Depth and rotation as season progresses?

[96gradGUS]

Much has been made about our depth improvement which is a good thing. But how many should be in the rotation to allow a good flow as we match up with better teams?

My thoughts on primary rotation:
Brunk-
TJD-
D Davis - lower mins
Justin
Jerome
Rob
Al
Green

Not sold on Races value in his mins
Don't trust Andersons game
Not sure Franklin is ready to take mins from Rob, Al and Green.

 

[baileyiu]

Much has been made about our depth improvement which is a good thing. But how many should be in the rotation to allow a good flow as we match up with better teams?

My thoughts on primary rotation:
Brunk-
TJD-
D Davis - lower mins
Justin
Jerome
Rob
Al
Green

Not sold on Races value in his mins
Don't trust Andersons game
Not sure Franklin is ready to take mins from Rob, Al and Green.

Race is going to get a lot of playing time, especially when we go small - which is our best line-up.
I’m not sold on Brunk yet - he is slow, non-athletic & below avg hands. He had 4 t/o’s last night!
I hope I am wrong about Joey - we need to be able to play a big line-up against a number of B1G teams

 

[96gradGUS]

Race is going to get a lot of playing time, especially when we go small - which is our best line-up.
I’m not sold on Brunk yet - he is slow, non-athletic & below avg hands. He had 4 t/o’s last night!
I hope I am wrong about Joey - we need to be able to play a big line-up against a number of B1G teams

What does Race give us? Not very athletic, can't shoot, and is maybe 6'8" probably 6'7". Would rather play Hunter who has upside

 

[iubud]

Much has been made about our depth improvement which is a good thing. But how many should be in the rotation to allow a good flow as we match up with better teams?

My thoughts on primary rotation:
Brunk-
TJD-
D Davis - lower mins
Justin
Jerome
Rob
Al
Green

Not sold on Races value in his mins
Don't trust Andersons game
Not sure Franklin is ready to take mins from Rob, Al and Green.

I agree on Anderson. There will be nights that he can light it up and nights he won't hit anything. How will you know what nights are going to be good? I would use him if everyone else is struggling. I have a little more faith in Franklin. He doesn't hurt the team when he plays and has shown to be a good distributor of the ball.

Race would be in my rotation before Davis. His rebounding and willingness to bang inside has been good so far. He is better than Davis on both ends of the court. Davis is a bigger body that we might need to come in for fouls or to play a possession at the end of a half to keep a player from picking up another foul.

I would have 9 players in the rotation with Anderson and Davis inserted only if needed. Archie will leave a player in and let them play if they are having a good night. If one of these 2 come in and does well, they can earn more time. If they don't they may play in one stint and sit the rest of the game.

 

[baileyiu]

What does Race give us? Not very athletic, can't shoot, and is maybe 6'8" probably 6'7". Would rather play Hunter who has upside

Race is very athletic & a great rebounder! Race can shoot - watch him shoot free throw’s! I hope & expect Hunter to get more minutes as he gets into game shape, but he is not a 4 and Race is.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Much has been made about our depth improvement which is a good thing. But how many should be in the rotation to allow a good flow as we match up with better teams?

My thoughts on primary rotation:
Brunk-
TJD-
D Davis - lower mins
Justin
Jerome
Rob
Al
Green

Not sold on Races value in his mins
Don't trust Andersons game
Not sure Franklin is ready to take mins from Rob, Al and Green.

You're right about Damezi & Franklin. Damezi was horrible last night. Gave up a very bad drive +1 and missed every shot he took, including at least one bad shot. Franklin is looking like a freshman. That 1st game showed his potential, but was an outlier. Those guys may find themselves being 5 minute players when the games get serious, depending on the health of Rob & Green.

You're wrong about Race & Hunter. Race has been very effective, and JH just isn't getting it done right now. He hopefully will get much better, but right now he's not effective at all.

 

[96gradGUS]

You're right about Damezi & Franklin. Damezi was horrible last night. Gave up a very bad drive +1 and missed every shot he took, including at least one bad shot. Franklin is looking like a freshman. That 1st game showed his potential, but was an outlier.

You're wrong about Race & Hunter. Race has been very effective, and JH just isn't getting it done right now. He hopefully will get much better, but right now he's not effective at all.

I just don't see upside with Race. I see upside with JH that will come with mins

 

[chaboom]

Race just needs to be more confident and stronger with the ball around the basket. Go up strong and slam it or knock it down off the glass. Easy thing for the coaches to point out on the film from last night. I think Race is going to be very good and with his athleticism he can be a factor in B1G conference play this season. I think he's just beginning himself to realize how good he can be.

