ADVERTISEMENT

Chiefs fans

I think it's really interesting that two posters I respect as much as I do you and Ranger are both certain that there is racism and white privilege at work to some degree in American society, but are just as equally certain that it could not possibly be at work in the parts of American society that you come from.
I just saw it every day for many years. In many places. . I saw blacks charged, adjudicated, and sentenced and the only difference I ever saw in outcomes was whether they had a lawyer or didn’t have a lawyer. Race was never an issue; black or white. Money was always an issue.

Cars are 30k. Houses are 300k. A felony dwi lawyer fee is $7,500. To me the biggest threat to our country, after the US women’s national soccer team and its endless demands, is the growing financial inequality that touches so much of our lives.

I think what many call racism isn’t racism it’s disparate impact. And it’s not semantics. It may be a product of historical racism but today it’s impact not racism
 
Last edited:
How about a real life example. Some White Kids were sent out to vandalize a park, some Black kids were sent out to vandalize a park. Not only did many more people call the police on the Black kids, they called the police on the family of one of the actors sleeping in a car "looking like they were about to rob". One call to 911 about White vandals in the park, 2 calls about Blacks sleeping in a car.

Yes. Profiling for sure includes racism
 
I think it's really interesting that two posters I respect as much as I do you and Ranger are both certain that there is racism and white privilege at work to some degree in American society, but are just as equally certain that it could not possibly be at work in the parts of American society that you come from.
That’s not at all what I said. There’s racism everywhere. I’m saying this combat arms “articles” that Marv linked are nonsense.

On edit: why don’t you read the farcical article Marv posted and online on its contents rather than Jack Handey your way into this?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think this proves it was never about the Anthem.

Then does this prove that it was never about what you think it is about?


Riots hit Lancaster, PA after police shot a Hispanic man who was going to stand trial next week for a stabbing spree in 2019 of four random people
 
  • Like
Reactions: ulrey
I think it's really interesting that two posters I respect as much as I do you and Ranger are both certain that there is racism and white privilege at work to some degree in American society, but are just as equally certain that it could not possibly be at work in the parts of American society that you come from.
And I think it’s “interesting” (to use your aggressive passive/aggressive wording) that a smart guy like Marv really blames everything on Racism!
 
There are a lot of studies where they try to account for skin color. A basic one, they show people photographs and ask them to judge the person. Let's say one of the photos is of me. The same photo may be darkened for some people. Inevitably people rate the person in the darker photo less well. I really don't know how to suggest that is anything but racism.

Now, is it a stretch to say that this happens in law? Are judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, jurors immune to this?

Here is a more advanced study, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2555431/. In this one they showed photos and found more activity in the amygdala when people see photos of Blacks. The amygdala triggers the fight or flight mechanism. If the amygdala perceives darker skin as a threat, how does that not transfer to the judicial system?

I think most people use their higher brain functions to try and overcome the bias built deep into our brains (the amygdala is one of the oldest/most primitive parts of the brain). But that means 1) we have to recognize that such bias exists and 2) that we care to address that bias. And I do think most people care if they can be convinced the bias exists. But someone sitting in a judges chair fully confident they have zero bias? I don't think they are going to overcome their bias.

There are lots of other studies that attempt to find racism since most people aren't going to admit anything. But measuring brain waves seems like a good way of doing it, it is hard to refute the fight or flight mechanism being triggered.
You want to wire up the judges?
 
And I think it’s “interesting” (to use your aggressive passive/aggressive wording) that a smart guy like Marv really blames everything on Racism!

Awfully triggered you are, Ranger. Looks like I touched a nerve. I've never been accused of being passive/aggressive so I appreciate the suggestion that I'm still evolving. ;)

I respect Marv a lot, too, but I don't see him blaming everything on Racism!, which I'll add to Cancel Culture! as things you aren't able to discuss with anything other than defensiveness and lack of introspection.

I see Marvin attempting to listen to and understand the experiences of others and seeing some examples of racism in them. That's a far cry from blaming everything on Racism! It's akin to suggesting that you deny the existence of racism anywhere. It wouldn't be fair to you to do so. I'm not sure why you think it's fair to treat Marv similarly.
 
How about a real life example. Some White Kids were sent out to vandalize a park, some Black kids were sent out to vandalize a park. Not only did many more people call the police on the Black kids, they called the police on the family of one of the actors sleeping in a car "looking like they were about to rob". One call to 911 about White vandals in the park, 2 calls about Blacks sleeping in a car.

We need to hear interviews of all those who did not report the white kids and why not. Is this an example of white privilege? We need to know more.

