Dianne Feinstein - Completely ridiculous.

[zeke4ahs]

Right nobody said experience alone. Would you like to respond to my point?

You are the one who suggested some kind of expertise is needed to evaluate teaching. My response was that it doesn’t take an expert to know what a well-managed classroom looks llike or to know the difference between an effective and ineffective teacher. I noted that many “experts” in the area really aren’t. I also noted good teachers have traits you don’t learn in class. I also noted the only factor teachers have over parents in these areas is the teacher’s experience. Would you care to discuss the other sources of teacher expertise you referred to as you belittled parents who comment on the quality of education their kids receive?

Where did I belittle parents? I’m belittling this particular group of men who gave t seen the inside of a classroom for 40 years, but are suddenly experts.
I suspect many of you would be very surprised at what good classrooms look like these days. Students don’t sit in their seats all day while the teachers lecture. Rote memorization isn’t used for much anymore besides math facts and alphabet. Successful classrooms would often look chaotic to someone who just walked in off the street. There’s no doubt that a number of intangibles that can’t be taught are very important in the making of a good teacher. We called it “teacher personality.” I can think of several teachers who got A’s all through school but couldn’t relate to kids at all. They didn’t last long.
Disagree with the fact that the only thing teachers have over parents is experience. How would you go about teaching a 5 year old to read? What if they didn’t learn by traditional methods, then what? What exactly do you think educators do in the 6 years they are in school? It appears you think no training is necessary?

 

[DANC]

<igw>
As long as the moneyed interests are allowed to take advantage of the unsophisticated, nothing will change.
</igw>

We agree on this one, Mark.

 

[zeke4ahs]

That’s pretty unfair. First of all, stress is more often than not a subjective issue. Stress is highly situational. I know a couple of lawyers who hated practicing law, went into teaching, and thrived.

Every occupation has stress at different times. I also think it is highly arrogant of you to suggest that only a teacher can know “what needs to be done to straighten these darn kids up.”. Many kinds of people have important things to say about that

Well the reason teachers have to straighten many of the darn kids up is because the parents have struggled to do so. In that case, training helps. It appears you think you can grab anyone off the street and make them into an effective teacher. Good luck. That’s probably what’s going to be happening in a few years if this environment doesn’t change. I mean, did you really need to waste all that time in school to learn to be an attorney?

 

[GuyDatHoo]

It appears you think you can grab anyone off the street and make them into an effective teacher.

Effective is a subjective term. But as an example Zeke. If you take the average Kelley and force them to become a K-8 teacher, they will be better than the vast majority of elementary ed majors. Because they’re smarter. How many elementary Ed majors could get into Kelley? 2%?

These aren’t our best and brightest here.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Well the reason teachers have to straighten many of the darn kids up is because the parents have struggled to do so. In that case, training helps. It appears you think you can grab anyone off the street and make them into an effective teacher. Good luck. That’s probably what’s going to be happening in a few years if this environment doesn’t change. I mean, did you really need to waste all that time in school to learn to be an attorney?

i don’t think the difference between an effective teacher or lawyer and an ineffective lawyer or teacher has much to do with reading textbooks or listening ito lectures. A effective teacher has more in common with an effective lawyer than the teacher has with an ineffective teacher.

 

[ribbont]

I agree with much of that, but teaching in high school is very different than teaching in elementary. I feel statements are essential. You teach children to use that instead of using their fists . It’s not an either or situation. Our high school has always taught life skills, in fact we started in elementary. I just assumed they all still do.
No late work for high schoolers maybe. For elementary that’s not always going to work. We had a work crew that rotated and helped the custodians.

Glad to see we can agree on a some things. I believe life skills is taught but it's very basic. I think it needs to be a minimum 2 semesters in HS.

On the "I feel" statement, I think you jumped to an extreme with the fists. I'm not saying kids shouldn't discuss their feelings. I am saying that by using "I feel" instead of "I think", it insulates the child from criticism or debate. We have been told we cannot question someone's feelings. So if I say I feel the sky is white at night, you can't argue against my feelings. They are my feelings and not yours, so they are correct.

But using "I think" changes that dynamic. Now you can use science to combat the inaccurate statement that the sky is white at night. And thus learning happens, critical thinking is enhanced, and coping mechanisms are created when one child learns he is wrong.

 

[UncleMark]

i don’t think the difference between an effective teacher or lawyer and an ineffective lawyer or teacher has much to do with reading textbooks or listening ito lectures. A effective teacher has more in common with an effective lawyer than the teacher has with an ineffective teacher.

