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Debris removal and red tape

CO. Hoosier

CO. Hoosier

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Aug 29, 2001
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In case you wanna know why debris removal is not as fast as you think it should be.

Red Tape



There are pre-proved contractors who follow storms. That might be okay for smalller incidents, but in these extra-ordinary times this red tape is a problem.

When Biden says he is doing everything possible, one more thing would be to waive some of these requirements. I have not seen that he has issued any waivers. Local governments should be able to use and pay for any one who has a front end loader and a dump truck.

Biden through a few executive orders has imposed a number of DEI requirements on federal agencies, and federal contractors. I don’t know if those requirements will affect federal reimbursements to local contracted debris removal services. That could be another problem.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
So, in other words, your thread starter is premature and a waste of time.
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No. I was being charitable towards the government. FEMA prioritized equity over relief in a number of ways

What I don’t know is whether the DEI EO’s apply to FEMA reimbursements. The other items definitely apply and I think some of those can be waived in these exigent circumstances.
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
In case you wanna know why debris removal is not as fast as you think it should be.

Red Tape



There are pre-proved contractors who follow storms. That might be okay for smalller incidents, but in these extra-ordinary times this red tape is a problem.

When Biden says he is doing everything possible, one more thing would be to waive some of these requirements. I have not seen that he has issued any waivers. Local governments should be able to use and pay for any one who has a front end loader and a dump truck.

Biden through a few executive orders has imposed a number of DEI requirements on federal agencies, and federal contractors. I don’t know if those requirements will affect federal reimbursements to local contracted debris removal services. That could be another problem.
Click to expand...
You did not mention something important:

Florida Hurricane Debris Cleanup Information | Florida Department of Environmental Protection

Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA)Debris constituting an immediate threat to public health and safety and removed by the responsible local entity may be eligible for funding under the FEMA Public Assistance program.For more information, visit the FEMA website.U.S. Army Corps of...
floridadep.gov floridadep.gov

Florida has its own rules that also must be complied with. Biden can't change state law.

Florida is roughly 1/2 the population of Great Britain, so it's too big to be ignored.

Pssst. It's not just Biden or Desantis.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
No. I was being charitable towards the government. FEMA prioritized equity over relief in a number of ways

What I don’t know is whether the DEI EO’s apply to FEMA reimbursements. The other items definitely apply and I think some of those can be waived in these exigent circumstances.
Click to expand...
You've already demonstrated your understanding of what FEMA did leaves something to be desired, so forgive me for waiting for facts instead of just accepting your assumptions on the matter.
 
Last edited:
Stuffshot said:
You did not mention something important:

Florida Hurricane Debris Cleanup Information | Florida Department of Environmental Protection

Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA)Debris constituting an immediate threat to public health and safety and removed by the responsible local entity may be eligible for funding under the FEMA Public Assistance program.For more information, visit the FEMA website.U.S. Army Corps of...
floridadep.gov floridadep.gov

Florida has its own rules that also must be complied with. Biden can't change state law.

Florida is roughly 1/2 the population of Great Britain, so it's too big to be ignored.

Pssst. It's not just Biden or Desantis.
Click to expand...
Gotta love FEMA’s three most important goals in building a nation resilient to disasters. Goal #1 is a gem.
www.fema.gov

2022–2026 FEMA Strategic Plan

The 2022-2026 FEMA Strategic Plan outlines a bold vision and three ambitious goals designed to address key challenges the agency faces during a pivotal moment in the field of emergency management.
www.fema.gov www.fema.gov
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
In case you wanna know why debris removal is not as fast as you think it should be.

Red Tape



There are pre-proved contractors who follow storms. That might be okay for smalller incidents, but in these extra-ordinary times this red tape is a problem.

When Biden says he is doing everything possible, one more thing would be to waive some of these requirements. I have not seen that he has issued any waivers. Local governments should be able to use and pay for any one who has a front end loader and a dump truck.

Biden through a few executive orders has imposed a number of DEI requirements on federal agencies, and federal contractors. I don’t know if those requirements will affect federal reimbursements to local contracted debris removal services. That could be another problem.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that the 'contractors' with arrangements with the Fed, make tens of $millions out of extremely lucrative deals, and the donations to the pols would be negatively affected if someone other than them actually stepped up to help the victims of these disastrous storms.

