Delphi murders about to be solved? (Part 1)

[mushroomgod_1]

I don’t know. This doesn’t feel like a home run. Things aren’t adding up for me.

If the guy was a relative unknown in town, WTH would be stay and work at probably the most public place of employment in town? And hang out in bars?

1 block from the Sherriff's dept.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Didn’t RL lie because he had lost his license and that’s how they actually picked him up to hold him for questioning?

No........Thing is.......he also drove earlier that day and LE knew it. When he asked for the alibi from his cousin he was only interested in an alibi for the specific time the killing was going on.

More likely he asked for the alibi (on the 14th) because he knew about what time the girls went missing and because they were found on his property....he was going to be under suspicion (assuming he wasn't actively involved in some way....as a look-out maybe?).

RA was on the bridge periodically.......did he know RL?

 

[mushroomgod_1]

When they say "yard" are we thinking 1/2 acre or 10 acres. There's a difference there. The latter, somebody could have buried something without you knowing. The former, not so much.

Rumor is that they actually were very targeted in what they dug up....at least some of which was the fire pit......they didn't 'dig up the whole yard' as people were saying early on.

There was also some talk that his neighbor had alleged he stole something from him and that was a/the reason they were there in the first place........no idea if there is any validity to that rumor.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I don’t know. This doesn’t feel like a home run. Things aren’t adding up for me.

If the guy was a relative unknown in town, WTH would be stay and work at probably the most public place of employment in town? And hang out in bars?

Speculation is because as a pedo he was a 'visual' guy and liked the access to photos.....of Libby & Abby at the funeral for instance. Or other children?

I wonder when he lost the goatee relative to the murder date. To me he looked like BG. There's also a video out there of him playing pool where he has a little hitch in his step ala BG.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Speculation is because as a pedo he was a 'visual' guy and liked the access to photos.....of Libby & Abby at the funeral for instance. Or other children?

I wonder when he lost the goatee relative to the murder date. To me he looked like BG. There's also a video out there of him playing pool where he has a little hitch in his step ala BG.

I saw the video. He has that awkward gate. Plus the hat in the video he got for Christmas is a match.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I saw the video. He has that awkward gate. Plus the hat in the video he got for Christmas is a match.

Where did you see the hat he got for X-Mas....haven't seen that

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Rumor is that they actually were very targeted in what they dug up....at least some of which was the fire pit......they didn't 'dig up the whole yard' as people were saying early on.

There was also some talk that his neighbor had alleged he stole something from him and that was a/the reason they were there in the first place........no idea if there is any validity to that rumor.

Here are a few other matters to consider--

--When he was arrested, they said he sometimes used the 'alias' of Craigh(correct spelling) Ross Renfrow, who turns out to be a real person (from Peru?). That sure sounds like a pedo thing to do.
--It's possible that KK set Libby up to meet RA on the bridge without knowing RA was going to kill the girls...that RA went rogue.
--ISP has said that two people on the A_S account communicated with Libby. Everyone assumed the other was TK. Maybe it was RA?
--FOX 59 is reporting that RA came forward as a witness fairly early in the investigation....no indication of what he said he witnessed.
--Interesting that they conducted the search on 10/15 but he wasn't arrested until last Wednesday......during the search he just stood around outside with his wife. So.....did they lack sufficient PC to charge him before the search? If not, why would they have risked him trying to escape or possibly offing himself?

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Where did you see the hat he got for X-Mas....haven't seen that

It’s a beenie. And if you look close that’s the hat.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Where did you see the hat he got for X-Mas....haven't seen that

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

This is the hat. I can’t find the other one. They are disappearing. There’s another with him wearing the coat. His wife and daughter probably knew. That photo of him that had the artist sketch in the background is creepy.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Here are a few other matters to consider--

--When he was arrested, they said he sometimes used the 'alias' of Craigh(correct spelling) Ross Renfrow, who turns out to be a real person (from Peru?). That sure sounds like a pedo thing to do.
--It's possible that KK set Libby up to meet RA on the bridge without knowing RA was going to kill the girls...that RA went rogue.
--ISP has said that two people on the A_S account communicated with Libby. Everyone assumed the other was TK. Maybe it was RA?
--FOX 59 is reporting that RA came forward as a witness fairly early in the investigation....no indication of what he said he witnessed.
--Interesting that they conducted the search on 10/15 but he wasn't arrested until last Wednesday......during the search he just stood around outside with his wife. So.....did they lack sufficient PC to charge him before the search? If not, why would they have risked him trying to escape or possibly offing himself?