Do you agree those who reported the black kids did the right thing?

I probably would not have reported either group. If either group were vandalizing more than one car, I definitely would have reported it.
 
Awfully triggered you are, Ranger. Looks like I touched a nerve. I've never been accused of being passive/aggressive so I appreciate the suggestion that I'm still evolving. ;)

I respect Marv a lot, too, but I don't see him blaming everything on Racism!, which I'll add to Cancel Culture! as things you aren't able to discuss with anything other than defensiveness and lack of introspection.

I see Marvin attempting to listen to and understand the experiences of others and seeing some examples of racism in them. That's a far cry from blaming everything on Racism! It's akin to suggesting that you deny the existence of racism anywhere. It wouldn't be fair to you to do so. I'm not sure why you think it's fair to treat Marv similarly.
Hogwash. All of it. This whole thread is about inventing racism everywhere one possibly can. Marv knows nothing of military service in combat arms yet he finds it racist that there aren’t as many black General officers. Marv’s own linked articles easily explain why certain people are arrested more than others, yet the insinuation is just bigotry.

If all we’re doing in this thread is pointing out that there can be racism in all walks of life, then whoa, what a breakthrough! Let’s all get six packs and talk about how smart we are!

That’s not being triggered, that’s about being annoyed watching smart people turn into parrots.
 
I don’t know of any reasonable person who doesn’t believe that White Privilege exists. It’s the “what do we do about it” and “what is the depth of it” that is subject to arguments amongst reasonable people. And the more that everything is blamed on it is to tune out more reasonable people.

Agree. The modern civil rights effort is focused on critical race theory which has at its core a belief that “white” culture or even “privilege” must be diminished in some fashion. I think that is a mistake. The better approach is to address those factors that prevent blacks from accessing those same privileges. I think this is the heart of MLK’s message.
 
And I think it’s “interesting” (to use your aggressive passive/aggressive wording) that a smart guy like Marv really blames everything on Racism!

I'm not blaming "everything" on racism. Take a look at when I brought up the West Point article, I said "Is there anything to this?" because I thought of anyone here you would be the one to know (except for Bing who hasn't posted in forever but I would love to hear his opinion). That is hardly blaming racism. I wanted to know if you had seen it and had ideas. You answered that Blacks aren't in combat arms in the same percentage as the rest of the jobs. OK, that makes sense. But that just demands we ask, but why not? As far as I know, it MIGHT be racism. It might be a number of things. But I think it is worth finding out why so I googled it. That turned up the article I found on the Army War College site. Neither the Army War College nor West Point are known as hotbeds of radical socialism. It isn't like this was on HuffPo, which I don't read. I don't even go to HuffPo links when I am googling. But I did go to the War College and West Point because I expected they wouldn't be partisan hack jobs.

Why is it blaming racism to wonder why Blacks aren't joining combat arms? If that is where the best advancement is, shouldn't we wonder?
 
So now you’re alleging that both are bigots?

I believe I said that both supported a law that was bigoted for their own reasons. In Reagan's case, the southern strategy. In Biden's case, I have no idea why - maybe he was working on his own southern strategy. Both were willing to court the votes of racists by ignoring others. So both were willing to use bigotry to advance themselves even IF neither was bigoted. Based on the 1986 law alone. So I will amend my remarks to "Reagan and Biden placed the support of white racists over the concerns of Blacks in supporting the 1986 law".

Now, Reagan calling Africans "monkeys" who are still uncomfortable wearing shoes?
 
I'm not blaming "everything" on racism. Take a look at when I brought up the West Point article, I said "Is there anything to this?" because I thought of anyone here you would be the one to know (except for Bing who hasn't posted in forever but I would love to hear his opinion). That is hardly blaming racism. I wanted to know if you had seen it and had ideas. You answered that Blacks aren't in combat arms in the same percentage as the rest of the jobs. OK, that makes sense. But that just demands we ask, but why not? As far as I know, it MIGHT be racism. It might be a number of things. But I think it is worth finding out why so I googled it. That turned up the article I found on the Army War College site. Neither the Army War College nor West Point are known as hotbeds of radical socialism. It isn't like this was on HuffPo, which I don't read. I don't even go to HuffPo links when I am googling. But I did go to the War College and West Point because I expected they wouldn't be partisan hack jobs.

Why is it blaming racism to wonder why Blacks aren't joining combat arms? If that is where the best advancement is, shouldn't we wonder?
Fair and apologies for being harsh. I need to get used to you being an inquisitive guy vs a passive-aggressive guy like most people in my life are.

