Cardiac Kids

[rikki-tikka-tava]

It's supposed to be more fun than this. And less stressful. Tight games are one thing when both Teams are playing well but this slithering across the finish line routine after playing poorly just sucks. Doesn't even feel like winning so much as escaping.

Nice shot Rob. Just enough to keep me coming back like the junkie I am. Aside from that shot, hate that the high point of the game was watching the exhilaration by the Bench.

 

[Univee2]

It's supposed to be more fun than this. And less stressful. Tight games are one thing when both Teams are playing well but this slithering across the finish line routine after playing poorly just sucks. Doesn't even feel like wining so much as escaping.

Nice shot Rob. Just enough to keep me coming back like the junkie I am.

Going to a party now. The beer won't be safe ....

 

[rocketo]

It's supposed to be more fun than this. And less stressful. Tight games are one thing when both Teams are playing well but this slithering across the finish line routine after playing poorly just sucks. Doesn't even feel like wining so much as escaping.

Nice shot Rob. Just enough to keep me coming back like the junkie I am. Aide from that shot, hate that the high point of the game was watching the exhilaration by the Bench.

Yeah, we really didn’t deserve that win IMO. But we got it and I will always take a W.

 

[gator mcCluskey]

It's supposed to be more fun than this. And less stressful. Tight games are one thing when both Teams are playing well but this slithering across the finish line routine after playing poorly just sucks. Doesn't even feel like wining so much as escaping.

Nice shot Rob. Just enough to keep me coming back like the junkie I am.

Haven’t played a solid game since Marquette. What happened to that team?

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Yeah, we really didn’t deserve that win IMO. But we got it and I will always take a W.

"We" deserved it, IU just didn't exactly ennoble/exalt themselves in the process.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Haven’t played a solid game since Marquette. What happened to that team?

No idea. And it's at least two in row that Aljami has virtually disappeared. What's the hell is going on with that Boy?

 

[rocketo]

"We" deserved it, IU just didn't exactly ennoble/exalt themselves in the process.

We played like shit and turned the ball over with some really poor plays. Despite that, we did just enough including Morgan going nuts from 3 and Smith even joining the act. Like I said, I will take it. A W is a W

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

We played like shit and turned the ball over with some really poor plays. Despite that, we did just enough including Morgan going nuts from 3 and Smith even joining the act. Like I said, I will take it. A W is a W

Surely no grounds for disagreement there...just saying that however loose it is, IU had better shit. Just barely, but still.

 

[rocketo]

Surely no grounds for disagreement there...just saying that however loose it is, IU had better shit. Just barely, but still.

You’re right. The score doesn’t lie...

 

[gator mcCluskey]

No idea. And it's at least two in row that Aljami has virtually disappeared. What's the hell is going on with that Boy?

Should have an easy stretch here coming up. The game against Michigan will prove whether or not this team has improved or if they’re still the same bums who got embarrassed by Duke.

 

[rocketo]

Should have an easy stretch here coming up. The game against Michigan will prove whether or not this team has improved or if they’re still the same bums who got embarrassed by Duke.

So the kids are not “bums”. However Duke is certainly at a different talent level. That is clear. We are a fringe top 25 team right now. We have the potential to be top 15 team. It all depends on how we mature over the next month or so.

 

[mobilehoosier]

That wa totally fun!
Go Hoosiers!

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

That wa totally fun!
Go Hoosiers!

Masochist.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

So the kids are not “bums”. However Duke is certainly at a different talent level. That is clear. We are a fringe top 25 team right now. We have the potential to be top 15 team. It all depends on how we mature over the next month or so.

It amazes me how people are so upset we lost to an NBA team on their home court...where they pretty much never lose. Yes, it was a bad loss. We were horribly outmatched, on the road, and against a loaded team with a HOF coach.

 

[TR32]

As I keep saying, IU needs to learn an offense that isn't completely dependent on Morgan and Ro.

Wins are wins, but never being able to pull away will get a team burned more often than they would like.