 

[Jssanto]

I am not down on Race at all. Young in age I think, and lost a lot of last season with concussion.
I think Franklin will earn minutes and be fine. Not as many as Rob, Al, or Green but more than some feel.
To me, Davis + Brunk = one big guy just based on injuries, fatigue, and how hard it is to bang with elite bigs.
I am really hoping for a lot from TJD.

 

[turney333]

I just don't see upside with Race. I see upside with JH that will come with mins

Hunter has more upside and potential to be a star, but Race offers more right now in a clearly defined role (defense/rebounding)

 

[cshartle123]

It seems like Damezi and Race are cases of low confidence. They both struggle to keep their composure to make simple plays. Fellow players report that they are both great practice players. Maybe we forget that playing in Assembly Hall is a stressful experience. For some guys, it takes time to handle the mental part.

 

[kkott]

I agree on Anderson. There will be nights that he can light it up and nights he won't hit anything. How will you know what nights are going to be good? I would use him if everyone else is struggling. I have a little more faith in Franklin. He doesn't hurt the team when he plays and has shown to be a good distributor of the ball.

Race would be in my rotation before Davis. His rebounding and willingness to bang inside has been good so far. He is better than Davis on both ends of the court. Davis is a bigger body that we might need to come in for fouls or to play a possession at the end of a half to keep a player from picking up another foul.

I would have 9 players in the rotation with Anderson and Davis inserted only if needed. Archie will leave a player in and let them play if they are having a good night. If one of these 2 come in and does well, they can earn more time. If they don't they may play in one stint and sit the rest of the game.

with Davis, it just depends on his health and conditioning. If he has both, I think he's our best post, or certainly could play starters minutes alongside TJD. Just looking less and less likely that we'll ever get to see that Deron and I hate that for him.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I just don't see upside with Race. I see upside with JH that will come with mins

You have to see the upside in practice before you start giving him more minutes in the game.

Right now, Race is more productive, and it's not close.

In 88 minutes Race has 30 rebounds, which averages out to 15 per every 40 minutes. In 75 minutes, JH has 11 rebounds, which is about 6 per every 40 minutes.

Race is shooting .563 from the field, JH .393, including 3/13 on 3s. Several of his misses have been air balls. Race is .929 from the line, JH .750. Race has 4 assists, 1 TO, 5 BSs & 5 steals to 1 assist, 2 TOs, 2 BSs and 4 steals for JH.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

It seems like Damezi and Race are cases of low confidence. They both struggle to keep their composure to make simple plays. Fellow players report that they are both great practice players. Maybe we forget that playing in Assembly Hall is a stressful experience. For some guys, it takes time to handle the mental part.

With regard to Damezi, it looks more like lack of concentration or low basketball IQ rather than lack of confidence.

On one play last night the opponent just drove right by him....he was completely lacking in his defensive effort....just standing upright as the guy got all the way to the basket.

 

[cshartle123]

With regard to Damezi, it looks more like lack of concentration or low basketball IQ rather than lack of confidence.

On one play last night the opponent just drove right by him....he was completely lacking in his defensive effort....just standing upright as the guy got all the way to the basket.

We agree with what we are seeing. We disagree with the why. Only time will tell. One can get over the nerves, but low basketball IQ is incurable.

 

[iubud]

with Davis, it just depends on his health and conditioning. If he has both, I think he's our best post, or certainly could play starters minutes alongside TJD. Just looking less and less likely that we'll ever get to see that Deron and I hate that for him.

We don't know what is going on with DD. His scratch last night might be something that he has been fighting all season and the reason he looks slow and out of condition.

I'm hoping for 8-10 minutes to allow us to maintain a bigger body in the post for 40 minutes if needed.

 

[TommyCracker]

With regard to Damezi, it looks more like lack of concentration or low basketball IQ rather than lack of confidence.

On one play last night the opponent just drove right by him....he was completely lacking in his defensive effort....just standing upright as the guy got all the way to the basket.

We have three guys who are breaking down defensively, causing stress on our D.

Hunter, Damezi and Durham.

Hunter and Damezi I understand as they are building their experience.

Durham is driving me nuts and should be better. He is really struggling stopping the ball and he's overplaying and not recovering. All these threes we have been giving up seems like a big chunk come from a bad defensive decision by Al.

He was much better in the second half but he's not anywhere the level as Green, Rob and Justin are.

Hunter has been downright awful on D. Completely lost right now. Makes sense tho, it's just his fifth game remember but right now....yikes.