Here's something very interesting to consider on RA's charges:

He's been charged with two counts of 'Felony Murder' under IC 35-42-1-1(2).

He's NOT been charged under IC 35-42-1-1(1), which requires that someone ."knowingly or intentionally kill another human being".

He COULD have been charged under both theories concerning both girls.

To me, this signals that LE is not 100% certain who physically killed the girls. They are certain he is BG. Because the act of ordering the girls 'down the hill' against their wishes amounts to kidnaping, and murder resulted.

Had LE been 100% sure that he both ordered the girls down the hill and physically participated in the killings he presumably would have been charged under both theories for both girls.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Here's something very interesting to consider on RA's charges:

He's been charged with two counts of 'Felony Murder' under IC 35-42-1-1(2).

He's NOT been charged under IC 35-42-1-1(1), which requires that someone ."knowingly or intentionally kill another human being".

He COULD have been charged under both theories concerning both girls.

To me, this signals that LE is not 100% certain who physically killed the girls. They are certain he is BG. Because the act of ordering the girls 'down the hill' against their wishes amounts to kidnaping, and murder resulted.

Had LE been 100% sure that he both ordered the girls down the hill and physically participated in the killings he presumably would have been charged under both theories for both girls.

To amend my comments slightly.......they might also charge this way if they knew RA DID physically participate in the actual killing with another individual, but they weren't certain who delivered the fatal blows (the girls were stabbed).

In any event, this is a clear indication (to me) that at least one of the other 'person or persons' involved were involved rather directly, v. a situation where KK (most likely) just lured the girls to the bridge but wasn't physically there.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

To amend my comments slightly.......they might also charge this way if they knew RA DID physically participate in the actual killing with another individual, but they weren't certain who delivered the fatal blows (the girls were stabbed).

In any event, this is a clear indication (to me) that at least one of the other 'person or persons' involved were involved rather directly, v. a situation where KK (most likely) just lured the girls to the bridge but wasn't physically there.

Amendment #2........Charging this way could ALSO indicate that they aren't sure whether or not there was a second killer. If they can't exclude the 2nd killer, they can't prove RA killed the girls.

So to summarize: They think they know RA is BG. They might or might know if RA participated in the killing. They might or might know if RA delivered the fatal blows. They might or might know if there was a second killer.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Saw he was the manager of the CVS in Delphi too.

Big pharma!

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Here are a few other matters to consider--

--When he was arrested, they said he sometimes used the 'alias' of Craigh(correct spelling) Ross Renfrow, who turns out to be a real person (from Peru?). That sure sounds like a pedo thing to do.
--It's possible that KK set Libby up to meet RA on the bridge without knowing RA was going to kill the girls...that RA went rogue.
--ISP has said that two people on the A_S account communicated with Libby. Everyone assumed the other was TK. Maybe it was RA?
--FOX 59 is reporting that RA came forward as a witness fairly early in the investigation....no indication of what he said he witnessed.
--Interesting that they conducted the search on 10/15 but he wasn't arrested until last Wednesday......during the search he just stood around outside with his wife. So.....did they lack sufficient PC to charge him before the search? If not, why would they have risked him trying to escape or possibly offing himself?

