There is a lot of love hate about him on this board. I do not hate him. I just think he is in over his head. I do believe he has done decent job for what he has had. What he has is on him. I think CTC would make a great coach in Division one BB. If you stop to think about it he has had only one real good season. That was when he had D.Wade. He has been riding his coat tails every since. He had a final four team a couple of years ago maybe a even a Champion if he knew how to play a zone. So go ahead CTC lovers and rip me. I am 80 years old and can take it.
CTC
- Thread starter darrellpike
- Start date
We can sit here and debate this until we are blue in the face
Nothing said on here is going to presuade you to 100% support CTC as the coach and nothing anybody else is going to say to presuade "Apologists" to be against CTC. He is not going to be fired unless the team is a complete dumpster fire or there is off the court issues again. We might as well just discuss something else like the weather or politics I guess.
Nothing said on here is going to presuade you to 100% support CTC as the coach and nothing anybody else is going to say to presuade "Apologists" to be against CTC. He is not going to be fired unless the team is a complete dumpster fire or there is off the court issues again. We might as well just discuss something else like the weather or politics I guess.
Re: We can sit here and debate this until we are blue in the face
It's really cold here, everyone has got some kind of cold. Watched the Bruins almost blow a huge lead to Stanford last night. Listening to Walton gives me a headache to go with the cold. I like Purdue's team, they're coming. Republicans don't have a prayer in a nationwide election, just too restrictive in their thinking, Bill back to the Oval Office, again.
It's really cold here, everyone has got some kind of cold. Watched the Bruins almost blow a huge lead to Stanford last night. Listening to Walton gives me a headache to go with the cold. I like Purdue's team, they're coming. Republicans don't have a prayer in a nationwide election, just too restrictive in their thinking, Bill back to the Oval Office, again.
I'm just impressed an 80 year old knows how to post on a message board...
My dad is 80, and he has no interest to learn how to use a computer/tablet/smart phone. Drives me nuts.
My dad is 80, and he has no interest to learn how to use a computer/tablet/smart phone. Drives me nuts.
Darrell...
You are a wise man and I like the fact that you are posting to a message board at 80. God bless ya.
I think you are right about CTC, but I can also see why there are those that are loyal to CTC. He brought IU back a very dark place. He was inspirational. He was emotional. He was charismatic. He rallied a fan base. Unfortunately, he's not the best basketball coach...not even close. We were hoping that his recruiting would overshadow his shortcomings in program management and game management. But it doesn't appear that he is going to be able to sustain the recruiting prowess that he showed at times. He does seem to be pretty good at player development, but without a big man or big men, we are still severely limited far too often. Quite the dilemma...but I agree with you.
You are a wise man and I like the fact that you are posting to a message board at 80. God bless ya.
I think you are right about CTC, but I can also see why there are those that are loyal to CTC. He brought IU back a very dark place. He was inspirational. He was emotional. He was charismatic. He rallied a fan base. Unfortunately, he's not the best basketball coach...not even close. We were hoping that his recruiting would overshadow his shortcomings in program management and game management. But it doesn't appear that he is going to be able to sustain the recruiting prowess that he showed at times. He does seem to be pretty good at player development, but without a big man or big men, we are still severely limited far too often. Quite the dilemma...but I agree with you.
Re: Darrell...
It appears recruiting has now fallen off so he won't have that to overshadow his coaching. If he stays the season like we are having now is about the best we can hope for moving forward IMO. If Fred glass is fine with that then don't expect any big ten titles in the near future.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
It appears recruiting has now fallen off so he won't have that to overshadow his coaching. If he stays the season like we are having now is about the best we can hope for moving forward IMO. If Fred glass is fine with that then don't expect any big ten titles in the near future.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Re: I'm just impressed an 80 year old knows how to post on a message board...
you beat me to it!
Would love to see my grandpa on the message board! lol
But he's 91 and never had a computer or smartphone. But he knows basketball and would put most of these people to shame.
you beat me to it!
