver alludes to this at one point, that he is a beneficiary of "reverse white privilege". A white guy in a game with 75% Black Players with limited physical ability other than a great shooting stroke who has carved out a 15 Year Plus Career in a sport dominated by people with great athletisism. He is the one who seems to be totally out of place.
What a world we live in, where people are more concerned about the actions of our ancestors than they are about their own people’s actions today. I would be interested in being engaged in conversations about fixing root causes of some of these problems. I am not interested in apologizing for the actions of ignorant people some 150+ years ago anymore than I’ll apologize for the black on black crime that is so prevalent today. The people leading this movement are focused on ice cubes when there are icebergs in the water...
I also find it quite odd that people are not more interested in discussing why people are racist. Not just against blacks, but whites, Jews, Asians, etc...
I also find it quite odd that people are not more interested in discussing why people are racist. Not just against blacks, but whites, Jews, Asians, etc...
convenient editing by you
Korver never discusses "invisible racism". It is not invisible at all. It is just not in your face Karen-ish/ Trump-ish behavior.
quote:
"the kind of racism that can seem almost invisible"
"It isn’t the kind that announces itself when it walks into the arena. It’s the quiet and subtle kind. The kind that almost hides itself in plain view."
"I just think we need to push ourselves another step further. First, by identifying that less visible, less obvious behavior as what it is: racism."
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How is "black on black" crime any more prevalent than "white on white" crime? Hint: It's not.
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If their interest is truly saving black lives, eliminating those crimes would have the biggest impact. It’s like having a campaign to reduce drug induced deaths & focusing on anaphylaxis instead of opiates.
Black Lives Matter is about police murdering citizens. Police are there to protect, not murder citizens.
it's that old thing about make sure you clean up your yard before going on to complain about someone else's.
(At a basketball game)
Coach, I don't see why you are complaining bitterly about that one admittedly totally bogus foul call that sent your star player out of the game, when your team committed 15 other fouls that you didn't complain about
Coach, I don't see why you are complaining bitterly about that one admittedly totally bogus foul call that sent your star player out of the game, when your team committed 15 other fouls that you didn't complain about
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Well written article. One question I have is this. Since it appears that Thabo was arrested and then later cleared of wrong doing, did he resist arrest? How did he get the leg injury? Did he stand there with his hands up and they came along and hit him in the leg with a club? Obviously the cops got the situation wrong in this case. For Thabo was cleared. I'd just like to know exactly what happened?
Yes he does. and it's not invisible, it''s hidden and mostly benign, .I told you previously, you don't really understand it... because you don't. And for some reason I doubt you want to.
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When racism is so hidden that it can only be found using a strong light and big magnifying glass, then I'd say we are doing pretty good. I'll agree that we have examples of racism that are not so hidden, and those are worthy of discussion. But this isn't that.
Yeah, because focusing on people’s thoughts is much more important than their behaviors. By that thought process, every poster on the OTF is a sex offender for even thinking about sex acts with the women pictured. If the focus stays on actual behaviors it becomes much more difficult to make a case for systemic racism
For all those who seem to claim to be religious or Christians, a basic tenent that always seems to be forgotten: Learn to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
Bottom line is that its a country, stolen or at least colonised off the hands of the native Americans; built on the backs of slavery and the exploitation of other minorities over its history. All of it has been whitewashed or swept all that under the carpet or at worse rationalised. Though this isn't something new -- from Brazil to Australia.
I was watching a documentary about the 'injustices' (a euphemism is there ever was one) during the process of colonisation and genocide of the Native Americans over the centuries -- including by the folks on Mount Rushmore. Everything's been whitewashed.
People just don't want to hear any of it. Its never been addressed. Thus the lack of self-awareness or empathy. All have been justified somehow. And then people wonder why there are some subconscious reactions to acts of racism.
Guilt.
But it has been addressed. The fact that you’re aware of indicates that. ACTS of racism are deplorable & should be dealt with appropriately. But to suggest that there is this racism in the ether that exists in thought with no behaviors to substantiate it that undermines minority groups is difficult to accept. Not because I haven’t walked a mile in their shoes, but because there is little evidence, or certainly acts of racism from my perspective are the exceptions. Why hasn’t this inherent systematic racism by white people affected other ethnic groups or races in the same way? It is likely unwise for me to even say, but at times it appears as if some of the outrage has become the excuse for a shakedown...
Been addressed? How are the Native Americans and the Blacks doing since its all been 'addressed'? They seem to suffer the most from hurricanes to pandemics unless that's what you call addressing it. There is a sub-humanisation of non-whites and thus the desensitisation of the plight of minorities.
A black person is more like to die from this pandemic than a white. And yet where is the outrage?
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