 

[Brad and Chad]

What does Race give us? Not very athletic, can't shoot, and is maybe 6'8" probably 6'7". Would rather play Hunter who has upside

Defense, hustle, minutes. 6 and 6 doesn't come off as much, but considering IU got 6 and 6 out of Fitzner, Moore, and Forrester combined last year, you'll start to appreciate Race more.

 

[T.M.P.]

Not sold on Races value in his mins

Currently leading the team in def efficiency, off efficiency, 4th in foul rate, 1st in TO percentage, 2nd in block percentage, 4th in steal percentage, 1st in rebound percentage, 1st in off rebound percentage, 2nd in defensive rebound percentage. 3rd in PER. He's also 1st in BPM (+/-) though I hate that stat.

Are you sure you know what you're looking for? Considering he's probably doing more per minute than anyone not named Trayce.

 

[T.M.P.]

Durham is driving me nuts and should be better. He is really struggling stopping the ball and he's overplaying and not recovering. All these threes we have been giving up seems like a big chunk come from a bad defensive decision by Al.

Which is why we almost always go on runs and get defensive stops when Phin is placed on Al's guy. He's overplaying and gambling.. also our bigs need to get back and in position faster, though it wasn't an issue last night, it has been.

Have you noticed the extended defense lately? Unpacked on strong side and when ball is on top. ie Playing the player not the lane.

 

[snarlcakes]

Currently leading the team in def efficiency, off efficiency, 4th in foul rate, 1st in TO percentage, 2nd in block percentage, 4th in steal percentage, 1st in rebound percentage, 1st in off rebound percentage, 2nd in defensive rebound percentage. 3rd in PER. He's also 1st in BPM (+/-) though I hate that stat.

Are you sure you know what you're looking for? Considering he's probably doing more per minute than anyone not named Trayce.

The offensive efficiency stat isn’t that good (can be misleading might be a better word choice)of a stat for bigs. Also, Race (and big guys overall) is most likely benefitting the most from the crappy competition. He is not very athletic and undersized for a big guy in the Big Ten. That’s less likely to show up against lower ranked D1 schools. If he plays this well the entire season, than kudos to @TommyCracker. I’ve never been that high on him.

 

[TR32]

Race has been really good. This thread makes little sense.

You gotta watch the games to see how players help a team. Green made a great pass that Race missed, but overall, he played quite well against Princeton and continues to give IU reallly good minutes at the 4. He is a team player and an ox on the boards, in addition to other stat pluses as have been illuminated. A big asset.

 

[T.M.P.]

Race has been really good. This thread makes little sense.

You gotta watch the games to see how players help a team. Green made a great pass that Race missed, but overall, he played quite well against Princeton and continues to give IU reallly good minutes at the 4. He is a team player and an ox on the boards, in addition to other stat pluses as have been illuminated. A big asset.

The stats verify the eye test. Eye test verifies the stats. There should be no argument, he's been our most consistent player and he does it without a lot of touches. Every team needs that guy.

 

[TommyCracker]

The stats verify the eye test. Eye test verifies the stats. There should be no argument, he's been our most consistent player and he does it without a lot of touches. Every team needs that guy.

Yeah he's one of those ultra valuable players that can impact the offense without needing the ball.

Whereas (is that a word?) De'ron and Joey need the ball to be as effective as they can. If we don't go through them they kindof just take up space and muck things up.

 

[TommyCracker]

Which is why we almost always go on runs and get defensive stops when Phin is placed on Al's guy. He's overplaying and gambling.. also our bigs need to get back and in position faster, though it wasn't an issue last night, it has been.

Have you noticed the extended defense lately? Unpacked on strong side and when ball is on top. ie Playing the player not the lane.

Is that a reaction to the three point shooting or do you think it's because Rob and Devonte (particularly Rob) are such strong on ball defenders?

Am I mistaken to be very encouraged on Smith's defensive play on the perimeter? He seems like he's not having any trouble laterally with smaller players and it allows him to be a real physical presence vs 3's compared to fighting taller and heavier players at the 4.

It's been striking when Hunter or Damezi have come in at the 3 on the defensive end. Part of it is I think Smith knows the scheme more but I've been really encouraged that he's been beating his smaller man to spots.

At least it seems like he is.

 

[TommyCracker]

The offensive efficiency stat isn’t that good (can be misleading might be a better word choice)of a stat for bigs. Also, Race (and big guys overall) is most likely benefitting the most from the crappy competition. He is not very athletic and undersized for a big guy in the Big Ten. That’s less likely to show up against lower ranked D1 schools. If he plays this well the entire season, than kudos to @TommyCracker. I’ve never been that high on him.