Would love to see my grandpa on the message board! lol
But he's 91 and never had a computer or smartphone. But he knows basketball and would put most of these people to shame.
Re: Darrell...
Yep, i agree that the "new normal" would be a yearly bubble team, no different than the other group of B1G teams in the second tier.
Maybe that's where IU would have naturally fallen had it not been for RMK?? Maybe we need to face reality??
I dunno, I still think IU should shoot for elite status in College Basketball. Why should IU be any different than Duke, Kansas, or North Carolina? Leadership is essential. Great coaching is essential. I'd like to see IU make another run at a better coach before ever "settling" for bubble status as the status quo. Don't go down without a fight!
"Don't give up, Don't ever give up!" - Jimmy Valvano
Yep, i agree that the "new normal" would be a yearly bubble team, no different than the other group of B1G teams in the second tier.
Maybe that's where IU would have naturally fallen had it not been for RMK?? Maybe we need to face reality??
I dunno, I still think IU should shoot for elite status in College Basketball. Why should IU be any different than Duke, Kansas, or North Carolina? Leadership is essential. Great coaching is essential. I'd like to see IU make another run at a better coach before ever "settling" for bubble status as the status quo. Don't go down without a fight!
"Don't give up, Don't ever give up!" - Jimmy Valvano
Re: We can sit here and debate this until we are blue in the face
Is Bill eligible or do you mean Billary?
Is Bill eligible or do you mean Billary?
Re: I'm just impressed an 80 year old knows how to post on a message board...
Maybe you can post for your grandpa. He could talk and you could type. Thanks for what you said. I did get a smart phone last month. Man is tough. Love IU BB Go HOOSIERS
Maybe you can post for your grandpa. He could talk and you could type. Thanks for what you said. I did get a smart phone last month. Man is tough. Love IU BB Go HOOSIERS
Re: I'm just impressed an 80 year old knows how to post on a message board...
Good for you! Smart phones can be tough to get the hang of, but they can also be a lot of fun and make things a little easier if you learn to text with family and friends and follow sports, stocks, news, etc. They have the Iphone6+, which is bigger and might be easier if you have trouble using a smaller phone. Look forward to chatting with ya.
Good for you! Smart phones can be tough to get the hang of, but they can also be a lot of fun and make things a little easier if you learn to text with family and friends and follow sports, stocks, news, etc. They have the Iphone6+, which is bigger and might be easier if you have trouble using a smaller phone. Look forward to chatting with ya.
As a 72 year old, I agree with much of Darrell's post. I agree that CTC is not a great coach and as Hoosiers with a history of RMK, we don't accept being out-coached very well. Personally his substitution patterns drive me crazy as he takes "hot" players (like Hartman and Williams) out when he should be leaving them in. CTC doesn't seem to realize that his best players setting on the bench is a disincentive for doing well. At press conferences CTC should be asked to explain his thinking on substituting.
Damned good point! I wish the older guys would post more and shut up some of these guys that can't remember before 2002!
Re: I'm just impressed an 80 year old knows how to post on a message board...
I do know how to text and take pictures. That may be enough
I do know how to text and take pictures. That may be enough
Re: I'm just impressed an 80 year old knows how to post on a message board...
Yah, that should be good enough. I've been trying to get my mom and dad to text for years, and they just came around this past week. A good way to stay in touch, if even just a few words here and there.
Yah, that should be good enough. I've been trying to get my mom and dad to text for years, and they just came around this past week. A good way to stay in touch, if even just a few words here and there.
I have a computer customer who will be 103 in May...
Granted, He doesn't do a lot on the computer except check his stocks and make a newsletter.... but still.
Granted, He doesn't do a lot on the computer except check his stocks and make a newsletter.... but still.
I have never seen anyone suggest he is an elite coach
Ironically, as divided as people are over whether they appear to be "pro" or "anti crean", both sides appear to me to be a lot closer than they realize.