I have never witnessed racism in the army. I often point to the army as a shining beacon of how society should operate. Once the uniform goes on we are all the same.

The fact is that AAs do not go into combat arms. Period. I don’t believe it’s due to a lack of role models at higher ranks. That doesn’t make sense to me. There have been plenty of role models for all races in the military. Maybe it is to learn other skills and maybe AAs don’t view the military as a career.

But, if West Point black cadet population is same percent as overall population I think we don’t have a racism problem here. Asking a bunch of community leaders in Louisville because that’s where Mohammed Ali is from ain’t exactly a good way to find out.
 
Fair and apologies for being harsh. I need to get used to you being an inquisitive guy vs a passive-aggressive guy like most people in my life are.

I have never witnessed racism in the army. I often point to the army as a shining beacon of how society should operate. Once the uniform goes on we are all the same.

The fact is that AAs do not go into combat arms. Period. I don’t believe it’s due to a lack of role models at higher ranks. That doesn’t make sense to me. There have been plenty of role models for all races in the military. Maybe it is to learn other skills and maybe AAs don’t view the military as a career.

But, if West Point black cadet population is same percent as overall population I think we don’t have a racism problem here. Asking a bunch of community leaders in Louisville because that’s where Mohammed Ali is from ain’t exactly a good way to find out.

Thanks for that reply. As to your second sentence, at every chance I get I give credit Truman for integrating the military. I believe it has had a major positive impact on America's race situation. Which may go to how bad we would have been. I believe most soldiers get along, and that has changed greatly since Vietnam.

And you probably have a point that African-Americans may see the military as a means to a different ends and are not seeking a military career. Maybe someone has studied that and I haven't found it.

Yet I see the polls that say half of the minorities in the service report racism. I honestly am not sure what to make of that poll (https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...emains-a-problem-for-the-military-poll-shows/). Is it that people who tell me otherwise (you and some friends) didn't see it? Is it the minorities are too sensitive? I honestly don't know how to reconcile what seems to be two conflicting thoughts. And this story was literally just released, https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-military-civilrights/.

I suspect we are overall doing well, unfortunately a small group of racists can account for problems beyond their number. One swastika can be seen by 100 people, that doesn't mean 100 different incidents. Yet the Reuters story has me curious. It suggests that bringing a complaint can effectively end a career even if found to be true. Part of me can see that as possible, it appears there is a lot of pressure to just keep your head down in the military. But I certainly don't know if it is accurate. Would there be a bias against a whistle blower?
 
  • Like
Reactions: hoosboot
Thanks for that reply. As to your second sentence, at every chance I get I give credit Truman for integrating the military. I believe it has had a major positive impact on America's race situation. Which may go to how bad we would have been. I believe most soldiers get along, and that has changed greatly since Vietnam.

And you probably have a point that African-Americans may see the military as a means to a different ends and are not seeking a military career. Maybe someone has studied that and I haven't found it.

Yet I see the polls that say half of the minorities in the service report racism. I honestly am not sure what to make of that poll (https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...emains-a-problem-for-the-military-poll-shows/). Is it that people who tell me otherwise (you and some friends) didn't see it? Is it the minorities are too sensitive? I honestly don't know how to reconcile what seems to be two conflicting thoughts. And this story was literally just released, https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-military-civilrights/.

I suspect we are overall doing well, unfortunately a small group of racists can account for problems beyond their number. One swastika can be seen by 100 people, that doesn't mean 100 different incidents. Yet the Reuters story has me curious. It suggests that bringing a complaint can effectively end a career even if found to be true. Part of me can see that as possible, it appears there is a lot of pressure to just keep your head down in the military. But I certainly don't know if it is accurate. Would there be a bias against a whistle blower?
We threw a guy out in 2005 for having questionable tattoos and attitudes. Those weren’t the definitive reason but we watched him like a hawk and the first time he slipped up we pounced and threw him out on his ass. But that was the only guy out of hundreds with whom I worked.

There will always be racism because our world is still chock full of idiots. And of course the Reuter’s article just dropped - racism sells right now. And I suspect to your question above it’s a combination of real racism existing and people being sensitive. There are a lot of southerners in the military and it’s foolish to expect that racism has been eliminated from those ranks.

I get sensitive when discussing the military and service. I get especially sensitive when it’s discussed in the contexts of veteran treatment and racism. I can think of no better opportunity for anybody to escape poverty or destitution than to join the military and gain leadership and/or real world skills. I will also admit that when I see a homeless veteran panhandling with their “veteran” sign that I initially think “my God - all the opportunities he had from his service and this is where he wound up” - which I know is a poor lens. But one can’t help but marvel at the opportunities everybody has in the military and how much easier it can be to parlay that into success outside of the military.
 