Miller needs shooters also. Real shooters, not just scorers. I am hopeful he is recruiting someone in the '20 class who can really shoot.

 

[gator mcCluskey]

Wow, guess I offended the sensibilities of some of the school marms around here with my initial post. My simple point was that we really won’t know how much this team has improved until that Michigan game. The Duke game was a debacle that I hope was the low point of the season. Hopefully the players feel the same way.

 

[FormerRevMatt]

As I keep saying, IU needs to learn an offense that isn't completely dependent on Morgan and Ro.

Wins are wins, but never being able to pull away will get a team burned more often than they would like.

Miller needs shooters also. Real shooters, not just scorers. I am hopeful he is recruiting someone in the '20 class who can really shoot.

I absolutely agree with the need for a dead-eye shooter or two.

I know people don't want to hear it, but IU has an all Freshman starting backcourt and several other really young players.

Ask yourself, when was the last time IU had two freshman starting guards and how smoothly did the offense run?

Even the terribly young IU team Cheaney's Freshman year had Meeks start most games. And that team went 8-10 in the league and looked really rough much of the time.

Sometimes I think expectations are just way too high sometimes.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Pretty happy with the defense right now. Offense not so much...

 

[oldcougar77]

Pretty happy with the defense right now. Offense not so much...

Sometimes two teams both playing really good defense can make offenses look poor. I thought both teams took what the D gave (which wasn't much) and both teams had players make huge plays on the offensive end down the stretch. IMO it was a game IU won by staying the course and hanging tough even with Butler making big plays every time the Hoosiers closed things up. It shouldn't be overlooked by this board that Butler is a pretty damn good basketball team.

Today is the only time this year that I will root for Butler's opponent (unless we see them again in the post-season). I didn't see a poorly-played game that saw one team eke out a win it didn't earn. I saw a hard-fought physical game in which both teams gave great effort, made big plays at critical times, and made the best of what was available.

 

[zibby43]

Pretty happy with the defense right now. Offense not so much...

Which makes today's game strange. It was, statistically, IU's best offensive performance of the season.

And IU's second worse defensive performance of the season. 1.05 points per possession. Second highest number allowed after the Duke game.

 

[namnik]

It's supposed to be more fun than this. And less stressful. Tight games are one thing when both Teams are playing well but this slithering across the finish line routine after playing poorly just sucks. Doesn't even feel like wining so much as escaping.

Nice shot Rob. Just enough to keep me coming back like the junkie I am. Aside from that shot, hate that the high point of the game was watching the exhilaration by the Bench.

Y'all must be watching a different game on TV than what is being broadcast in my home. I do not watch this game for offensive action, but for defensive performance. Louisville, Northwestern, Marquette, and Butler are very good teams that were beat, due to really good defensive effort. Don't count me as one upset. We earned the W by defensive stops...a near impossible thing to teach a team. Sometimes a team just has that grit to win and some seemingly always lose the close ones. Not this team. Those will be great statistical wins come March.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Y'all must be watching a different game on TV than what is being broadcast in my home. I do not watch this game for offensive action, but for defensive performance. Louisville, Northwestern, Marquette, and Butler are very good teams that were beat, due to really good defensive effort. Don't count me as one upset. We earned the W by defensive stops...a near impossible thing to teach a team. Sometimes a team just has that grit to win and some seemingly always lose the close ones. Not this team. Those will be great statistical wins come March.

What position does "we" play?

They're great statistical wins now, but statistical wins are hollow things, especially when characterized by excessive turnovers and most of the offensive production being confined to one or two Players.

IU's defense is solid enough to be nearly top 20 nationally per Kenpom and seems to improve within the course of Games. Well and good but all the defense in the world won't get anyone to the next game without scoring - sort of the Crean Syndrome in reverse with TOs so far being pretty much a constant.