He's a classic goon. Big, thick, okay athleticism but has a football/hockey mentality.

He's always been hurt because he's such a violent player.

I think his floor is a steroid infused McRoberts. He isn't even looking to score like McRoberts right now.

If he develops his old man game a little more...I don't see why he couldn't have a game like Andrew Charabcz of Butler.

 

[T.M.P.]

Is that a reaction to the three point shooting

?? but we were really bad for 2.5 games closing out on shooters and stopping early clock drives. Seems to have at least shut down the open threes. .

 

[T.M.P.]

He's a classic goon. Big, thick, okay athleticism but has a football/hockey mentality.

He's always been hurt because he's such a violent player.

I think his floor is a steroid infused McRoberts. He isn't even looking to score like McRoberts right now.

If he develops his old man game a little more...I don't see why he couldn't have a game like Andrew Charabcz of Butler.

He's also a smart basketball player. I'd like to see him step into that open three when they give it to him. He doesn't have a bad shot.

 

[.Gerdis]

Yeah he's one of those ultra valuable players that can impact the offense without needing the ball.

Whereas (is that a word?) De'ron and Joey need the ball to be as effective as they can. If we don't go through them they kindof just take up space and muck things up.

Brunk was a key contributor on the offensive end versus Princeton. Had he not displayed a case of butterfingers (4 TOS?), he could have been much better. His footwork was very good, and he had some post moves that were reminiscent of DD last season (when he displayed some healthy flashes),

I am worried that defensively he will be a liability. Teams have gone after him a little bit and defensively he needs to be better at using what he does have, size. TC, you used the term “muck things up”, and while we don’t want Brunk mucking up our offensively movement and flow, I’d be ok with him mucking up the other teams. He needs to be physical on D. There have been a few times where he has shown no resistance, and that makes him appear as slow as molasses. He has to use what he has (size), be in good defensive position, and keep a body on his man. I’d like to see a little more nastiness from him on D.

 

[Cavanagh]

Brunk was a key contributor on the offensive end versus Princeton. Had he not displayed a case of butterfingers (4 TOS?), he could have been much better. His footwork was very good, and he had some post moves that were reminiscent of DD last season (when he displayed some healthy flashes),

I am worried that defensively he will be a liability. Teams have gone after him a little bit and defensively he needs to be better at using what he does have, size. TC, you used the term “muck things up”, and while we don’t want Brunk mucking up our offensively movement and flow, I’d be ok with him mucking up the other teams. He needs to be physical on D. There have been a few times where he has shown no resistance, and that makes him appear as slow as molasses. He has to use what he has (size), be in good defensive position, and keep a body on his man. I’d like to see a little more nastiness from him on D.

His moves are much worse than a healthy DD. He is slower and just goes up through the man looking for a foul or to power it up. DD fakes fakes and fakes some more till he gets a clean look at a short bunny normally. DD has much better footwork and truly has old man game. Brunk has 300lb ogre game. I hope Brunk does not average more than 10 mins a game come conference .

 

[MonroeCity]

Much has been made about our depth improvement which is a good thing. But how many should be in the rotation to allow a good flow as we match up with better teams?

My thoughts on primary rotation:
Brunk-
TJD-
D Davis - lower mins
Justin
Jerome
Rob
Al
Green

Not sold on Races value in his mins
Don't trust Andersons game
Not sure Franklin is ready to take mins from Rob, Al and Green.

If you're not sold on Race's value, I really question what you are watching.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

If you're not sold on Race's value, I really question what you are watching.

Likewise. Race provides solid interior post defense without fouling. He cleans the glass. He missed a couple easy put-backs against Princeton, but that will likely be an aberration.

I presume playing with a guy like Green takes a little getting used to. Most people aren't used to getting the ball in the spaces that Green can put it. Race is probably thinking "ho hum, doin my job, pick, roll, rebound. Oh crap, a pass hit me in the hands! I should shoot this! Oops."

On one of them, you could tell he wasn't prepared to get the ball like that. He tried to dunk, and then realized he was too far away and blew the lay-up.

 

[jsig]

I don't see how anyone can be disappointed in Race. He is such a hustle guy and seems to be the first guy scrapping for loose balls or contested rebounds.

I think it still hard to predict the rotation now. Once the competition toughens up in December who plays well in those games will play. I could see the top 8 below as player who have to play their way out of the rotation.

Brunk, Deron, Race
TJD, Race, Smith
Smith, Al
Green, Al
Phin, Al

Of course Deron and Phin are struggling with nagging injuries so that impacts their minutes. They can get by against the powder puffs resting guys but that time will soon end.