Nothing personal.

It's just business.
 
Mas-sa-suta said:
Keep in mind that the 'contractors' with arrangements with the Fed, make tens of $millions out of extremely lucrative deals, and the donations to the pols would be negatively affected if someone other than them actually stepped up to help the victims of these disastrous storms.

Nothing personal.

It's just business.
Click to expand...
Generally speaking, federal regulations and red tape favor big operators.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
In case you wanna know why debris removal is not as fast as you think it should be.

Red Tape



There are pre-proved contractors who follow storms. That might be okay for smalller incidents, but in these extra-ordinary times this red tape is a problem.

When Biden says he is doing everything possible, one more thing would be to waive some of these requirements. I have not seen that he has issued any waivers. Local governments should be able to use and pay for any one who has a front end loader and a dump truck.

Biden through a few executive orders has imposed a number of DEI requirements on federal agencies, and federal contractors. I don’t know if those requirements will affect federal reimbursements to local contracted debris removal services. That could be another problem.
Click to expand...

so, you have no experience or expertise? ✅

but you do have canned political outrage? ✅

and race baiting? ✅

other than all that, solid post...
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
you don’t understand the funding point any better than you understand the debris removal contracting requirements.
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There was no funding point except misplaced outrage. I listed a link from the Congressman Research Service showing Congress created that program specifically to deal with migrants. Congress specifically renamed the program and gave it money for migrants. You left the thread to not have to answer it
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
in 2022 congress created a fund specifically for migrants and the administration has no discretion to spend those funds for other purposes. The prior fund was discretionary . If you are correct, the 2022 fund would have been unnecessary. That is it not a reasonable interpretation.
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Just take the loss. You're embarrassing yourself once again.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
in 2022 congress created a fund specifically for migrants and the administration has no discretion to spend those funds for other purposes. The prior fund was discretionary . If you are correct, the 2022 fund would have been unnecessary. That is it not a reasonable interpretation.
Click to expand...

Here is the link:


In FY2023, Congress directed CBP and FEMA to establish a new Shelter and Services Program (SSP) to replace the EFSP-H. The EFSP-H continued to operate while FEMA and CBP worked to establish the new SSP. FEMA and CBP have stated that the plan is to phase out the EFSP-H. DHS/FEMA made the first tranche of SSP funding available in June 2023 and made the second tranche of SSP funding available in August 2023.​
​
From that, to bolster what is below:

The EFSP was established in 1983 through the Temporary Emergency Food Assistance Act of 1983 (Title I of P.L. 98-8)—referred to as the “Job Stimulus Bill”38 and later authorized under the Stewart B. McKinney Homeless Assistance Act of 1987 (Title III of P.L. 100-77), renamed the McKinney-Vento Homeless Assistance Act in 2000.39 The EFSP is codified at 42 U.S.C. §§11331 et seq. In 2019, Congress first appropriated funding to the EFSP specifically for aiding migrants. While no funding was provided to the EFSP for this specific purpose in FY2020, Congress has authorized FEMA to supplement the humanitarian relief efforts of local nonprofit, faith-based, and governmental organizations aiding migrants encountered by DHS from FY2021 through FY2023. In this period, the EFSP has effectively functioned on two tracks: • Track 1: EFSP, which funds the primary mission of assisting individuals and families experiencing or at risk of experiencing homelessness and/or hunger, regardless of their immigration status; and • Track 2: EFSP-H, which provides funding to assist migrants encountered by DHS at the southern border.40​
​
As explained below, those funds were never designed for disaster victims.

Further down in that thread Noodle said:

Emergency Food and Shelter fund has NOTHING to do with natural disasters. It was program that's existed since the 80s to deal with general homelessness. And contrary to it's name, has nothing to do with 'Emergencies'.. Other than if you are personally homeless or hungry that's a bit of of an emergency.​

And he linked below from a fairly anti-illegal immigration group:


It seems obvious congress intended for FEMA to assist migrants.
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
No. The 1983 fund was about homelessness. There was no requirement about the cause of homelessness. It just had to be an emergency.

The 2022 legislation was about migrants.
Click to expand...
So clearly you never clicked on the links, or even what I shared.