I wonder how well FDR rode a bike? How was JFK on stage ramps? Could Lincoln juggle?

Did FDR, JFK, or Lincoln go out of their way to accuse their opponent of being too old and feeble? Trump made mental/physical stamina a campaign issue. He opened that door-just as he did with HRC in 2016.
 
So, does that mean I can assume it's not "Hogwash. All of it."?



Physician, heal thyself.
I don’t much care what you can or can’t assume. Until you wish to jump into a real conversation with anything other than Jack Handey deep thoughts, and lend a real opinion other than that of smarmy liberal broker, I will just be waiting...
 
I don’t much care what you can or can’t assume. Until you wish to jump into a real conversation with anything other than Jack Handey deep thoughts, and lend a real opinion other than that of smarmy liberal broker, I will just be waiting...

I'm flattered. Passive/aggressive and Jack Handey in one thread. I get that it's tough to admit that you were wrong about Marv, but you're off to a good start.

In the meantime, maybe amidst all of your lashing out at people who are interested in listening and considering different points of view, you might listen and consider instead of reflexively denying. One might even call the latter your "narrative".
 
I'm flattered. Passive/aggressive and Jack Handey in one thread. I get that it's tough to admit that you were wrong about Marv, but you're off to a good start.

In the meantime, maybe amidst all of your lashing out at people who are interested in listening and considering different points of view, you might listen and consider instead of reflexively denying. One might even call the latter your "narrative".
Oh I’m not ready to admit that I’m wrong about Marv. I fully believe he’s accusing most of this as racism under veil of inquisitiveness, but he’s a super enough guy that he doesn’t deserve my attitude.

I’m glad you’re flattered. That’s not what I was going for. But I’m generally ineffective and I have a small penis and will soon be called Jan by a guy whose music interests I admire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IUINSB
Oh I’m not ready to admit that I’m wrong about Marv. I fully believe he’s accusing most of this as racism under veil of inquisitiveness, but he’s a super enough guy that he doesn’t deserve my attitude.

I’m glad you’re flattered. That’s not what I was going for. But I’m generally ineffective and I have a small penis and will soon be called Jan by a guy whose music interests I admire.

So, your solution was to emulate their posting style? I figured you as someone more strategic than that. Maybe we'll solve big problems with a torrent of "small penis", "Racist!", "Jan", "parrots", "generally ineffective", "sees everything as racism", "redneck", "out of touch liberal", etc., but I'm skeptical.
 
I don’t know of any reasonable person who doesn’t believe that White Privilege exists. It’s the “what do we do about it” and “what is the depth of it” that is subject to arguments amongst reasonable people. And the more that everything is blamed on it is to tune out more reasonable people.

Have you read this thread? :eek::eek: :rolleyes: Although I'll grant you, you did mitigate your claim by inserting the term "reasonable"... :cool:
 
I just saw it every day for many years. In many places. . I saw blacks charged, adjudicated, and sentenced and the only difference I ever saw in outcomes was whether they had a lawyer or didn’t have a lawyer. Race was never an issue; black or white. Money was always an issue.

Cars are 30k. Houses are 300k. A felony dwi lawyer fee is $7,500. To me the biggest threat to our country, after the US women’s national soccer team and its endless demands, is the growing financial inequality that touches so much of our lives.

I think what many call racism isn’t racism it’s disparate impact. And it’s not semantics. It may be a product of historical racism but today it’s impact not racism

Sorry that I didn't see your thoughtful reply earlier. I think you know that I agree with a lot of what you say about the economic roots of so many of these problems and I appreciate your pushing that issue here because I think talking about it will be how it eventually becomes a policy reality. More than that, I laughed out loud at your USWNT line. That was very well done.

That said, I do think that it's possible that you're overstating the case some that race has never been an issue in the decades that you've been at it, but I understand your perspective on it. And I should probably take a step back and say that my comment wasn't meant to be directed particularly at you and Ranger as much as it was meant to be a comment about how we all think. Friends who bankers don't think race plays a role in their work, stoll doesn't think that race plays a role in his small town, friends who are police officers don't think that there is racist impact in their work, f-ing movie people think our industry is free of racism (give me a break!) So, I think our justice system gets it right the great majority of the time, but I'm under no illusion that it's perfect. It's a human system after all.

After all that, I come back around to that I'd love to here more about your thoughts on disparate impact as opposed to racial impact. It seems semantic to a degree and that's not to dismiss the point you seem to be making at all. That semantic difference might be really important to understanding differing perspectives on it.
 