Here's a theory I've heard about how KK might NOT be the one or more other persons thought to be 'connected' to the case, and why RA's arrest may not have been basically as a result of KK rating him out.:

--RA allegedly was in a dispute with a neighbor (over tools) where the kicked in the neighbor's garage door and took his tools back (a rumor);

--RA gets arrested and, under a law that went into effect after Libby & Abby were killed (and because of those murders), he has to give a DNA sample. They had no prior DNA sample for him.

--The DNA comes back as a match for DNA found on Abby's body.

--That gives LE PC for a search warrant for RA's property, where incriminating evidence was found.

This theory would explain why RA wasn't taken into custody before or on the day of the search, when there was a chance that he might off himself before arrest.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Ron Logan is dead....couple of years ago. Originally, the FBI thought he was BG. Rumor is the FBI gave the case to the CC Prosecutor with him as the Perp.

RL was on/near the Freedom Bridge at 2:09 on 2/13/17. He made a call at that time. No non-LE type knows who to. The girls were being approached by BG at the other end of the trail at about 2:16.

RL's phone "pinged" sometime around 8:00 pm(?) on the evening of 2/13. The exact time and coordinates of the ping are referenced in the RL search warrant. A pretty darn good podcaster claims that the ping could be traced to a very tight area (50 ft or less?), and that the ping came from his property where the girls were eventually found, and not from his house. In other words, that HE found the girls first on 2/13 (the search found them the next day around Noon). This is the single most interesting remaining Delphi question to me.........exactly how accurate was that ping and does it place him at the exact crime scene on the evening of 2/13?

If it does, it does not mean that he did the killing. To me, that's always seemed very unlikely even before RA came along. Most people agree because of his age (although he was a robust MFer), and because RL doesn't look or sound much like BG; however, he sure as hell did dress like BG. which led some people to speculate that he was framed.

In any event, the FBI 'bought' RL as BG, but ISP and the Sherriff did not....thus no charges filed against him.

Anybody really interested in Delphi should start in two places: the RL search PC Affidavit (which literally states the FBI had probably cause to believe he murdered the girls, not just that he had info or things on his property related to the case).

Yabbut ...

By 8:00 pm, many people were stomping around in those woods and nearby fields. Probably hundreds. And "rumor" is that up to a dozen walked within yards of the bodies. So his phone pinging on his own property that night isn't much but an FBI agent stretching a probable cause warrant affidavit. Probably a lot of phones pinged "nearby."

At that time there were only 2 cell phone towers in Delphi - one was about 250 yards from his house, and 500 yards from the bodies. But they can't really "triangulate" it.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Is there any indication when the info will be unsealed?

 

[IUCrazy2]

Is there any indication when the info will be unsealed?

To make sure they protect their ability to prosecute the case, I hope they keep it locked tight until they have the trial.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

To make sure they protect their ability to prosecute the case, I hope they keep it locked tight until they have the trial.

Isn’t it considered unfair to the defendant if the info on why they were arrested is kept secret?

Obligatory IANAL. Maybe one of the boards attorneys can weigh in.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Isn’t it considered unfair to the defendant if the info on why they were arrested is kept secret?

Obligatory IANAL. Maybe one of the boards attorneys can weigh in.

I think the defense gets access to it but they can keep it from the public.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I think the defense gets access to it but they can keep it from the public.

For attorneys out there.....is there a statute or a trial rule that applies to the specific question of sealing criminal charges and PC affidavits? Around here it's not all that uncommon, but I've never known the legal basis for it.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Yabbut ...

By 8:00 pm, many people were stomping around in those woods and nearby fields. Probably hundreds. And "rumor" is that up to a dozen walked within yards of the bodies. So his phone pinging on his own property that night isn't much but an FBI agent stretching a probable cause warrant affidavit. Probably a lot of phones pinged "nearby."

At that time there were only 2 cell phone towers in Delphi - one was about 250 yards from his house, and 500 yards from the bodies. But they can't really "triangulate" it.

Couple things.......my understanding is that the time his phone pinged was after Tobe had called off the organized search. I went back and looked at the RL PC and saw that RL had texted someone at 7:56 and received a text at the same location at 10:16 The location of both pings is described as being "outside his residence and in the proximity of where the bodies were located"..