The boilers have the #8 ranked offense in the country and are 6-5 - they look good statistically because their stats are skewed by an inordinate level of production and efficiency coming from one player, not unlike IU against Butler where Juwan scored almost half the points and singlehandedly raised IU's shooting percentage from under 40% up to 52%. He also scored all of IU's points in free throws save for one by going 7-7 leading to a misleading 80% figure for FT efficiency. If "y'all" imagine that this is the stuff of long-term success and deep runs in tournaments, then you do, but it's extremely sketchy at best and won't be remotely sufficient to consistently and reliably beat better teams having similarly able defense AND balanced scoring.

Defense is not "a near impossible thing to teach a team". Lots of teams do it better (MI, PSU & WI) or nearly as well (NW, MD, MSU, OSU) in the B10 alone. Am thrilled IU is on the cusp of having an elite defense, but no one could have watched yesterday's game objectively and not be concerned about the way IU regularly struggles on offense. They start flat, half the Players in the rotation are borderline non-factors offensively on any given night, and so far they're just barely doing enough to win on the basis of pure athleticism, and not because the Team has a polished and efficient offense. Neither statistics nor the eye test refute that no matter what you believe.

This is all to say that IU and Miller have a lot of work to do, and most of it on offense. Much as one might favor establishing good defense first, or be satisfied by IU's 9-2 record, that doesn't obscure the reality that this Team's offense is still very much a work in progress. The silver lining is that athletically IU has a very high ceiling on offense - Juwan may already be at or near the top of his game if his 3-pt. accuracy holds up, but the rest of the group isn't anywhere close to being as good individually or collectively on offense as they are on defense. Whether it's Romeo, Justin, Rob, Devonte, Evan. Aljami, De'Ron or Zach, they all have room to get a lot better, and particularly if whatever schemes Archie is teaching are as robust as his defensive lessons/acumen.

 

[IUBBALLAWOL]

What position does "we" play?

They're great statistical wins now, but statistical wins are hollow things, especially when characterized by excessive turnovers and most of the offensive production being confined to one or two Players.

IU's defense is solid enough to be nearly top 20 nationally per Kenpom and seems to improve within the course of Games. Well and good but all the defense in the world won't get anyone to the next game without scoring - sort of the Crean Syndrome in reverse with TOs so far being pretty much a constant.

The boilers have the #8 ranked offense in the country and are 6-5 - they look good statistically because their stats are skewed by an inordinate level of production and efficiency coming from one player, not unlike IU against Butler where Juwan scored almost half the points and singlehandedly raised IU's shooting percentage from under 40% up to 52%. He also scored all of IU's points in free throws save for one by going 7-7 leading to a misleading 80% figure for FT efficiency. If "y'all" imagine that this is the stuff of long-term success and deep runs in tournaments, then you do, but it's extremely sketchy at best and won't be remotely sufficient to consistently and reliably beat better teams having similarly able defense AND balanced scoring.

Defense is not "a near impossible thing to teach a team". Lots of teams do it better (MI, PSU & WI) or nearly as well (NW, MD, MSU, OSU) in the B10 alone. Am thrilled IU is on the cusp of having an elite defense, but no one could have watched yesterday's game objectively and not be concerned about the way IU regularly struggles on offense. They start flat, half the Players in the rotation are borderline non-factors offensively on any given night, and so far they're just barely doing enough to win on the basis of pure athleticism, and not because the Team has a polished and efficient offense. Neither statistics nor the eye test refute that no matter what you believe.

This is all to say that IU and Miller have a lot of work to do, and most of it on offense. Much as one might favor establishing good defense first, or be satisfied by IU's 9-2 record, that doesn't obscure the reality that this Team's offense is still very much a work in progress. The silver lining is that athletically IU has a very high ceiling on offense - Juwan may already be at or near the top of his game if his 3-pt. accuracy holds up, but the rest of the group isn't anywhere close to being as good individually or collectively on offense as they are on defense. Whether it's Romeo, Justin, Rob, Devonte, Evan. Aljami, De'Ron or Zach, they all have room to get a lot better, and particularly if whatever schemes Archie is teaching are as robust as his defensive lessons/acumen.