It isn't anyone's opinion of what kind of coach he is, but rather what should be done, and what should be acceptable at IU.
Maybe I am off base here, but it seems that there are largely two sides to the coin:
Tails:
Tom Crean isn't an elite coach. However, we should just let this play out. He isn't going anywhere so we should just support him, the program and the team. There are probably 4-5 coaches just in the Big Ten that are better than him, but who can we get that is any better than him? What we need is stability. I am afraid what would happen if we replaced him, we might stink next year, and I think we can be pretty good next year.
Heads:
Tom Crean isn't an elite coach. IU is a special program that demands elite status, and an elite coach. If we were KY, KU, UNC, etc, he would have already been fired. When I watch IU I root for them to win, however I also see that our program is balancing on the edge of long term lameness. I don;t want to have IU basketball be on par with Minnesota, Illinois, or Purdue. And unless a change is made, that is what we will become.
Ironically, as divided as people are over whether they appear to be "pro" or "anti crean", both sides appear to me to be a lot closer than they realize.
It isn't anyone's opinion of what kind of coach he is, but rather what should be done, and what should be acceptable at IU.
Maybe I am off base here, but it seems that there are largely two sides to the coin:
Tails:
Tom Crean isn't an elite coach. However, we should just let this play out. He isn't going anywhere so we should just support him, the program and the team. There are probably 4-5 coaches just in the Big Ten that are better than him, but who can we get that is any better than him? What we need is stability. I am afraid what would happen if we replaced him, we might stink next year, and I think we can be pretty good next year.
Heads:
Tom Crean isn't an elite coach. IU is a special program that demands elite status, and an elite coach. If we were KY, KU, UNC, etc, he would have already been fired. When I watch IU I root for them to win, however I also see that our program is balancing on the edge of long term lameness. I don;t want to have IU basketball be on par with Minnesota, Illinois, or Purdue. And unless a change is made, that is what we will become.
he had two good season at IU
Or is winning the first conference championship in 20 years not considered a good year. The ending was a disappointment but that does not make that season as a whole a bad season. I know the goal is to go past the sweet 16 but getting there especially the first year should be considered a very good season because that team before the season was considered a bubble team.
Or is winning the first conference championship in 20 years not considered a good year. The ending was a disappointment but that does not make that season as a whole a bad season. I know the goal is to go past the sweet 16 but getting there especially the first year should be considered a very good season because that team before the season was considered a bubble team.
That other good season was 5th place finish
with a defense that finished 157th in points allowed and 84th in efficiency...and you say our standards havent fallen?
with a defense that finished 157th in points allowed and 84th in efficiency...and you say our standards havent fallen?
When were we an elite program?
Except for 2002 and the 2012-2013 season, we haven't been elite since '93-'94. One good year doesn't make you elite. We had the greatest coach ever, the worst coach, and the most crooked coach in the last 20 years. The worst coach took us to the best finish since 1987. How do we become elite?
All coaches can be successful. Elite coaches need the right players. We need a coach that attracts players. Teenage boys will decide what is cool and what program will be elite. Wow them with fancy living arrangements, introduce them to famous people, tell them they will have an easy time in the classroom and we can be elite again with a mediocre coach. That seems to be what it takes today.
If you want an elite coach, that means he has won a national championship. Pitino, Calipari, Boeheim, Tubby Smith, Calhoun,Coach K, Izzo, Belein, Self, Roy Williams, Crum? Which one do you want? Everyone else is an elite coach in waiting, just like CTC.
I am all for a new coach. Guarantee he is better that what we had before and I will support it. I want to be part of the search committee.
Except for 2002 and the 2012-2013 season, we haven't been elite since '93-'94. One good year doesn't make you elite. We had the greatest coach ever, the worst coach, and the most crooked coach in the last 20 years. The worst coach took us to the best finish since 1987. How do we become elite?