Apparently LE couldn't figure out who he was texting because the recipient had a 'burner phone'. I know nothing about such things, but that's what I later heard. RL did not participate in the organized search, but he was out on his property when night fell. The other specific ping cited is said to be at/on the Freedom Bridge at 2:09 pm. The Freedom Bridge is at the very beginning of the trails.

The alibi RL requested from his cousin on 2/14 was for 2:00-2:30 only.

I don't think RL was BG, but he's a suspect for me as a potential 2nd killer. Word is that the scene was cleaned by chemicals (said to be orange cleaner). The blood found was under leaves. Who would have been in a better position than RL to chemically clean the property? Also, as a frequent user of the trails, RA may well have known RL, who was always very suspicious of people being on or around his property.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

So the judge asked to recuse himself after have Allen transferred for Allen's safety. According to the judge in that transfer:

"This finding is not predicated on any acts or alleged acts of the Defendant, since arrest, rather a toxic and harmful insistence on "public information" about Defendant and this case."​

​

I guess the judge also said he was aware of pictures of "his" family appearing in YouTube videos. The writing seems unclear, but it sounded like it refers to the Judge's family.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Couple things.......my understanding is that the time his phone pinged was after Tobe had called off the organized search. I went back and looked at the RL PC and saw that RL had texted someone at 7:56 and received a text at the same location at 10:16 The location of both pings is described as being "outside his residence and in the proximity of where the bodies were located"..

Apparently LE couldn't figure out who he was texting because the recipient had a 'burner phone'. I know nothing about such things, but that's what I later heard. RL did not participate in the organized search, but he was out on his property when night fell. The other specific ping cited is said to be at/on the Freedom Bridge at 2:09 pm. The Freedom Bridge is at the very beginning of the trails.

The alibi RL requested from his cousin on 2/14 was for 2:00-2:30 only.

I don't think RL was BG, but he's a suspect for me as a potential 2nd killer. Word is that the scene was cleaned by chemicals (said to be orange cleaner). The blood found was under leaves. Who would have been in a better position than RL to chemically clean the property? Also, as a frequent user of the trails, RA may well have known RL, who was always very suspicious of people being on or around his property.

Yes, and no.

Tobe called off the "official" search around 11:00 pm - (alleged liability worries over walking around in the dark with high cliffs bordering the creek, plus at least a lingering mild suspicion that the girls may have just run off, told family they were going to the trails, then going off somewhere else, now scared to come back and get in trouble, like 90+ percent of most "missing teen" cases) - but dozens of folks kept searching all night.

Next (allegedly - unconfirmed rumors) some guy was waiting at Logan's house when he drove up around 6:00 pm on 2/13. He was asking to search for the girls on Logan's property. (This guy also later became subject to the YouTubeBoobs and Internet Army who argued he was a suspect because his truck was parked at the cemetery, and they think/believe/heard he lied about why (lost car keys versus blocked in by cop cars versus whatever). But this - and the general TV news of 2 kids missing who had been on the bridge and trail across the creek from his property gave Logan notice he was likely to be questioned by cops, and he wasn't supposed to driving, and he needed to alibi his trip to Lafayette. (He was right. They came the next day) The next morning, he asked his cousin to tell the cops "I picked up Logan between 2 and 2:30 and drove him over to Lafayette." Logan had a receipt from a Lafayette fish store from around 4:30, and it was about a 20-30 minute drive. Eventually, the cousin told that lie to the cops, but fessed up 2 days later, which made Logan move up to Suspect No. 1 - owned the land where the bodies were found and lied about driving.

 

[DrHoops]

The guy in the video is dead?

The guy who the local news interviewed the next day died since the murders. His alibi for where he was that day (going to LaFayette to buy things for his fish tank) was proven to be a a lie. The guy lived adjacent to the park.