To me the biggest threat to our country, after the US women’s national soccer team and its endless demands, is the growing financial inequality that touches so much of our lives.

I think what many call racism isn’t racism it’s disparate impact. And it’s not semantics. It may be a product of historical racism but today it’s impact not racism
(1) Regarding the women's soccer team and growing financial inequality . . . interesting juxtaposition of the same issue. That one's got me scratching my head . . . .

(2) Regarding disparate impact . . . disparate impact is part of the legal definition of discrimination on the basis of race, which I'm sure that you know already. How do you draw a distinction between racism and disparate impact? I can think of a couple of ways to do that: (a) racism is the overt expression of animus towards a member of a particular race, whereas (b) disparate impact can be either (i) a legacy of racism as defined in (a), or (ii) the result of a covert expression of animus towards a member of a particular race - think of redlining in housing or mortgage lending. Or it might be more subtle than that . . . disparate impact could be the cumulative effect of (a) and (b) above . . . such as the lack of wealth among Blacks because of generations of housing and employment discrimination.

Which of those, or what other, ways to think of disparate impact are you suggesting?

BTW, in my experience (which is not insignificant), disparate impact is just a way of getting to the point of racism in the face of polite arguments that it ain't overt animus that motivates the discrimination.

BTW2, if you're concern is about the conflation of "racism" and "discrimination", your point is well-taken . . . but that's the risk we all ran when we didn't get it right while the polite words were in vogue.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: hoosboot
Oh I’m not ready to admit that I’m wrong about Marv. I fully believe he’s accusing most of this as racism under veil of inquisitiveness, but he’s a super enough guy that he doesn’t deserve my attitude.

I’m glad you’re flattered. That’s not what I was going for. But I’m generally ineffective and I have a small penis and will soon be called Jan by a guy whose music interests I admire.

Think what you want. I have no idea how much racism may be in the military. I have no reason to dispute you and I assume Aloha's opinions, you know far more about it. Being more ordinary people, I don't know why you would have some bias. Now if the only people telling me things were OK was the Pentagon, then I would question it. One word, Tailhook. People who have a vested interest have a vested interest in covering up a problem.

I do think there were massive problems back during Vietnam. I think the military has made great gains since then.
 
(1) Regarding the women's soccer team and growing financial inequality . . . interesting juxtaposition of the same issue. That one's got me scratching my head . . . .

(2) Regarding disparate impact . . . disparate impact is part of the legal definition of discrimination on the basis of race, which I'm sure that you know already. How do you draw a distinction between racism and disparate impact? I can think of a couple of ways to do that: (a) racism is the overt expression of animus towards a member of a particular race, whereas (b) disparate impact can be either (i) a legacy of racism as defined in (a), or (ii) the result of a covert expression of animus towards a member of a particular race - think of redlining in housing or mortgage lending. Or it might be more subtle than that . . . disparate impact could be the cumulative effect of (a) and (b) above . . . such as the lack of wealth among Blacks because of generations of housing and employment discrimination.

Which of those, or what other, ways to think of disparate impact are you suggesting?

BTW, in my experience (which is not insignificant), disparate impact is just a way of getting to the point of racism in the face of polite arguments that it ain't overt animus that motivates the discrimination.

BTW2, if you're concern is about the conflation of "racism" and "discrimination", your point is well-taken . . . but that's the risk we all ran when we didn't get it right while the polite words were in vogue.

Haha. The USWNT bit was just part of an ongoing joke between me and mcm. He dislikes them so much I'm surprised that he hasn't renamed the cause of the current pandemic The Rapinoe Virus. 😂

That said, I am always interested when you weigh in on legal issues and I think your post suggests what I was wondering about. I'm a little less concerned about what we call it than I am what we do about it, but it feels like a lot of what we are disagreeing about may be the niceties of charged words.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sope Creek
(1) Regarding the women's soccer team and growing financial inequality . . . interesting juxtaposition of the same issue. That one's got me scratching my head . . . .

(2) Regarding disparate impact . . . disparate impact is part of the legal definition of discrimination on the basis of race, which I'm sure that you know already. How do you draw a distinction between racism and disparate impact? I can think of a couple of ways to do that: (a) racism is the overt expression of animus towards a member of a particular race, whereas (b) disparate impact can be either (i) a legacy of racism as defined in (a), or (ii) the result of a covert expression of animus towards a member of a particular race - think of redlining in housing or mortgage lending. Or it might be more subtle than that . . . disparate impact could be the cumulative effect of (a) and (b) above . . . such as the lack of wealth among Blacks because of generations of housing and employment discrimination.