  • Track 1: EFSP, which funds the primary mission of assisting individuals and families experiencing or at risk of experiencing homelessness and/or hunger, regardless of their immigration status; and • Track 2: EFSP-H, which provides funding to assist migrants encountered by DHS at the southern border.40
Tell me where the word disaster is?

From Twenty's link (I think I said Noodle above):

The FEMA Emergency Food and Shelter Program (ESFP). The FEMA migrant-spending program began as an offshoot of a Reagan-era plan called the Emergency Food and Shelter Program (EFSP). EFSP had the goal of providing aid to homeless Americans, most notably the elderly, handicapped, families with kids, Native Americans, and (especially) veterans.​
​
Tell me where the word disaster is.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
Disaster is not there. Emergency is. Mayorkas used funds intended for domestic homelessness (for any treason) and gave those funds to Denver and other places to cope with migrants who were technically, “homeless” but only because they voluntarily left their homes. Mayorkas said often that such people had a “right” to come here, so he used his discretionary funds to pay for his and Biden’s political mistake. Then he played hide the ball knowing that people would be outraged. So much for open and transparent government.

Then Mayorkas posted a stupid denial on the FEMA web site. More hide the ball.

You fell for all of this.

I posted about this days ago.

Buh bye.
Click to expand...

Why do you Always ignore any link that you don't agree with. I hate dunking on you this easily, but again. Twenty linked it, I linked it, you just know better than CIS and Congressional Research Service.

In FY2023, Congress directed CBP and FEMA to establish a new Shelter and Services Program (SSP) to replace the EFSP-H. The EFSP-H continued to operate while FEMA and CBP worked to establish the new SSP. FEMA and CBP have stated that the plan is to phase out the EFSP-H. DHS/FEMA made the first tranche of SSP funding available in June 2023 and made the second tranche of SSP funding available in August 2023.​

Address that paragraph without the "I am CO and I know everything and never need to link any corresponding proof".
 
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CO. Hoosier said:
The Emergency food and shelter fund still exists—as a FEMA fund . If your link says otherwise, the link is wrong.
Click to expand...
And it is for EMERGENCIES and not DISASTERS and is being done away with. But the big thing, again, is this:

On March 15, 2022, the President signed into law the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act, 2022 (Public Law No: 117-103). Provisions of the law provide $150 million to the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s (FEMA) Emergency Food and Shelter Program (EFSP) to help defray the costs that state and local service agencies (non-profit, faith- based, and governmental) have or may incur in providing shelter and other services to families and individuals encountered by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).​

That is from FY22, and look at what it says. It in NO WAY mentions disasters. The fund was never about disasters, YOU infer it since FEMA runs it. When Reagan created it, it was created as part of a jobs bill to provide relief to ANYONE experiencing homelessness. This has been linked many times and you ignore it.

Below is from a FEMA booklet the United Way published in 2012, bolding mine:

The Emergency Food and Shelter Program (EFSP) was created in 1983 to supplement and expand the work of local social service agencies, both nonprofit and governmental, in an effort to help people with economic emergencies (not disaster-related [i.e., fires of any kind, floods, tornadoes, etc.] emergencies). Therefore, EFSP funds are not to be used to provide emergency assistance for circumstances that are the immediate result of a disaster situation. EFSP funds may be used to provide economic assistance in the long term, even if the current circumstances may have been impacted by an earlier disaster occurrence. The EFSP funding is open to all organizations helping hungry and homeless people. EFSP funds must be used to supplement feeding, sheltering (including transitional sheltering) and rent/mortgage and utility assistance efforts only.​
​

And in 2023, Congress specifically tasked it to take on the border, the PDF I have linked several time from the Congressional Research Service.

Congress created a program to help all homeless without the need of a disaster, then they voted to apply it specifically to migrants. How is that confusing?
 
Marvin the Martian said:
And it is for EMERGENCIES and not DISASTERS and is being done away with. But the big thing, again, is this:

On March 15, 2022, the President signed into law the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act, 2022 (Public Law No: 117-103). Provisions of the law provide $150 million to the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s (FEMA) Emergency Food and Shelter Program (EFSP) to help defray the costs that state and local service agencies (non-profit, faith- based, and governmental) have or may incur in providing shelter and other services to families and individuals encountered by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).​

That is from FY22, and look at what it says. It in NO WAY mentions disasters. The fund was never about disasters, YOU infer it since FEMA runs it. When Reagan created it, it was created as part of a jobs bill to provide relief to ANYONE experiencing homelessness. This has been linked many times and you ignore it.

Below is from a FEMA booklet the United Way published in 2012, bolding mine:

The Emergency Food and Shelter Program (EFSP) was created in 1983 to supplement and expand the work of local social service agencies, both nonprofit and governmental, in an effort to help people with economic emergencies (not disaster-related [i.e., fires of any kind, floods, tornadoes, etc.] emergencies). Therefore, EFSP funds are not to be used to provide emergency assistance for circumstances that are the immediate result of a disaster situation. EFSP funds may be used to provide economic assistance in the long term, even if the current circumstances may have been impacted by an earlier disaster occurrence. The EFSP funding is open to all organizations helping hungry and homeless people. EFSP funds must be used to supplement feeding, sheltering (including transitional sheltering) and rent/mortgage and utility assistance efforts only.​
​

And in 2023, Congress specifically tasked it to take on the border, the PDF I have linked several time from the Congressional Research Service.

Congress created a program to help all homeless without the need of a disaster, then they voted to apply it specifically to migrants. How is that confusing?
Click to expand...
Well, I apologize for my role in ruining this thread.

The point is the FEMA red tape. DeSantis spoke of it this morning and how it slowed down debris removal from Helene. It is an issue.

So, I’m gonna delete my off topic posts.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
Well, I apologize for my role in ruining this thread.

The point is the FEMA red tape. DeSantis spoke of it this morning and how it slowed down debris removal from Helene. It is an issue.

So, I’m gonna delete my off topic posts.
Click to expand...
I'd be curious to see what the "red tape" is. It's easy to say "it doesn't matter. Get it all cleaned up now!". But the reality is there is probably stuff in that debris that needs to be carefully cleaned up. Gas/oil tankers and other chemicals. Also human remains unfortunately. Finding remains certainly takes a specific clean up crew.

You don't want to fix one disaster by creating another.
 
Marvin the Martian said:
Further down in that thread Noodle said:

Emergency Food and Shelter fund has NOTHING to do with natural disasters. It was program that's existed since the 80s to deal with general homelessness. And contrary to it's name, has nothing to do with 'Emergencies'.. Other than if you are personally homeless or hungry that's a bit of of an emergency.​

And he linked below from a fairly anti-illegal immigration group:


It seems obvious congress intended for FEMA to assist migrants.
Click to expand...

I said that? Where?
 
Guess who needs a refill?

640px-Butthurt_ointment.png
 
mrhighlife said:
I'd be curious to see what the "red tape" is. It's easy to say "it doesn't matter. Get it all cleaned up now!". But the reality is there is probably stuff in that debris that needs to be carefully cleaned up. Gas/oil tankers and other chemicals. Also human remains unfortunately. Finding remains certainly takes a specific clean up crew.

You don't want to fix one disaster by creating another.
Click to expand...
I linked most of it.

Yes, there are various kinds of debris. Most of it is broken trees and household items the residents piled up along residential streets. No need for the elaborate red tape or the occasional can of paint in these debris.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
I linked most of it.

Yes, there are various kinds of debris. Most of it is broken trees and household items the residents piled up along residential streets. No need for the elaborate red tape or the occasional can of paint in these debris.
Click to expand...
Largely I agree that red tape is less needed. But there are concerns of scammers. Florida is about to become inundated with people out to make a buck by hook or crook. So there has to be enough red tape to know they actually 1) remove debris 2) put it where it is supposed to go 3) no how to handle any dangerous chemicals they find. And you probably don't want someone cutting down trees from a nearby forest or looting homes of couches just because they are close to any dump sites and thus they can make many more trips.

Otherwise, to be completely honest, you hit the problem Minnesota had with its program to feed kids. Anyone can say they are doing the work, the trick is it is actually done and done properly.

Oh, and the documentation makes it clear contractors are paid by items, not by the hour. I suspect that becomes important when time for payment comes.
 
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