Can't argue with any of these points but do wonder what effect the injuries have had on these younger kids putting it all together on both ends of the court without that much practice time. CAM seems to value defense more than offense or at least talks that way maybe because this team has been so deficient for so long. Have to believe they have spent more time on the defensive end so far and the offense will come around as the younger group grasps both ends as time goes along. I think the issue is from lack of practice time as a collective group because of all the injuries. Well shall see.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Which makes today's game strange. It was, statistically, IU's best offensive performance of the season.

And IU's second worse defensive performance of the season. 1.05 points per possession. Second highest number allowed after the Duke game.

By no means a statistical expert in the context of Hoops, but revealing as they are, do know they don't always tell the whole story. IU's offense hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire so that aspect is not too surprising.

Do know IU keeps 'dodging bullets' and that the powder burns attesting to just how closely are hard to divine from the number crunching. Do like that they keep winning, not so much the way they're doing it. Eventually the brinksmanship is going to see them take some hits, none fatal perhaps, but only because it's still early.

 

[namnik]

What position does "we" play?

They're great statistical wins now, but statistical wins are hollow things, especially when characterized by excessive turnovers and most of the offensive production being confined to one or two Players.

IU's defense is solid enough to be nearly top 20 nationally per Kenpom and seems to improve within the course of Games. Well and good but all the defense in the world won't get anyone to the next game without scoring - sort of the Crean Syndrome in reverse with TOs so far being pretty much a constant.

The boilers have the #8 ranked offense in the country and are 6-5 - they look good statistically because their stats are skewed by an inordinate level of production and efficiency coming from one player, not unlike IU against Butler where Juwan scored almost half the points and singlehandedly raised IU's shooting percentage from under 40% up to 52%. He also scored all of IU's points in free throws save for one by going 7-7 leading to a misleading 80% figure for FT efficiency. If "y'all" imagine that this is the stuff of long-term success and deep runs in tournaments, then you do, but it's extremely sketchy at best and won't be remotely sufficient to consistently and reliably beat better teams having similarly able defense AND balanced scoring.

Defense is not "a near impossible thing to teach a team". Lots of teams do it better (MI, PSU & WI) or nearly as well (NW, MD, MSU, OSU) in the B10 alone. Am thrilled IU is on the cusp of having an elite defense, but no one could have watched yesterday's game objectively and not be concerned about the way IU regularly struggles on offense. They start flat, half the Players in the rotation are borderline non-factors offensively on any given night, and so far they're just barely doing enough to win on the basis of pure athleticism, and not because the Team has a polished and efficient offense. Neither statistics nor the eye test refute that no matter what you believe.

This is all to say that IU and Miller have a lot of work to do, and most of it on offense. Much as one might favor establishing good defense first, or be satisfied by IU's 9-2 record, that doesn't obscure the reality that this Team's offense is still very much a work in progress. The silver lining is that athletically IU has a very high ceiling on offense - Juwan may already be at or near the top of his game if his 3-pt. accuracy holds up, but the rest of the group isn't anywhere close to being as good individually or collectively on offense as they are on defense. Whether it's Romeo, Justin, Rob, Devonte, Evan. Aljami, De'Ron or Zach, they all have room to get a lot better, and particularly if whatever schemes Archie is teaching are as robust as his defensive lessons/acumen.

You somewhat confirmed my post. Offense doesn't win games as you statistically noted with Purdue. Defense is the key to victory.

Never did I suggest a coach cant teach or improve defense, but I did suggest that it is difficult to teach grit. How do you teach grit in making a needed defensive stop? It's more character development than x's and o's. That is very difficult for a coach to teach in the short term. Those are long term personality lessons.

Finally, I think you know who "we" are.

 

[IUgradman]

Archie had said he is still installing his offense which may explain the apparent struggles so far.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

You somewhat confirmed my post. Offense doesn't win games as you statistically noted with Purdue. Defense is the key to victory.

Never did I suggest a coach cant teach or improve defense, but I did suggest that it is difficult to teach grit. How do you teach grit in making a needed defensive stop? It's more character development than x's and o's. That is very difficult for a coach to teach in the short term. Those are long term personality lessons.

Finally, I think you know who "we" are.

All that's been confirmed is that you're deluded. "...defensive stops...a near impossible thing to teach". You're right, that's not a "suggestion", it's a flipping assertion. And false.

The Game is about execution. Period. All the unquantifiable indefinable "grit" in the world doesn't make up for not rotating, being in the wrong place, failing to stay in front of one's opponent or not putting the ball in the basket. Your precious 'grit' without execution is essentially worthless, whereas execution without 'grit' is just as effective as whatever it is you're trying to peddle as hoops acumen.

Far as I can tell, "we" is someone who imagines that he/she is somehow part of the IU Team and/or it's Staff to the extent that he/she is privy to and able to speak with any authority or insight as to what makes them good or not so good w.r.t. what they do on the Court. Not seeing it.

IME the aspects of character that are something other than intrinsic and that can in some measure be taught/learned come from doing. In the context of basketball, that arises primarily from Player dedication to doing things the right way, rigorously and repeatedly, and Staff identifying what's right and reinforcing that through whatever means they deem appropriate. You may imagine that as being synonymous with feeble concepts like 'grit', but in reality it's about consistent execution - attitude or tenacity or whatever may be a byproduct or characteristic of delivering that, and on an individual level facilitate that, but it is not the thing itself, and nothing by itself.

Grit is a term used as shorthand to describe Players and Teams that exhibit solid execution, often by those lacking the understanding to appreciate or relate the specifics of what that execution entails - a catchall assessment that basically ignores the mechanics of the Game. As to its alleged 'essentialness', give me bloodless assassins every time as they've no need for or dependency upon the likes of 'grit', and everything they do can be taught and learned without recourse to bush-league mysticism or the hackneyed mumbo-jumbo of broadcast announcers.

 

[SIhoosier26]

It amazes me how people are so upset we lost to an NBA team on their home court...where they pretty much never lose. Yes, it was a bad loss. We were horribly outmatched, on the road, and against a loaded team with a HOF coach.

People severely overrated this team coming into the year. There are still some major holes on this team. Some people on this board were picking this team to win the Big 10 and even saying "final 4 or bust."

The truth is we are still overmatched by the very elite teams but still have enough talent to be inside the top 25. In just year 2 of the Archie era he has already made huge improvements to the program and there's a lot to be excited about going forward. Anyone that is still bitching will likely never be happy.

 

[zibby43]

By no means a statistical expert in the context of Hoops, but revealing as they are, do know they don't always tell the whole story. IU's offense hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire so that aspect is not too surprising.

Do know IU keeps 'dodging bullets' and that the powder burns attesting to just how closely are hard to divine from the number crunching. Do like that they keep winning, not so much the way they're doing it. Eventually the brinksmanship is going to see them take some hits, none fatal perhaps, but only because it's still early.

On the balance of the season, I agree with your original post wholeheartedly.

And despite the statistically "bad" defense in the Butler game, the defense did lock in down the stretch of that game pretty darn well.

If they combine the offense from the Butler game (except make it a bit more balanced going forward) and the defense from the rest of the season, I think they'll start to separate.

Also, IU has been closing well. They need to get off to better starts.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Also, IU has been closing well. They need to get off to better starts.

Amen. Yesterday was actually trying to imagine some sort of pre-Game scenario to get them out of the gate faster. The whole thing with spotting opponents ten points to start just blows. As stands, IU's warm-up seems to be having the same effect as a walk-in cooler.

 

[namnik]

All that's been confirmed is that you're deluded. "...defensive stops...a near impossible thing to teach". You're right, that's not a "suggestion", it's a flipping assertion. And false.

The Game is about execution. Period. All the unquantifiable indefinable "grit" in the world doesn't make up for not rotating, being in the wrong place, failing to stay in front of one's opponent or not putting the ball in the basket. Your precious 'grit' without execution is essentially worthless, whereas execution without 'grit' is just as effective as whatever it is you're trying to peddle as hoops acumen.