Which of those, or what other, ways to think of disparate impact are you suggesting?

BTW, in my experience (which is not insignificant), disparate impact is just a way of getting to the point of racism in the face of polite arguments that it ain't overt animus that motivates the discrimination.

BTW2, if you're concern is about the conflation of "racism" and "discrimination", your point is well-taken . . . but that's the risk we all ran when we didn't get it right while the polite words were in vogue.
i can't stand the uswnt sope for myriad reasons, hate, but that's a running joke i have with hoosboot. i really like your post and apologize that i'm too busy to give it the attention it deserves instead of short shrift but i'm working. so i'll give an example i've given before. and yes in the context of employment law i know what disparate impact means, but let's take it at its most rudimentary: a practice or policy that adversely impacts one group of people.

so we have municipality boca gardens. and in boca gardens you have middle class, rich, and a poorer black community/neighborhood - like so many parts of our country. the court there has a policy that if you get busted for a traffic violation you have to appear. and if you fail to appear a fta fines are assessed to your ticket, a warrant is issued, and a lawyer has to be hired to recall the warrant or a bond posted. now white guy matt has lived in the same house for 20 years he gets his ticket in the mail shows for court and everything is copacetic. black guy matt has moved twice since he got his license issued, doesn't know that the cops mail the ticket, never gets the ticket, and now misses his court date. he has a warrant out, has to hire a lawyer, post bond, etc. and maybe he never learns about the court date for ten months because he doesn't find out until he gets pulled over for speeding/expired tags whatever. now he has a new ticket; ten months of fta, has to get a lawyer, blah blah blah.

well the policy is the same for everyone. but because of the conditions of the poorer, black community that same policy has a disparate impact on blacks. it's not per se a racist policy; it's just that it has a racial disparate impact. and i've seen many circumstances like this throughout the court system. not overt racism; not subtle racism; neutral policy disparate impact
 
Haha. The USWNT bit was just part of an ongoing joke between me and mcm. He dislikes them so much I'm surprised that he hasn't renamed the cause of the current pandemic The Rapinoe Virus. 😂

That said, I am always interested when you weigh in on legal issues and I think your post suggests what I was wondering about. I'm a little less concerned about what we call it than I am what we do about it, but it feels like a lot of what we are disagreeing about may be the niceties of charged words.
LMAO i'm going to use that! Covid 45 aka the Rapinoe Virus. i responding to your post (mostly) in my response below to sope
 
  • Like
Reactions: hoosboot
Agree. The modern civil rights effort is focused on critical race theory which has at its core a belief that “white” culture or even “privilege” must be diminished in some fashion. I think that is a mistake. The better approach is to address those factors that prevent blacks from accessing those same privileges. I think this is the heart of MLK’s message.
It sounds like you're advocating a more "successful" style of assimilation . . . I think that ship sailed long, long ago when whites excluded Blacks from assimilation via the imposition of slavery and Jim Crow and whatever the general ethos towards Blacks today ends up being called . . .

. . . the fact is that Blacks have been forced - by whites - to create their own culture(s) and societal norms to counterbalance the effects of "white" culture and privilege on them as individuals and as a society. Now that aspects of Black culture - food and music as examples - have in some ways become dominant in the broader culture, you're advocating assimilation? Good luck.

There might be an interesting discussion to be had here . . . I think it was Shelby Foote that commented that there have been many white enclaves in the US, but never really a single "white" culture . . . we've talked about this some, with the conversations around Catholic vs. mainstream protestant vs. Evangelical protestant, and the different ethnic "white" communities in the US - German (including Amish), Italian, Irish, Polish, English ("you be careful out among them English, Jacob Book"), French (via Canada), and so on . . .

. . . what we might be finding is that being a member of a sub-society is what gives each of us an identity in a society filled with multiple societies . . . and membership in those societies ain't freely available to anyone who would like to be considered a member . . .

. . . the exclusionary behaviors engaged in by whites previously are coming home to roost . . . as will the exclusionary behaviors engaged in by the sub-societies eventually . . . .