I'd say Damezi and Franklin will likely play less once it comes time to tighten the rotation but who knows how they will do when December rolls around. Damezi has to get his jumper going down more consistently. A good game every now and then makes it hard to rely on him unless one of the top 8 are hurt or play badly. Hunter might be in the same situation with Damezi and Frnklin but he seems like a wild card. To me he just needs to get up to college game speed after having a year off.

Hunter has flashed his skills and athleticism but for the most part has seemed to struggle to fit in the offense or get anything going consistently. It may take a year. Hopefully less but once he puts it together then I think he'll be hard to keep off the court. Wish Archie would give him a big minutes game in one of the next 2 to see if he can shake off rust and get some rhythm in the offense.

 

[snarlcakes]

He's a classic goon. Big, thick, okay athleticism but has a football/hockey mentality.

He's always been hurt because he's such a violent player.

I think his floor is a steroid infused McRoberts. He isn't even looking to score like McRoberts right now.

If he develops his old man game a little more...I don't see why he couldn't have a game like Andrew Charabcz of Butler.

Race looks to be a year ahead of where I thought he would be. I expected him to crack the rotation, next year. He is a good rebounder, especially on the offense end. He positions himself well. He tries to hit the defender first to establish a good rebounding position. He's currently not that good of an offensive player (creating his own shot and etc.), but you still have to be aware of him because he is 5 feet from the basket and a good rebounder. For some reason, I laughed when you mentioned Andrew Charabcz. He did end up a pretty good player and is a perfect example of an old man game.

 

[TommyCracker]

He's als a smart basketball player. I'd like to see him step into that open three when they give it to him. He doesn't have a bad shot.

He shot over 45% from three as a junior in high school and he's currently shooting what...over 90% on a decent amount of free throw attempts?

It's in his toolbox.

 

[TommyCracker]

?? but we were really bad for 2.5 games closing out on shooters and stopping early clock drives. Seems to have at least shut down the open threes. .

Nick on the premie (he played at U of Evansville for Crews) was screaming at us and Al on the premie for not doing something with shooters, I can't remember what he called it, run up? It wasn't until Green got in that he mentioned he was doing exactly what he was telling about on shooters and it caused air balls and misses.

So it seems to me like it's definitely a Durham thing that he needs to correct. I think it comes from knowing how far to drift from shooters. Green sticks but will explode for help and get back to a position where he doesn't have to leap at a shooter, he can run up on them in control.

Al loses the shooter and gets pulled so far away that he keeps getting burned and can't recover without having to leap at them out of control.

 

[baileyiu]

Nick on the premie (he played at U of Evansville for Crews) was screaming at us and Al on the premie for not doing something with shooters, I can't remember what he called it, run up? It wasn't until Green got in that he mentioned he was doing exactly what he was telling about on shooters and it caused air balls and misses.

So it seems to me like it's definitely a Durham thing that he needs to correct. I think it comes from knowing how far to drift from shooters. Green sticks but will explode for help and get back to a position where he doesn't have to leap at a shooter, he can run up on them in control.

Al loses the shooter and gets pulled so far away that he keeps getting burned and can't recover without having to leap at them out of control.

The second half Al did a great job on Princeton’s star guard!

 

[areik22]

People are really thinking Race isn't gonna end up being a rotation guy this year???

Are we watching the same team so far?

 

[areik22]

I just don't see upside with Race. I see upside with JH that will come with mins

Lineups with Race allow IU something it doesn't have with either Brunk or DD; the ability to defend the pick and roll well. And he's a tenacious rebounder. We really don't need much offense from him, a bulk of his minutes so far have come alongside TJD. And I don't think he's a guy who's not going to be capable at some point in his career of hitting that open 3...when he does he's gonna be a starting-quality player.

 

[T.M.P.]

Nick on the premie (he played at U of Evansville for Crews) was screaming at us and Al on the premie for not doing something with shooters, I can't remember what he called it, run up? It wasn't until Green got in that he mentioned he was doing exactly what he was telling about on shooters and it caused air balls and misses.

So it seems to me like it's definitely a Durham thing that he needs to correct.

Everyone uses different terminology. We were taught that you had to explode to the shooter, one big step to bother the catch. two small steps to gather yourself and hand up to pressure. If you allow the shooter to catch comfortably and get it into his shooting pocket without any pressure, you're late.

But like I said above, it's not just that we're closing out better, we're instead shading to the shooters instead of the lane - unpacking the packline a bit - which means our guys are covering less ground, so easier to close but there's a driving gap in there now.