I will try to find the video. Sorry for not being more clear, but I’m going on memory. The guy being interviewed by the news was wearing what looked to be exactly the same jacket worn by the man crossing the bridge that was caught by the girl on video. This news interview was shown on the news before the video by the victim was was released by police to the public.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

This case is getting a lot of heat. And a lot of people here seem very interested in it and have really followed if closely. I'm kinda suprised by the level of detail you all know.

Genuiine curiousity here with no judgment attached or implied: why? We all have our obsessions or interests; if this is yours, why is that, do you think?

 

[DrHoops]

Crazy that this guy was just hiding in plain sight in Delphi for 5 plus years after the murder.

If you really think about it, unless you have some sort of direct link to one of the victims, you’re pretty much going to be hiding in plain sight. The Green River Killer is a perfect example.

the disturbing thing is how many who are out there under the radar.

 

[DrHoops]

This case is getting a lot of heat. And a lot of people here seem very interested in it and have really followed if closely. I'm kinda suprised by the level of detail you all know.

Genuiine curiousity here with no judgment attached or implied: why? We all have our obsessions or interests; if this is yours, why is that, do you think?

I think it’s because it happened in a small town in Indiana similar to where a lot of us grew up. It’s a “It could never happen here” story.

Not “obsessed”, by the way, but it’s something I’ve followed if something popped up on YouTube.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

The guy who the local news interviewed the next day died since the murders. His alibi for where he was that day (going to LaFayette to buy things for his fish tank) was proven to be a a lie. The guy lived adjacent to the park.

I will try to find the video. Sorry for not being more clear, but I’m going on memory. The guy being interviewed by the news was wearing what looked to be exactly the same jacket worn by the man crossing the bridge that was caught by the girl on video. This news interview was shown on the news before the video by the victim was was released by police to the public.

His alibi about going to a fish store was NOT a lie. He lied about DRIVING HIMSELF there, because he was on probation as a habitual criminal for repeated drunk driving. He claimed his cousin drove him. His cousin initially supported that for 2 days, then told the truth.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

This case is getting a lot of heat. And a lot of people here seem very interested in it and have really followed if closely. I'm kinda suprised by the level of detail you all know.

Genuiine curiousity here with no judgment attached or implied: why? We all have our obsessions or interests; if this is yours, why is that, do you think?

I have a daughter. She had a best friend too.

This story was on the news here the night they went missing. I used to fish another Deer Creek over by Cannelton, Indiana. It grabbed my attention.

Then the cops show a picture of the guy on the bridge and you know it’s just seconds or minutes before he kills two 13 year old girls.

I think the biggest thing was the single mom of Abby. She let her kid hang out with Libby and her family all the time, even go on vacation with them. And one day they are both murdered. And she was so kind about it, even in her grief. She said first day, if they had called me I’d have said let her go - I trust them.” Not a single word of blame. It all just broke your heart.

Then they show video of him walking.

And audio saying “Guys … down the hill.”

I think they got the guy too.
There has been numerous “persons of interest” and they looked into all of them, never bit on any, and dropped them quick. Looks like they got onto this guy recently, found some strong evidence and made an arrest. Just smells like the end.

It just grabbed me and I followed it from day 1.
Whole crazy world of Facebooks groups and YouTubers hating on each other if they disagreed about ANYTHING.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

This case is getting a lot of heat. And a lot of people here seem very interested in it and have really followed if closely. I'm kinda suprised by the level of detail you all know.

Genuiine curiousity here with no judgment attached or implied: why? We all have our obsessions or interests; if this is yours, why is that, do you think?

It’s just a crazy case all the way around. I mean, they have the guy responsible on video. They have an audio recording of his voice. Yet, it took 5 and a half years to make an arrest.

And it was obvious all along that it was someone from the local community who was responsible. That makes it even more unique.

 

[DrHoops]

His alibi about going to a fish store was NOT a lie. He lied about DRIVING HIMSELF there, because he was on probation as a habitual criminal for repeated drunk driving. He claimed his cousin drove him. His cousin initially supported that for 2 days, then told the truth.

Okay, thanks for correcting me. I’m not an expert, but the person who was his alibi said it wasn’t true. Not su

if you could link that up, it would be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

It’s just a crazy case all the way around. I mean, they have the guy responsible on video. They have an audio recording of his voice. Yet, it took 5 and a half years to make an arrest.

And it was obvious all along that it was someone from the local community who was responsible. That makes it even more unique.

I thought for a long time it was a serial killer who had lived there in the past and knew the area, but mostly because the FBI put the photo on electronic billboards in 48 states. I figured they thought the guy was long gone, could be anywhere, and were looking nationwide.

But local cops always said they thought he was local - and they were apparently right.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

It’s just a crazy case all the way around. I mean, they have the guy responsible on video. They have an audio recording of his voice. Yet, it took 5 and a half years to make an arrest.

And it was obvious all along that it was someone from the local community who was responsible. That makes it even more unique.

I haven't followed this at all. How did they get the video and audio?

And thanks for answering the question in the spirit in which it was intended.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Okay, thanks for correcting me. I’m not an expert, but the person who was his alibi said it wasn’t true. Not su

if you could link that up, it would be great. Thanks in advance.

Try this one

Reddit link

it’s the FBI search warrant affidavit for the second search of Logan’s property. they mention finding the receipt from the fish store during first search, and talk about his claim of his cousin taking him to the store, then the cousin spilling the beans. They stretch the allegations a little to get the warrant, but you can why they liked him for a while.

Other rumors are the FBI REALLY liked him, but local cops didn’t

He eventually got sentenced to do his remaining.3 years from the habitual DUI and I think did 2, then got out - died from Covid.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

I haven't followed this at all. How did they get the video and audio?

And thanks for answering the question in the spirit in which it was intended.

One of the girls recorded the guy walking across the bridge towards them and ordering them down the hill to where they were murdered.

It was discovered on her cell phone recovered at the scene. Apparently there was 43 seconds of recording, only a small portion of which has been released to the public. For pretty obvious reasons.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

I haven't followed this at all. How did they get the video and audio?

And thanks for answering the question in the spirit in which it was intended.

I’m not hoops, but they found Libby’s iphone and she had videoed him as he approached them

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

One of the girls recorded the guy walking across the bridge towards them and the ordering them down the hill to where they were murdered.

It was discovered on her cell phone recovered at the scene.

Oh my god.

And he didn't notice or take the phone?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

So mushroom has floated a couple of vague ideas on this topic a few times, but in all seriousness: does anyone have any serious thoughts on what the motive might be? I hear a lot of speculation about how it went down that really makes it sound like these two girls were targeted. Why would that be?

 

[DrHoops]

Try this one

Reddit link

it’s the FBI search warrant affidavit for the second search of Logan’s property. they mention finding the receipt from the fish store during first search, and talk about his claim of his cousin taking him to the store, then the cousin spilling the beans. They stretch the allegations a little to get the warrant, but you can why they liked him for a while.

Other rumors are the FBI REALLY liked him, but local cops didn’t

He eventually got sentenced to do his remaining.3 years from the habitual DUI and I think did 2, then got out - died from Covid.

Reddit is notoriously wrong

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

So mushroom has floated a couple of vague ideas on this topic a few times, but in all seriousness: does anyone have any serious thoughts on what the motive might be? I hear a lot of speculation about how it went down that really makes it sound like these two girls were targeted. Why would that be?

The theory I’ve heard that may even have been mentioned here is that Kegan Kline was communicating with these girls and set up a meeting. The girls of course thinking they were talking to a male model. Richard Allen and Kline knew each other so they may have both been in on it.

The motive was obviously sexual. These kind of murders are always sexually motivated.

And the fact that Richard Allen had no criminal record probably helped conceal him and may have been why he didn’t flee. Hell, Dennis Rader had no criminal record.

I’m sure some of the others here who are following this more closely may have additional thoughts but that’s my amateurish take.