All coaches can be successful. Elite coaches need the right players. We need a coach that attracts players. Teenage boys will decide what is cool and what program will be elite. Wow them with fancy living arrangements, introduce them to famous people, tell them they will have an easy time in the classroom and we can be elite again with a mediocre coach. That seems to be what it takes today.
If you want an elite coach, that means he has won a national championship. Pitino, Calipari, Boeheim, Tubby Smith, Calhoun,Coach K, Izzo, Belein, Self, Roy Williams, Crum? Which one do you want? Everyone else is an elite coach in waiting, just like CTC.
I am all for a new coach. Guarantee he is better that what we had before and I will support it. I want to be part of the search committee.
That team was not expected to do much that year
as well and was thought of an NIT team. they were a 5th seed which is not great but better than expected and played UK as well as anyone during that tournament.
as well and was thought of an NIT team. they were a 5th seed which is not great but better than expected and played UK as well as anyone during that tournament.
If you are talking 2011-12 season
then they far exceeded any expectations for that year. The next season we won the conference plus being a #1 seed so to say that season was not successful is not fair. Yes the ending was disappointing but the season as a whole was not.
then they far exceeded any expectations for that year. The next season we won the conference plus being a #1 seed so to say that season was not successful is not fair. Yes the ending was disappointing but the season as a whole was not.
At least your grandfather is still alive
both of mine passed away before I was even born and never had the opportunity to do things with them like fishing or watching sports together.
This post was edited on 2/6 2:42 PM by IU Scott
both of mine passed away before I was even born and never had the opportunity to do things with them like fishing or watching sports together.
This post was edited on 2/6 2:42 PM by IU Scott
Preseason expectations yes. In reality it ended up
about how it should have. Cody brought more as a freshman than expected. They played their way to a 4 seed and got to the sweet 16. About right. Nice year. Reason to feel optimistic for 2012-2013.
about how it should have. Cody brought more as a freshman than expected. They played their way to a 4 seed and got to the sweet 16. About right. Nice year. Reason to feel optimistic for 2012-2013.
Re: When were we an elite program?
I would agree with you that elite players can lead to elite coaches, ones who have won an NCAA Championship. Indiana got its reputation as an elite basketball school by winning 5 NCAA Championships. I would say we've had two elite coaches based on that record.
The question is,....Can a school lose the elite status without the coach also losing the same? To give you a for instance, there was a study a couple years back which rated the coaches who had never won an NCAA Championship, Brad Stevens was like 16th or 17th rated.
The higher rated coaches tended to be older ones, mostly retired like Gene Keady. The chances of IU ever hiring an elite coach is minimal at best. The odds of a coach becoming elite at IU, in my estimation, are better. That's why I believe IU is a favored destination for any coach not seen as elite. Their chances of luring a coach who has already won the big one is very minimal.
I would agree with you that elite players can lead to elite coaches, ones who have won an NCAA Championship. Indiana got its reputation as an elite basketball school by winning 5 NCAA Championships. I would say we've had two elite coaches based on that record.
The question is,....Can a school lose the elite status without the coach also losing the same? To give you a for instance, there was a study a couple years back which rated the coaches who had never won an NCAA Championship, Brad Stevens was like 16th or 17th rated.
The higher rated coaches tended to be older ones, mostly retired like Gene Keady. The chances of IU ever hiring an elite coach is minimal at best. The odds of a coach becoming elite at IU, in my estimation, are better. That's why I believe IU is a favored destination for any coach not seen as elite. Their chances of luring a coach who has already won the big one is very minimal.
It was an OK finish outside of IU sycophants
I don't care where they were expected to finish, mainly because I don't care that TC has lowered the bar so far down that finishing 5th is still being touted 3yrs later
But you re right, 5th place with one of the worst defenses of all the BCS teams is a good season for TC..its right on his career average...of course when discussing that type of season during the late 90's it was considered the start of IUs decline. Definitely was considered brag worthy back then nor now
I wish my boss graded me like many grade TC. He sets the bar low and then when he doesn't meet it he just sets lower and many fans are fine with it
2011-12 was a good season compared to the previous 3 years but it was just a meh year if you aren't an IU fan. Its the opposite of the 2013-14 season, middling regular season kinda strong tourney run...as opposed to to strong regular season and disappointment in the NCAAT.