Far as I can tell, "we" is someone who imagines that he/she is somehow part of the IU Team and/or it's Staff to the extent that he/she is privy to and able to speak with any authority or insight as to what makes them good or not so good w.r.t. what they do on the Court. Not seeing it.

IME the aspects of character that are something other than intrinsic and that can in some measure be taught/learned come from doing. In the context of basketball, that arises primarily from Player dedication to doing things the right way, rigorously and repeatedly, and Staff identifying what's right and reinforcing that through whatever means they deem appropriate. You may imagine that as being synonymous with feeble concepts like 'grit', but in reality it's about consistent execution - attitude or tenacity or whatever may be a byproduct or characteristic of delivering that, and on an individual level facilitate that, but it is not the thing itself, and nothing by itself.

Grit is a term used as shorthand to describe Players and Teams that exhibit solid execution, often by those lacking the understanding to appreciate or relate the specifics of what that execution entails - a catchall assessment that basically ignores the mechanics of the Game. As to its alleged 'essentialness', give me bloodless assassins every time as they've no need for or dependency upon the likes of 'grit', and everything they do can be taught and learned without recourse to bush-league mysticism or the hackneyed mumbo-jumbo of broadcast announcers.

I stopped reading after your first limiting paragraph.

The good news is that you are annoyed with the success of Archie and this current IU team. As a result, your misery is my joy. Hopefully, "we" can continue to disappoint you.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

I stopped reading after your first limiting paragraph.

Sure you did - standard reply by those unable to offer a coherent response.

So much for Namnik's Theory of Grit - tried, exposed and utterly trashed.

 

[namnik]

Sure you did - standard reply by those unable to offer a coherent response.

So much for Namnik's Theory of Grit - tried, exposed and utterly trashed.

There ya go. See, that's not so hard. Concise language. A 3 page response isn't necessary. Well done. Grit matters, just not to you. Here's to continued future misery for ya....only relating to IU ball of course.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

There ya go. See, that's not so hard. Concise language. A 3 page response isn't necessary. Well done. Grit matters, just not to you. Here's to continued future misery for ya....only relating to IU ball of course.

So BS really is all you have. Noted. You're not even very good at that.

 

[iubud]

Haven’t played a solid game since Marquette. What happened to that team?

You might remember hearing about some injuries after the Marquette game (6 out at one time). Now that they have most players from the rotation back and can practice, expect them to get back to that level.

 

[gator mcCluskey]

You might remember hearing about some injuries after the Marquette game (6 out at one time). Now that they have most players from the rotation back and can practice, expect them to get back to that level.

Many of those players were already out for the Marquette game. It’s not as simple as you’re trying to make it.

 

[Matman77]

Yeah, we really didn’t deserve that win IMO. But we got it and I will always take a W.

Maybe we did deserve it, as this is how we win games.

 

[Bippy]

It's supposed to be more fun than this. And less stressful. Tight games are one thing when both Teams are playing well but this slithering across the finish line routine after playing poorly just sucks. Doesn't even feel like winning so much as escaping.

Nice shot Rob. Just enough to keep me coming back like the junkie I am. Aside from that shot, hate that the high point of the game was watching the exhilaration by the Bench.

Actually that is exactly what made it fun. You were biting your knuckles for 39 minutes 59 and 8/10 seconds (as was I). Sure blowing out the opponent is satisfying, but this kept your attention, didn't it?

 

[dbmhoosier]

You might remember hearing about some injuries after the Marquette game (6 out at one time). Now that they have most players from the rotation back and can practice, expect them to get back to that level.

Uh Mcrob and Green were out against Marquette.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Actually that is exactly what made it fun. You were biting your knuckles for 39 minutes 59 and 8/10 seconds (as was I). Sure blowing out the opponent is satisfying, but this kept your attention, didn't it?

Nope. Just don't equate sloppy with fun, and am already rapt during games. Generally walk away if it gets really bad - saw enough of such the last twenty years to last for the duration.