I've always felt that the best teachers have a certain gift, a talent, that you can't get from an Education education. I'd posit that the pedagogy is more important in the early/elementary years, but by high school a talented but relatively untrained teacher should be able to be effective. Of course, I could be full of shit.

 

[kurt cloverdales]

At least a modicum of shop class, I remember freshman yr we switched 2 weeks with home ec and I still use things I learned in that 2 weeks . Granted I had aptitude for shop classes. My shop teacher put my Sr project on a cart and took it to the teachers lounge to show them. But just some basic life skills of some simple things to take care of yourself.

your teacher was probably showing the other teachers , look what this clown made, he will probably be a message board messiah some day

 

[Lucy01]

your teacher was probably showing the other teachers , look what this clown made, he will probably be a message board messiah some day

That job has already been filled and you and Cray weren't in the running!

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

First of all, stress is more often than not a subjective issue.

My day's adventure was to fly my plane to an airport close to my brothers house. Pick him and his two son's (my nephews) up to teach them some private pilot aviation. My youngest nephew (15 yr old) puked up everything he had eaten within the last 7 days (so it seemed) on the way to the airport just due to the self induced stress of THE POSSIBILITIES of the day, before he was even within 15 miles of seeing the airplane, let alone touching it. He was taken back home, while we, the rest of us went and flew, and enjoyed and learned.
So to your point, Stress is subjective and it is very sad that some people have a psychosomatic response that forces them into the fetal position when it thunders, but here we are.
Zeke is obviously a puker! 3rd graders scare the living crap out of her now days. Let alone some pissed off non CRT parents.

Just like we did 50 years ago in my last class experiences…..

 

[UncleMark]

My day's adventure was to fly my plane to an airport close to my brothers house. Pick him and his two son's (my nephews) up to teach them some private pilot aviation. My youngest nephew (15 yr old) puked up everything he had eaten within the last 7 days (so it seemed) on the way to the airport just due to the self induced stress of THE POSSIBILITIES of the day, before he was even within 15 miles of seeing the airplane, let alone touching it. He was taken back home, while we, the rest of us went and flew, and enjoyed and learned.
So to your point, Stress is subjective and it is very sad that some people have a psychosomatic response that forces them into the fetal position when it thunders, but here we are.
Zeke is obviously a puker! 3rd graders scare the living crap out of her now days. Let alone some pissed off non CRT parents.

I always wanted to get my license but never could justify the expense. Now I wish I'd done it anyway.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I always wanted to get my license but never could justify the expense. Now I wish I'd done it anyway.

WEll I have mine, and I am still trying to find a justification for it. On one hand, the fact that I tackled something this involved at 50+yrs old is self rewarding, on the other hand the fact that I tackled something this involved at 50+ yrs old is EFF'ing insane, with zero ROI other than "I did it".... which doesn't pay back jack sh$t!

But it wasn't meant as a grand stand. The point was about (self induced) stresses of life. My nephew who is nearly a teenage musical savant, self induces personal torture just THINKING about flying. Poor kid!
Which made me think of Zeke teaching....oh those poor kids!

 

[Courtsensetwo]

That's a societal problem, not a teaching problem.

It is a societal problem that manifests as a teaching and educational problem. Your post claimed that everyone knows what goes on in the classroom because they all spent 12 Yrs there is ludicrous.

 

[NPT]

If you think teaching isn’t one of the more stressful occupations out there, you aren’t paying attention. It’s a little silly comparing it to those occupations… race car driver? Although the lock downs, shooter drills, storming school boards etc have added a degree of safety concerns. It used to just be worrying about kids that would hit you or spit on you, but no longer. This thread right here is exactly why all the good teachers are leaving the profession. Numbers at colleges are plummeting and everyone will wonder why no one wants to teach anymore. Teachers go to school for six years, have multiple in class experiences and then student teach. But everyone wants to tell you how to do your job. ( This actually isn’t the case in real life. I never had a single time where a parent was disrespectful, second guessing or concerned about what was being taught) My guess is it’s the large percentage of people, like most of you, who don’t even have kids involved anymore but feel like you know exactly what needs to be done to straighten these darn kids up. Just like we did 50 years ago in my last class experiences…..

I never said that teaching wasn't stressful but there's a lot of stressful jobs. Just about all companies now try to do a two person job with one person. You think the person doing the job is in a relaxed mode? You think nurses are able to relax when the hospitals are always understaffed (except in upper management). Stress comes in many different forms.... I had a job it IT and it's very stressful when something is wrong and you have no idea what it is and you have a bunch of users calling and complaining. I got called at all hours of the night and sometimes had to get up and actually go into work if I couldn't fix it from home.

 

[Hank Reardon]

I never said that teaching wasn't stressful but there's a lot of stressful jobs. Just about all companies now try to do a two person job with one person. You think the person doing the job is in a relaxed mode? You think nurses are able to relax when the hospitals are always understaffed (except in upper management). Stress comes in many different forms.... I had a job it IT and it's very stressful when something is wrong and you have no idea what it is and you have a bunch of users calling and complaining. I got called at all hours of the night and sometimes had to get up and actually go into work if I couldn't fix it from home.

I manage an IT dept at a medium sized company. It's like 'Nam. Long periods of routine boredom punctuated by brief periods of sheer terror. Minus the weed and the explosions, naturally.

 

[NPT]

I think the problem is people want things NOW. Defered gratification is a foreign concept to them. They also don't realize how interest rates on borrowed money can sap them.

My parents never learned this. They were hard workers and lived a simple lifestyle, but absolutely could not manage money and we always had a pile of unpaid bills. I never knew how to break out of that cycle until I got married and my wife straightened me out. Once you understand, the concept of money management is simple and easy (think Dave Ramsey). But just getting to that mindset is impossible for some.

PT Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute and, boy, was he right.

That is so true. I've never had a budget ON PAPER but always had one mentally. I'd look at something I want and decide that I couldn't afford it. The funny thing is now I can afford about anything I want but don't want much of anything.

Another thing is that a lot of people have no idea how to manage the money they have. If you gave a lot of people a million dollars a lot of them would think they could spend like crazy and it last forever.

I'm always surprised how many people in their 60s still have a house payment. Now that could be a good financial move but it still surprises me when someone that old casually mentions something that leads me to believe they still have a house payment. Let's face it, for the last decade a person would have been a lot better off financially to borrow as much as they could against their house and invest it in the S&P 500.

 

[NPT]

I manage an IT dept at a medium sized company. It's like 'Nam. Long periods of routine boredom punctuated by brief periods of sheer terror. Minus the weed and the explosions, naturally.

I can't say as I was ever bored and was always under some stress because of people like you putting pressure on me to get something done.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

I manage an IT dept at a medium sized company. It's like 'Nam. Long periods of routine boredom punctuated by brief periods of sheer terror. Minus the weed and the explosions, naturally.

Yup...although would be much worse if I had people's parents telling me what to do that have no IT background.

 

[Hank Reardon]

Yup...although would be much worse if I had people's parents telling me what to do that have no IT background.

People with no IT experience telling you what to do? Do you know our CFO?

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Right nobody said experience alone. Would you like to respond to my point?

You are the one who suggested some kind of expertise is needed to evaluate teaching. My response was that it doesn’t take an expert to know what a well-managed classroom looks llike or to know the difference between an effective and ineffective teacher. I noted that many “experts” in the area really aren’t. I also noted good teachers have traits you don’t learn in class. I also noted the only factor teachers have over parents in these areas is the teacher’s experience. Would you care to discuss the other sources of teacher expertise you referred to as you belittled parents who comment on the quality of education their kids receive?

I would not only suggest that a level of expertise is required to evaluate teaching but a fair level of experience as well.

Observing a controlled, well-behaved classroom might look good. but expertise and experience lead an observer to look more closely at the students who come from a variety of home structures and bring a broad range of learning (and behavioral) interests and capabilities. Education is valued and supported very differently among homes and families.

Each student brings their own set of values, lenses and capabilities and a teacher must find that delicate balance of supporting that symphony of needs and abilities.

Disruptive kids, disruptive or disengaged parents and guardians combined with school administrations that too often don't support the teachers, creates a difficult environment and a career that far too often disappoints and disillusions young teachers into walking away within five years.

 

[iuwclurker]

i don’t think the difference between an effective teacher or lawyer and an ineffective lawyer or teacher has much to do with reading textbooks or listening ito lectures. A effective teacher has more in common with an effective lawyer than the teacher has with an ineffective teacher.

Shorter COH: A good teacher uses sophistry to con his pupils into believing the crock of shit he’s feeding them.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Shorter COH: A good teacher uses sophistry to con his pupils into believing the crock of shit he’s feeding them.

Good teachers do none of that.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

People with no IT experience telling you what to do? Do you know our CFO?

Well yea, have higher ups doing that

 

[Hank Reardon]

Disruptive kids, disruptive or disengaged parents and guardians combined with school administrations that too often don't support the teachers, creates a difficult environment and a career that far too often disappoints and disillusions young teachers into walking away within five years.

Anecdotal, of course, but my sister works as a teacher's aide in an elementary school. She's retiring after this year. She often recounts how impossible it is to deal with disruptive kids, and much of it has to do restrictions on what they can and can't do. An example that she gave recently was a kid who basically wouldn't stop shouting in class, just random yelling and disruption, standing in his chair, etc. They are not allowed to remove such a kid. Instead, they have to MOVE THE OTHER 20 KIDS out into the hallway and wait for an "administrator" to come down and deal with the disruptive 2nd grader.

My mother taught elementary school. She's many years retired, of course. She has said there is no way she'd be a teacher today.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Yup...although would be much worse if I had people's parents telling me what to do that have no IT background.

Everyone has a boss and every organization has customers/stakeholders to answer to. That's the way the world works.

Education is no different and I'd argue there's much more at stake.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Anecdotal, of course, but my sister works as a teacher's aide in an elementary school. She's retiring after this year. She often recounts how impossible it is to deal with disruptive kids, and much of it has to do restrictions on what they can and can't do. An example that she gave recently was a kid who basically wouldn't stop shouting in class, just random yelling and disruption, standing in his chair, etc. They are not allowed to remove such a kid. Instead, they have to MOVE THE OTHER 20 KIDS out into the hallway and wait for an "administrator" to come down and deal with the disruptive 2nd grader.

My mother taught elementary school. She's many years retired, of course. She has said there is no way she'd be a teacher today.

I have had an issue like that. It is ridiculous the limitations put on teachers to resolve issues like that.

We had to finally request that our kid get assigned to a different teacher from a kid that was regularly disruptive when they were assigning kids in a subsequent school year.

 

[Spartans9312]

40 million people....

Feinstein defends herself amid new questions about her capabilities in Senate job

U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) faces new questions about her ability to fulfill her job responsibilities.

www.yahoo.com

We wonder why we have so many dumb questions at show hearings. It’s not an accident that the 2 biggest spending programs for the 2022 fiscal year are Social Security ($1.196 trillion) and Medicare ($766 billion)—entitlements for seniors, both of which are on track to insolvency in the coming years. Our senior benefits are the biggest drivers of long-term debt.
The effects of an elderly Congress

 

[UncleMark]

We wonder why we have so many dumb questions at show hearings. It’s not an accident that the 2 biggest spending programs for the 2022 fiscal year are Social Security ($1.196 trillion) and Medicare ($766 billion)—entitlements for seniors, both of which are on track to insolvency in the coming years. Our senior benefits are the biggest drivers of long-term debt.
The effects of an elderly Congress

Talk about a reach...

 

[Spartans9312]

Talk about a reach...

You’re right. I should’ve said “one of the effects of an elderly Congress”.
You also have the lack of fresh thinking in politics. When someone has been in the same role for decades, they tend to fall back on old habits, and it shows. Biden entered the Senate in ‘73. Pelosi has been in Congress since ‘87. There’s a reason politics seems to lack new ideas: Too many of the people at the top clearly haven’t had one in a very long time.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Shorter COH: A good teacher uses sophistry to con his pupils into believing the crock of shit he’s feeding them.

At least you use appropriate pronouns instead of that gender-neutralism we see creeping into education.

 

[DANC]

It is a societal problem that manifests as a teaching and educational problem. Your post claimed that everyone knows what goes on in the classroom because they all spent 12 Yrs there is ludicrous.

Well, you're ludicrous so that makes us even.

Sorry if you didn't pay attention during your 12 years.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Well, you're ludicrous so that makes us even.

Sorry if you didn't pay attention during your 12 years.

smh

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I would not only suggest that a level of expertise is required to evaluate teaching but a fair level of experience as well.

Observing a controlled, well-behaved classroom might look good. but expertise and experience lead an observer to look more closely at the students who come from a variety of home structures and bring a broad range of learning (and behavioral) interests and capabilities. Education is valued and supported very differently among homes and families.

Each student brings their own set of values, lenses and capabilities and a teacher must find that delicate balance of supporting that symphony of needs and abilities.

Disruptive kids, disruptive or disengaged parents and guardians combined with school administrations that too often don't support the teachers, creates a difficult environment and a career that far too often disappoints and disillusions young teachers into walking away within five years.

I haven't discounted experience. But I do discount teacher education as an important factor. Like so many occupations, suitability depends on qualities that can’t be taught.

I think your point about different student backgrounds is important for young students, but as they develop I think the quality of the teaching becomes more influential.

 

[DANC]

I never said that teaching wasn't stressful but there's a lot of stressful jobs. Just about all companies now try to do a two person job with one person. You think the person doing the job is in a relaxed mode? You think nurses are able to relax when the hospitals are always understaffed (except in upper management). Stress comes in many different forms.... I had a job it IT and it's very stressful when something is wrong and you have no idea what it is and you have a bunch of users calling and complaining. I got called at all hours of the night and sometimes had to get up and actually go into work if I couldn't fix it from home.

My IT job included managing groups in New Zealand, India, and the Phillipines. I worked my normal 8+ hours during the day and then went home to field calls all night from NZ, since their day started at around 5pm our time. Not only NZ, but calls from our data center(s) in California.

Then the Indian group that covered our 3rd shift would ALWAYS have an issue at 2 or 3am. I never got an uninterrupted night's sleep.

My health was going downhill after about 12 years in that job. When I was offered early retirement (along with about 10,000 other people in the company), I snapped it up and have never regretted it. My only regret is that I put up with it so long.

I loved IT when I first started in the field. Loved programming and analyzing business problems. I should have stuck to doing that, instead of chasing a higher salary - I'd have been a lot happier.

 

[DANC]

I have had an issue like that. It is ridiculous the limitations put on teachers to resolve issues like that.

We had to finally request that our kid get assigned to a different teacher from a kid that was regularly disruptive when they were assigning kids in a subsequent school year.

How long did you stand on your chair before they made you get down?

 

[DANC]

That is so true. I've never had a budget ON PAPER but always had one mentally. I'd look at something I want and decide that I couldn't afford it. The funny thing is now I can afford about anything I want but don't want much of anything.

Another thing is that a lot of people have no idea how to manage the money they have. If you gave a lot of people a million dollars a lot of them would think they could spend like crazy and it last forever.

I'm always surprised how many people in their 60s still have a house payment. Now that could be a good financial move but it still surprises me when someone that old casually mentions something that leads me to believe they still have a house payment. Let's face it, for the last decade a person would have been a lot better off financially to borrow as much as they could against their house and invest it in the S&P 500.

I couldn't wait to pay off our mortgage. Our financial guy told me I need to get another mortgage and put the money in the market (which he managed, of course). I told him my peace of mind was way more important that making more money, at that point in my life.

I have some in-laws whose dad sold a company (many Ft. Wayne people would recognize the company, so I won't name it her) and split the money with he and his kids getting equal shares. If was a large amount each - large.

One of the kids kept his job, invested the money, and is now very wealthy, living on a lake in northern Indiana, but still generally living what we would consider a simple lifestyle, considering his wealth. On the board of several companies, but retired and living the good life. He was the one considered not-so-smart by the rest of the family.

One invested in real estate and lost his ass in 2008. Still working and living in his father-in-law's house.

The third on built a McMansion, quit her job, her husband quit his job, and they generally lived like they were millionaires (which they were, but with no income other than their investments). They eventually had to move out, get jobs, and now live in a 3 BR ranch.

The last 2 were considered the 'smart' ones. Go figure.

Like you, I could afford about anything I want, but can't bring my self to pull the trigger on things like a sports car that I'd really like to have. It also pains me to pay for a nice vacation, but I find that easier to do than buy luxuries items. We made many attempts at a budget, but neither one of us were detailed enough to record and stick to it. We mainly acted as watchdogs on each other's spending. lol

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It is a societal problem that manifests as a teaching and educational problem. Your post claimed that everyone knows what goes on in the classroom because they all spent 12 Yrs there is ludicrous.

Why is it ludicrous? Most classmates agree who were effective and effective teachers. We talk about that at reunions.

 

[NPT]

I couldn't wait to pay off our mortgage. Our financial guy told me I need to get another mortgage and put the money in the market (which he managed, of course). I told him my peace of mind was way more important that making more money, at that point in my life.

Me either.... ours was paid off when I was in the early 40s... made me feel content.

 

[Hank Reardon]

Me either.... ours was paid off when I was in the early 40s... made me feel content.

Maybe. We still owe money on our mortgage (about 25% of the home's value). We could easily pay it off, but why? The interest rate is low, and leaving that money in more lucrative investments (well until the Russians invaded anyway, but too late now) seems like a better deal. Why take money out of something earning 8%-10% over the long haul to pay off something costing me 4%? A mortgage seems like cheap money. I mean, I'd not go out and get another one for fun, but I don't see the rush to pay it off.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

I haven't discounted experience. But I do discount teacher education as an important factor. Like so many occupations, suitability depends on qualities that can’t be taught.

I think your point about different student backgrounds is important for young students, but as they develop I think the quality of the teaching becomes more influential.

Suitability is always 70% of the equation for any career. That, and attitude.

The education component is essential so that young teachers are aware and attuned to the many influencing factors that make of a classroom.