Oh, and your assimilation theory being the "heart of MLK's message" . . . I think it's pretty clear that's just whistling past Dr. King's grave. You really don't know what Dr. King's message was, do you . . . you're just trying to rewrite Dr. King's message to suit you. That ain't gonna work.
 
i can't stand the uswnt sope for myriad reasons, hate, but that's a running joke i have with hoosboot. i really like your post and apologize that i'm too busy to give it the attention it deserves instead of short shrift but i'm working. so i'll give an example i've given before. and yes in the context of employment law i know what disparate impact means, but let's take it at its most rudimentary: a practice or policy that adversely impacts one group of people.

so we have municipality boca gardens. and in boca gardens you have middle class, rich, and a poorer black community/neighborhood - like so many parts of our country. the court there has a policy that if you get busted for a traffic violation you have to appear. and if you fail to appear a fta fines are assessed to your ticket, a warrant is issued, and a lawyer has to be hired to recall the warrant or a bond posted. now white guy matt has lived in the same house for 20 years he gets his ticket in the mail shows for court and everything is copacetic. black guy matt has moved twice since he got his license issued, doesn't know that the cops mail the ticket, never gets the ticket, and now misses his court date. he has a warrant out, has to hire a lawyer, post bond, etc. and maybe he never learns about the court date for ten months because he doesn't find out until he gets pulled over for speeding/expired tags whatever. now he has a new ticket; ten months of fta, has to get a lawyer, blah blah blah.

well the policy is the same for everyone. but because of the conditions of the poorer, black community that same policy has a disparate impact on blacks. it's not per se a racist policy; it's just that it has a racial disparate impact. and i've seen many circumstances like this throughout the court system. not overt racism; not subtle racism; neutral policy disparate impact

But once we know there is a disparate impact, does that knowledge make keeping the law a racist act?
 
Haha. The USWNT bit was just part of an ongoing joke between me and mcm. He dislikes them so much I'm surprised that he hasn't renamed the cause of the current pandemic The Rapinoe Virus. 😂

That said, I am always interested when you weigh in on legal issues and I think your post suggests what I was wondering about. I'm a little less concerned about what we call it than I am what we do about it, but it feels like a lot of what we are disagreeing about may be the niceties of charged words.
GRIN . . . well, I stepped in something there that I didn't know was a stink bomb waiting to explode . . . glad y'all have some fun with it. I'll leave well enough alone from here on . . . .

As for the words, I think folks have moved from "discrimination" to "racism" because it's a more emotionally-charged word in an effort to get some traction to alleviate the behaviors that are discriminatory either in their motivations or in their effects (irrespective as to whether the effects were intended).

I don't know where this next story fits so I'll leave it here and let y'all make sense of it: When I asked an operations SVP of a client I once had about the potential for any disparate impact on a protected class that the company's mortgage lending practices might have, his response was "Hell, there isn't any chance we've discriminated here . . . we screw everybody". It might be that this focus on racism on the basis of race and sex just gives bad actors cover to advocate for, and then take advantage of, rules that screw everybody . . . .
 
But once we know there is a disparate impact, does that knowledge make keeping the law a racist act?
i don't know but i also don't know the remedy. that becomes a slippery slope when you try to craft policies for the nuances of a multitude of circumstances and conditions
 
Yes. Profiling for sure includes racism

I was reading a discussion on profiling. The general point made by a person I agree with was that stopping a 5'10 Black male in his 20s after a report of a bank robbery by a 5'10 Black male in his 20s is perfectly fine. But getting a report that a bank robbery happened but the robber's race is unknown leading to stopping cars driven by young Black men because of a perception (or even if there is data) that they are more likely to be the culprit is wrong.

So here is the question. Let us say the police know this statistic from the Wiki - According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. Does that alone justify stopping a Black more often than a White? Current policing involves stopping people and trying to talk to them to get information that may lead the officer to believe they committed a crime. Since they can't know every car they pull over has a criminal, they have to make choices. If race plays a role in that choice, if the officer thinks a Black person in that area or driving that type of car is unusual enough to warrant pulling them over, is that a problem?

Or do we think police never note the race before pulling someone over. Which leads me back to the point about Senator Scott, if he has been pulled over many times like that there should be other White senators with the exact same story.

Now, I will agree with you on one thing you often bring up, often times this is economic related. But this then goes to the disparate impact question. If Blacks are being pulled over more often because they are more likely poor, does that make it racist even if the intent is economic?

And in reality, I think you and I are probably pretty close on this. I'd be particularly curious what CO thinks.
 