I sometimes wonder if you, Jimmy, and Outa truly believe some of the junk you post, then I realize that you probably do and as an IU fan that makes me sad
This post was edited on 2/6 3:31 PM by missionale
I don't care where they were expected to finish, mainly because I don't care that TC has lowered the bar so far down that finishing 5th is still being touted 3yrs later
But you re right, 5th place with one of the worst defenses of all the BCS teams is a good season for TC..its right on his career average...of course when discussing that type of season during the late 90's it was considered the start of IUs decline. Definitely was considered brag worthy back then nor now
I wish my boss graded me like many grade TC. He sets the bar low and then when he doesn't meet it he just sets lower and many fans are fine with it
2011-12 was a good season compared to the previous 3 years but it was just a meh year if you aren't an IU fan. Its the opposite of the 2013-14 season, middling regular season kinda strong tourney run...as opposed to to strong regular season and disappointment in the NCAAT.
I sometimes wonder if you, Jimmy, and Outa truly believe some of the junk you post, then I realize that you probably do and as an IU fan that makes me sad
This post was edited on 2/6 3:31 PM by missionale
you are spot on.
yes there may be some outliers, but I think the bulk of Hooisier united fit the MO as you lay it out. And there are several points of agreement within the two but each parting ways on nuances.
My own nuance is that while I didn't want Crean in the first place I am very happy with the work he's done for the program as a whole. He is weak on court, but he's also shown a willingness to change and push to find answers for problems he can't solve himself (we are not the same team we were last year or the year before and it's not all due to personnel). He still has issues with in-game adjustments but several times his game plans have been very sound. You have to admit, for being undersized, we've got a better record than we deserve.
My only objection is the constant drone by some of the "heads" crowd. Yes, we are not what we want to be. Agree, Crean is most likely not the guy to to get us there. OK. Now can we all calm down and try to enjoy what bits we can enjoy?
yes there may be some outliers, but I think the bulk of Hooisier united fit the MO as you lay it out. And there are several points of agreement within the two but each parting ways on nuances.
My own nuance is that while I didn't want Crean in the first place I am very happy with the work he's done for the program as a whole. He is weak on court, but he's also shown a willingness to change and push to find answers for problems he can't solve himself (we are not the same team we were last year or the year before and it's not all due to personnel). He still has issues with in-game adjustments but several times his game plans have been very sound. You have to admit, for being undersized, we've got a better record than we deserve.
My only objection is the constant drone by some of the "heads" crowd. Yes, we are not what we want to be. Agree, Crean is most likely not the guy to to get us there. OK. Now can we all calm down and try to enjoy what bits we can enjoy?
Re: At least your grandfather is still alive
That is a shame Scott. I had one grandfather and we fished to geather a lot. In fact I have a camper up by Hayward ws. We fished at the same lake back in the late 40's. When I go there it brings back tons of good memories. It is place that you can go and for get the bad games like at Purdue last week. I am hoping we can go 5 and 3 these last games
That is a shame Scott. I had one grandfather and we fished to geather a lot. In fact I have a camper up by Hayward ws. We fished at the same lake back in the late 40's. When I go there it brings back tons of good memories. It is place that you can go and for get the bad games like at Purdue last week. I am hoping we can go 5 and 3 these last games
Re: I have never seen anyone suggest he is an elite coach
I think it can be said IU has never hired an elite coach, however we've had two become elite after taking over the reins of IU basketball and winning a total of 5 NCAA Championships.
I've not given up that Crean can't be another to make it happen at IU, but then, I've never been one to give up easily. What I don't want to see is a parade of BB coaches at IU as we've seen in football. Has anyone ever wondered why we expect Crean to get the basketball program back to where the football program has rarely been, and after having to start from as close to zero as possible.
I think it can be said IU has never hired an elite coach, however we've had two become elite after taking over the reins of IU basketball and winning a total of 5 NCAA Championships.
I've not given up that Crean can't be another to make it happen at IU, but then, I've never been one to give up easily. What I don't want to see is a parade of BB coaches at IU as we've seen in football. Has anyone ever wondered why we expect Crean to get the basketball program back to where the football program has rarely been, and after having to start from as close to zero as possible.
I am not saying that I think CTC is a great coach
and if they want to make a change then I would be all for it but he is our coach and I will back him trough the good and the bad. What makes me sad is that some of you guys are acting like UK fans at win at all cost attitude that we use to disdain but now we are no better than their fan base,
Yes the 2011-2012 is not a great season but compared to what it was the previous 3 season it was great boost to the program and it appeared that we had turned the corner. If you are comparing it to the glory years then no it was not a great season but trying to compare the program now to where it use to be is not fair as well. Do I wish we were still winning like we were when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's? hell us but I am not going to turn my back on the program that I have backed for over 40 years.
This post was edited on 2/6 3:49 PM by IU Scott
and if they want to make a change then I would be all for it but he is our coach and I will back him trough the good and the bad. What makes me sad is that some of you guys are acting like UK fans at win at all cost attitude that we use to disdain but now we are no better than their fan base,
Yes the 2011-2012 is not a great season but compared to what it was the previous 3 season it was great boost to the program and it appeared that we had turned the corner. If you are comparing it to the glory years then no it was not a great season but trying to compare the program now to where it use to be is not fair as well. Do I wish we were still winning like we were when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's? hell us but I am not going to turn my back on the program that I have backed for over 40 years.
This post was edited on 2/6 3:49 PM by IU Scott
Great post
I am glad that we can have good discussion and even disagree with our views on the program. I also like seeing different generations on here to get a better perspective on things and the different point of views.
I am glad that we can have good discussion and even disagree with our views on the program. I also like seeing different generations on here to get a better perspective on things and the different point of views.
Where do you get this crap?
Win at all costs? Since you can't win a debate on why IU should keep an average coach you decide to insult the opposing view. Having high expectations is not a win at all costs attitude
You aren't turning your back on the program, thus inferring that those with opposing vies are? Nice, again you can't win the debate so you turn to insults
I'm not comparing 11-12 to the glory years, because that would be foolish. I am comparing it to the RMK, "down decade" and it is fits right in...and RMKs last few years werent as good as we hoped, nor as bad as many like to think.....but why is a 5th place finish then a down year but a "good season" now?
I'm also not comparing 11-12 to the 3 previous years...nice of you to set the bar on the ground for TC to jump over
Win at all costs? Since you can't win a debate on why IU should keep an average coach you decide to insult the opposing view. Having high expectations is not a win at all costs attitude
You aren't turning your back on the program, thus inferring that those with opposing vies are? Nice, again you can't win the debate so you turn to insults
I'm not comparing 11-12 to the glory years, because that would be foolish. I am comparing it to the RMK, "down decade" and it is fits right in...and RMKs last few years werent as good as we hoped, nor as bad as many like to think.....but why is a 5th place finish then a down year but a "good season" now?
I'm also not comparing 11-12 to the 3 previous years...nice of you to set the bar on the ground for TC to jump over
And 700 days from now...
...I imagine we'll still be having this discussion. Continuity can be very comforting..
...I imagine we'll still be having this discussion. Continuity can be very comforting..
Re: And 700 days from now...
You can say we won the first big ten title in 20 years until your blue in the face. Given that team we should have and nobody cares anymore. People are looking to the future and most don't like what they see.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
You can say we won the first big ten title in 20 years until your blue in the face. Given that team we should have and nobody cares anymore. People are looking to the future and most don't like what they see.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
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