But once we know there is a disparate impact, does that knowledge make keeping the law a racist act?
I think that it does. Let me give you an example from a different context:

Banks and savings and loan companies used to avoid lending in neighborhoods where Blacks owned homes because the homeowners were Black - pure and simple redlining. Then after the anti-redlining laws and rules went into effect, they would say that the homes in those neighborhoods weren't maintained well enough, or weren't valuable enough, to lend money against them and loans were denied for "legitimate" reasons. The second sentence was true enough, but it was the direct and indirect result of the first sentence. Overt racism based on an animus towards a particular protected class? Ennnhhh . . . tough to prove that since there are no "I ain't gonna lend any of my shareholders' money to any of those [insert racially charged epithet here]" statements to prove the animus. Disparate impact? Oh hell yes . . . .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvin the Martian
I was reading a discussion on profiling. The general point made by a person I agree with was that stopping a 5'10 Black male in his 20s after a report of a bank robbery by a 5'10 Black male in his 20s is perfectly fine. But getting a report that a bank robbery happened but the robber's race is unknown leading to stopping cars driven by young Black men because of a perception (or even if there is data) that they are more likely to be the culprit is wrong.

So here is the question. Let us say the police know this statistic from the Wiki - According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. Does that alone justify stopping a Black more often than a White? Current policing involves stopping people and trying to talk to them to get information that may lead the officer to believe they committed a crime. Since they can't know every car they pull over has a criminal, they have to make choices. If race plays a role in that choice, if the officer thinks a Black person in that area or driving that type of car is unusual enough to warrant pulling them over, is that a problem?

Or do we think police never note the race before pulling someone over. Which leads me back to the point about Senator Scott, if he has been pulled over many times like that there should be other White senators with the exact same story.

Now, I will agree with you on one thing you often bring up, often times this is economic related. But this then goes to the disparate impact question. If Blacks are being pulled over more often because they are more likely poor, does that make it racist even if the intent is economic?

And in reality, I think you and I are probably pretty close on this. I'd be particularly curious what CO thinks.
FWIW, a Clayton County (GA) sheriff's deputy was fired yesterday after a video was released showing him beating the living daylights out of a 15-year-old Black kid who was a passenger in a car stopped for - wait for it - a broken tail light. A kid was arrested, then beaten, in response to a traffic stop when he wasn't even driving.

In the last two days I've seen at least two vehicles - an expensive pick up truck and an expensive SUV driven in my area with head lights not working . . . and they drivers just keep on driving like they've not a care in the world . . . of course, both drivers were white, one male and one female . . . .
 
I was reading a discussion on profiling. The general point made by a person I agree with was that stopping a 5'10 Black male in his 20s after a report of a bank robbery by a 5'10 Black male in his 20s is perfectly fine. But getting a report that a bank robbery happened but the robber's race is unknown leading to stopping cars driven by young Black men because of a perception (or even if there is data) that they are more likely to be the culprit is wrong.

So here is the question. Let us say the police know this statistic from the Wiki - According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. Does that alone justify stopping a Black more often than a White? Current policing involves stopping people and trying to talk to them to get information that may lead the officer to believe they committed a crime. Since they can't know every car they pull over has a criminal, they have to make choices. If race plays a role in that choice, if the officer thinks a Black person in that area or driving that type of car is unusual enough to warrant pulling them over, is that a problem?

Or do we think police never note the race before pulling someone over. Which leads me back to the point about Senator Scott, if he has been pulled over many times like that there should be other White senators with the exact same story.

Now, I will agree with you on one thing you often bring up, often times this is economic related. But this then goes to the disparate impact question. If Blacks are being pulled over more often because they are more likely poor, does that make it racist even if the intent is economic?

And in reality, I think you and I are probably pretty close on this. I'd be particularly curious what CO thinks.
i think profiling, while ostensibly effective, is indeed racist. but marv we're blending two very distinct things in court policies and the judicial system and policing. i think the latter has far more instances of direct racism whereas the former is more disparate impact
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvin the Martian
FWIW, a Clayton County (GA) sheriff's deputy was fired yesterday after a video was released showing him beating the living daylights out of a 15-year-old Black kid who was a passenger in a car stopped for - wait for it - a broken tail light. A kid was arrested, then beaten, in response to a traffic stop when he wasn't even driving.

In the last two days I've seen at least two vehicles - an expensive pick up truck and an expensive SUV driven in my area with head lights not working . . . and they drivers just keep on driving like they've not a care in the world . . . of course, both drivers were white, one male and one female . . . .
in my suburb we're going through an awful rash of car break ins. literally every single night you can hear car alarms go off. i promise you anyone black driving through my neighborhood at night has a 50/50 chance of getting pulled over. as i told marv i think that's where racism rests. far more in policing than in the judicial system where you see disparate impact
 
i don't know but i also don't know the remedy. that becomes a slippery slope when you try to craft policies for the nuances of a multitude of circumstances and conditions
Well, if you don't craft policies to alleviate the disparate impacts you have a slippery slope that applies to a limited group of people . . . that's not a good result either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcmurtry66
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT