Brunk visited by IU coaches today

[frikkenfrakken]

I think Brunk would have been a capable starter this year, and would have replaced Smith. Even Smith/Brunk individually were an equivalent swap, the team would have benefited more with Brunk because Morgan would have been able to play the 4 instead of the 5. Morgan played so much better when Davis was available more than just 3 or 4 minutes, unfortunately that was only about half the season.

I agree. In fact, I think there are actually legitimate reasons to complain about Archie's reliance on Smith so much this season. Thompson graded out better, even in limited conference minutes, because he was a very good rebounder and defender while in there. His minutes weren't garbage time minutes either. Race was hurt, so I can see why he didn't play as much...but he didn't get big minutes in a couple of late games when healthy either. Then he got the flu...

Clifton Moore probably has a similar complaint. He posted very effective numbers while in there. Most of it was garbage time, but it was encouraging enough to give him a little run and see what he had, in my opinion. 5 minutes here or there, spread out over a few games. Monitor his efficiency, see if it stays up.

But, I suspect that all has to do with the culture Archie's trying to build. He wants to make them prove they can defend at a high level before they get big minutes. Trouble is, Smith wasn't defending at a high level either. He was (relatively) highly rated, but his skills tend to suggest his best role is as an energy/glue guy. But you can't be an energy guy if you play with...no energy.

 

[bailey777]

Brunk is an immediate upgrade inside the paint.

Yep Brunk, DD, and TJD would be a good rotation.

 

[MikeHoncho69]

I'm intrigued by Brunk. Rivals and 247 both rated him as a 4-star prospect (104th - Rivals, 107th - 247), so the talent is clearly there. I don't watch Butler at all, so I wonder if the coaching staffs of Chris Holtmann/LaVall Jordan failed to properly develop Brunk or if he simply isn't as good as advertised.

Has anyone watched Butler basketball closely enough to provide some insight?

 

[Lt. John Mclaine]

Being a South Sider I saw Joey play a lot at Southport high. He's a great kid, extremely hard working, and he was probably the most popular guy on the Butler Team which tells me he'd be a good fit from a chemistry standpoint.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

I agree. In fact, I think there are actually legitimate reasons to complain about Archie's reliance on Smith so much this season. Thompson graded out better, even in limited conference minutes, because he was a very good rebounder and defender while in there. His minutes weren't garbage time minutes either. Race was hurt, so I can see why he didn't play as much...but he didn't get big minutes in a couple of late games when healthy either. Then he got the flu...

Clifton Moore probably has a similar complaint. He posted very effective numbers while in there. Most of it was garbage time, but it was encouraging enough to give him a little run and see what he had, in my opinion. 5 minutes here or there, spread out over a few games. Monitor his efficiency, see if it stays up.

But, I suspect that all has to do with the culture Archie's trying to build. He wants to make them prove they can defend at a high level before they get big minutes. Trouble is, Smith wasn't defending at a high level either. He was (relatively) highly rated, but his skills tend to suggest his best role is as an energy/glue guy. But you can't be an energy guy if you play with...no energy.

This is a great post.

The one true issue I had with Archie is staying with Smith so long. Maybe Cliff would have been a big drop off, but if you’re gonna lose why not at least send a message?

It’s a shame, really. Justin has the perfect athletic skillset to thrive in the packline - if he’d only be committed to it. Not sure if he’s around next year (rumors are he’s gone) but if I’m Archie I make it clear that a return for a junior season only happens if you wow to totally buy in.

 

[ufo33]

This is a great post.

The one true issue I had with Archie is staying with Smith so long. Maybe Cliff would have been a big drop off, but if you’re gonna lose why not at least send a message?

It’s a shame, really. Justin has the perfect athletic skillset to thrive in the packline - if he’d only be committed to it. Not sure if he’s around next year (rumors are he’s gone) but if I’m Archie I make it clear that a return for a junior season only happens if you wow to totally buy in.

All buy in Smith.
Or no Smith.

 

[Pelkowski]

This is a great post.

The one true issue I had with Archie is staying with Smith so long. Maybe Cliff would have been a big drop off, but if you’re gonna lose why not at least send a message?

It’s a shame, really. Justin has the perfect athletic skillset to thrive in the packline - if he’d only be committed to it. Not sure if he’s around next year (rumors are he’s gone) but if I’m Archie I make it clear that a return for a junior season only happens if you wow to totally buy in.

I think Justin’s minutes will be limited next year if he stays. He is the kind of player where you are wowed by his athleticism and he has a few great games. But in the end, he ends up hurting your team with poor decisions, loafing down the court, mental errors, and costly mistakes. He won’t be happy with this roll... so he should probably move on.

 

[Eurocyldon]

I want to give JS the benefit of the doubt. He's talented enough to make the team better. And to his credit he's been asked, similar to Morgan, to play out of his natural position and to guard much bigger players. Another summer of working on his game, and hopefully his shot, should help. But what stands out to me is the number of times he lacks effort. It is not an all-game thing, but specific moments.

Example: Multiple times he would drive to the basket and throw up a terrible shot or lose the ball on his way to the basket and then fall to the ground. Instead of quickly getting up off the floor and sprinting back on D he will agonizingly make his way up and do a slow jog back on D. That has to stop. He's going to be a Jr. and should be a leader by now. That can't happen anymore.

Similar to Troy Williams, JS has to learn you can't just run at the rim, jump and hope something good happens. He's got to add more to his game than just a great vertical.

 

[turney333]

I want to give JS the benefit of the doubt. He's talented enough to make the team better. And to his credit he's been asked, similar to Morgan, to play out of his natural position and to guard much bigger players. Another summer of working on his game, and hopefully his shot, should help. But what stands out to me is the number of times he lacks effort. It is not an all-game thing, but specific moments.

Example: Multiple times he would drive to the basket and throw up a terrible shot or lose the ball on his way to the basket and then fall to the ground. Instead of quickly getting up off the floor and sprinting back on D he will agonizingly make his way up and do a slow jog back on D. That has to stop. He's going to be a Jr. and should be a leader by now. That can't happen anymore.

Similar to Troy Williams, JS has to learn you can't just run at the rim, jump and hope something good happens. He's got to add more to his game than just a great vertical.

I also think that he's a player that would have been more productive this year had he played fewer minutes. I think being in a position where he started and was frequently playing 25+ minutes a game forced him to try to do to much and took away focus on trying to do the little things

 

[USA1]

Is this what we have evolved to? Did anyone see Bruno play this year? Slow, plodding,.....no thanks.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I also think that he's a player that would have been more productive this year had he played fewer minutes. I think being in a position where he started and was frequently playing 25+ minutes a game forced him to try to do to much and took away focus on trying to do the little things

Seriously?? You're a good poster but this is a really silly post.

 

[Eurocyldon]

Is this what we have evolved to? Did anyone see Bruno play this year? Slow, plodding,.....no thanks.

I don't think anyone is claiming Brunk to be anything more than what he is. A solid presence with some size that IU lacks. He has to be an upgrade to Moore and Forrester off the bench, at this point. And after watching another season of the other team's slow and plodding bigs essentially reach over IU's out of position small forward and 6'8 forward playing center for rebounds and game winning tip-ins, I'd think Brunk is a welcome addition, if he chooses IU.

Other than Watford, is there a better big available that IU has a chance to get for next season?

 

[mushroomgod_1]

This is a great post.

The one true issue I had with Archie is staying with Smith so long. Maybe Cliff would have been a big drop off, but if you’re gonna lose why not at least send a message?

It’s a shame, really. Justin has the perfect athletic skillset to thrive in the packline - if he’d only be committed to it. Not sure if he’s around next year (rumors are he’s gone) but if I’m Archie I make it clear that a return for a junior season only happens if you wow to totally buy in.

Have you seen/heard any rumors about him being gone other than on this site or other sites? Just curious.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

Have you seen/heard any rumors about him being gone other than on this site or other sites? Just curious.

I had a message sent to me over the weekend saying Smith was likely going to transfer. Not set in stone, mind you, but from what my source tells me it's likely.

What does that mean exactly? If I'm guessing, Archie sat down with Justin and his dad and in know uncertain terms laid out what his attitude and approach needs to be to come back next year. I'd love to have the kid back IF he buys into Archie's system; he's ideal to play the packline. But ONLY IF he will commit to it.

 

[iubud]

This is a great post.

The one true issue I had with Archie is staying with Smith so long. Maybe Cliff would have been a big drop off, but if you’re gonna lose why not at least send a message?

It’s a shame, really. Justin has the perfect athletic skillset to thrive in the packline - if he’d only be committed to it. Not sure if he’s around next year (rumors are he’s gone) but if I’m Archie I make it clear that a return for a junior season only happens if you wow to totally buy in.

I would expect Moore never put in the work that would have earned him playing time. To be continually ignored meant there was a reason Archie didn't consider putting him in.

Moore could have decided a while back he was leaving and began scaling back his effort. Why would Archie play someone that wasn't earning playing time?

Smith got into the game because he did some things well at times. At the end of the year, he was benched several times when we had someone available to come in. Our problem was there wasn't an experienced player behind him that would play any better. Thompson did well until he missed 2 games with the flu. He didn't have time to get comfortable in the offense. As long as he stays healthy, he should compete for playing time ahead of Smith. I fully believe Smith at his best would be a starter. Less than that could land him on the bench.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

I fully believe Smith at his best would be a starter. Less than that could land him on the bench.

IMHO Smith at his best would be a serious difference maker. Hope he comes back and buys in.

 

[kkott]

I had a message sent to me over the weekend saying Smith was likely going to transfer. Not set in stone, mind you, but from what my source tells me it's likely.

What does that mean exactly? If I'm guessing, Archie sat down with Justin and his dad and in know uncertain terms laid out what his attitude and approach needs to be to come back next year. I'd love to have the kid back IF he buys into Archie's system; he's ideal to play the packline. But ONLY IF he will commit to it.

Unfortunately the problem isn't his physical skillset, but more his mental. I think CTC often overlooked "fire, motor, moxy, etc..." in favor of athleticism or offensive skillset. He just didn't value aggressive, physical players with more limited offensive skills, as other coaches do. The only guy like that I can think of he ever got was Freddie McSwain, and then we had a 6'6" guy playing in the post. It's almost like he preferred "nice" guys... Cody, Vic, Juwan, Justin, OG... It's really hard to think of guys we've had in the last 10 years that you'd describe as fiery, fierce, aggressive... anyone come to mind?

 

[jimmygoiu]

Unfortunately the problem isn't his physical skillset, but more his mental. I think CTC often overlooked "fire, motor, moxy, etc..." in favor of athleticism or offensive skillset. He just didn't value aggressive, physical players with more limited offensive skills, as other coaches do. The only guy like that I can think of he ever got was Freddie McSwain, and then we had a 6'6" guy playing in the post. It's almost like he preferred "nice" guys... Cody, Vic, Juwan, Justin, OG... It's really hard to think of guys we've had in the last 10 years that you'd describe as fiery, fierce, aggressive... anyone come to mind?

Devonte Green, what do you think?..

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

Unfortunately the problem isn't his physical skillset, but more his mental.

Yep.

My source didn't say those exact words, but the conversation pretty much indicated he'd have to have his mind right to come back. Don't know if the "likely transfer" means he's gotten the impression Smith won't be on board with that or not, just my guess.

If Smith ever does buy into that role, he could be a monster lockdown. Hope that he does.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

Unfortunately the problem isn't his physical skillset, but more his mental. I think CTC often overlooked "fire, motor, moxy, etc..." in favor of athleticism or offensive skillset. He just didn't value aggressive, physical players with more limited offensive skills, as other coaches do. The only guy like that I can think of he ever got was Freddie McSwain, and then we had a 6'6" guy playing in the post. It's almost like he preferred "nice" guys... Cody, Vic, Juwan, Justin, OG... It's really hard to think of guys we've had in the last 10 years that you'd describe as fiery, fierce, aggressive... anyone come to mind?

Bryant and Yogi more than anyone else. And to a degree, Sheehey. Sometimes it got the better of Bryant. But way too many laid back personalities in recent yrs.

And maybe throw Hulls on that list. He wasn't outwardly 'fiery' but he was tough kid

Smith is such an enigma. super athletic but plays like he just woke up and hasn't had his first cup of coffee yet.

 

[cryano]

Bryant and Yogi more than anyone else. And to a degree, Sheehey. Sometimes it got the better of Bryant. But way too many laid back personalities in recent yrs.

And maybe throw Hulls on that list. He wasn't outwardly 'fiery' but he was tough kid

Vic was an absolute monster on the court...dont let his playfulness and kindness off the court be mistaken for anything less...

 

[Tegray1]

Justin Smith can't shoot. That's the problem and his body language and ability to play hard. He shot 49% and got how many dunks. Brunk shot 61% and people are complaining about his athleticism. We need smarts on the court. Justin had 65 to's. We also need toughness and maturity. Did you remember Archie saying Juwan was an adult. I think that means no one else is.

Yep.

My source didn't say those exact words, but the conversation pretty much indicated he'd have to have his mind right to come back. Don't know if the "likely transfer" means he's gotten the impression Smith won't be on board with that or not, just my guess.

If Smith ever does buy into that role, he could be a monster lockdown. Hope that he does.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

Vic was an absolute monster on the court...dont let his playfulness and kindness off the court be mistaken for anything less...

yeah I thought about adding Vic...he had that kid-next-door smile on his face but was a beast once the game started

 

[iubud]

Yep.

My source didn't say those exact words, but the conversation pretty much indicated he'd have to have his mind right to come back. Don't know if the "likely transfer" means he's gotten the impression Smith won't be on board with that or not, just my guess.

If Smith ever does buy into that role, he could be a monster lockdown. Hope that he does.

I wonder when those comments were supposedly made? Playing without Romeo seemed to agree with Green. He spoke a lot in the post game interviews like a player happy that he was getting a chance to lead the team. I believe Archie will use that performance and promote the leadership role to Green I believe that is a role Green has always wanted and won't have at another top program.

He could choose to test the NBA for the feedback. I wouldn't blame him and it would be a good experience.

 

[HoosiersChamps]

I had a message sent to me over the weekend saying Smith was likely going to transfer. Not set in stone, mind you, but from what my source tells me it's likely.

What does that mean exactly? If I'm guessing, Archie sat down with Justin and his dad and in know uncertain terms laid out what his attitude and approach needs to be to come back next year. I'd love to have the kid back IF he buys into Archie's system; he's ideal to play the packline. But ONLY IF he will commit to it.

The only one here with the proper insight into this is Feepaw. Lets get his take on this.
Feepaw; what is going on with Smith, you all knowing IU insider you.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

The only one here with the proper insight into this is Feepaw. Lets get his take on this.
Feepaw; what is going on with Smith, you all knowing IU insider you.

 

[kkott]

He could choose to test the NBA for the feedback. I wouldn't blame him and it would be a good experience.[/QUOTE]

Good one!

Oh wait, it's not April 1st? What???

 

[oldcougar77]

Unfortunately the problem isn't his physical skillset, but more his mental. I think CTC often overlooked "fire, motor, moxy, etc..." in favor of athleticism or offensive skillset. He just didn't value aggressive, physical players with more limited offensive skills, as other coaches do. The only guy like that I can think of he ever got was Freddie McSwain, and then we had a 6'6" guy playing in the post. It's almost like he preferred "nice" guys... Cody, Vic, Juwan, Justin, OG... It's really hard to think of guys we've had in the last 10 years that you'd describe as fiery, fierce, aggressive... anyone come to mind?

I agree. But I think more to the point, Crean didn't get pissed off about possessions that ended in bad shots being taken or foolish turnovers. Consequently, guys didn't get their asses chewed or put on the bench for those things. Therefore, there was much less opportunity for conflict between player and coach.

My experience has taught me that most kids who take a bad shot or make a stupid turnover, or commit a terrible foul don't see it that way in the moment. Some tend to get frustrated by the embarrassment of being called on it and either pout or lash out, especially if they are taken out of the game. That's mostly reflective of immaturity. That's what I see in Green and Smith frequently.

Most of the time, those same kids see it when they watch it on film, or when you discuss it with them later. The hope is that they don't repeat the mistake. One of my biggest problems with Crean is that those mistakes were repeated again and again because HE didn't understand the importance of each possession. He did demand high-level physical effort and got on kids for not playing at the pace he wanted - but he didn't emphasize situational intelligence. We used to tell our players not to mistake activity for achievement and I think TC was clueless in that regard.

It's pretty obvious to me that Archie values possessions at both ends of the floor. He calls out kids for making mental errors as much as for lack of physical effort. I like that. It makes players better. If you want to play for Archie Miller, you had better learn to accept being held accountable for and correcting your mistakes. If not, you aren't going to be on the floor much. That's going to take some time for some kids and some may never accept it. Those who can't need to look elsewhere.

 

[cryano]

I agree. But I think more to the point, Crean didn't get pissed off about possessions that ended in bad shots being taken or foolish turnovers. Consequently, guys didn't get their asses chewed or put on the bench for those things. Therefore, there was much less opportunity for conflict between player and coach.

My experience has taught me that most kids who take a bad shot or make a stupid turnover, or commit a terrible foul don't see it that way in the moment. Some tend to get frustrated by the embarrassment of being called on it and either pout or lash out, especially if they are taken out of the game. That's mostly reflective of immaturity. That's what I see in Green and Smith frequently.

Most of the time, those same kids see it when they watch it on film, or when you discuss it with them later. The hope is that they don't repeat the mistake. One of my biggest problems with Crean is that those mistakes were repeated again and again because HE didn't understand the importance of each possession. He did demand high-level physical effort and got on kids for not playing at the pace he wanted - but he didn't emphasize situational intelligence. We used to tell our players not to mistake activity for achievement and I think TC was clueless in that regard.

It's pretty obvious to me that Archie values possessions at both ends of the floor. He calls out kids for making mental errors as much as for lack of physical effort. I like that. It makes players better. If you want to play for Archie Miller, you had better learn to accept being held accountable for and correcting your mistakes. If not, you aren't going to be on the floor much. That's going to take some time for some kids and some may never accept it. Those who can't need to look elsewhere.

When has Archie ever called a kid out - or held a kid accountable? Possibly Justin Smith during the NIT.

Generally Archie just stands w his coat pulled back on his hips, then throws his hands up in the air for a ‘visual tantrum’ when something bad happens.

Timeouts dont get called. Players dont get benched.

I disagree w most of what you said about Archie, but liked your perspective on Crean...

 

[coachv jr]

I had a message sent to me over the weekend saying Smith was likely going to transfer. Not set in stone, mind you, but from what my source tells me it's likely.

What does that mean exactly? If I'm guessing, Archie sat down with Justin and his dad and in know uncertain terms laid out what his attitude and approach needs to be to come back next year. I'd love to have the kid back IF he buys into Archie's system; he's ideal to play the packline. But ONLY IF he will commit to it.

who is your source?

 

[coachv jr]

The only one here with the proper insight into this is Feepaw. Lets get his take on this.
Feepaw; what is going on with Smith, you all knowing IU insider you.

hell, half the posters here claim to know someone close to the team who gave him inside info. kind of annoying because why should we believe any of them? anyone can claim anything on the internets

 

[kkott]

Bryant and Yogi more than anyone else. And to a degree, Sheehey. Sometimes it got the better of Bryant. But way too many laid back personalities in recent yrs.

And maybe throw Hulls on that list. He wasn't outwardly 'fiery' but he was tough kid

Smith is such an enigma. super athletic but plays like he just woke up and hasn't had his first cup of coffee yet.

I'd agree to some degree with each of those, especially Sheehey... forgot about him. I'd say Yogi and Jordan were tough players, but I guess I'm thinking more of guys that had a bit of a nasty streak to them.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I had a message sent to me over the weekend saying Smith was likely going to transfer. Not set in stone, mind you, but from what my source tells me it's likely.

What does that mean exactly? If I'm guessing, Archie sat down with Justin and his dad and in know uncertain terms laid out what his attitude and approach needs to be to come back next year. I'd love to have the kid back IF he buys into Archie's system; he's ideal to play the packline. But ONLY IF he will commit to it.

Thanks......

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

who is your source?

Someone who has connections to the program. That's all I can say.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

hell, half the posters here claim to know someone close to the team who gave him inside info. kind of annoying because why should we believe any of them? anyone can claim anything on the internets

I'm not telling you to believe me, or not believe me. Nor will I make 100% promises like feepaw.

I will pass on what I believe to be solid intel. Believe it or not - your call.

 

[MikeHoncho69]

IMHO Smith at his best would be a serious difference maker. Hope he comes back and buys in.

I haven't seen any noticeable growth/improvement in Justin Smith's game in his first two years in Bloomington. When you watch the tape, there's not one particular skill that stands out. Offensively, he's almost non-existent -- he's not a shooter or ball-handler. When he does attack the basket, he's a runaway train destined for a charge, similar to Troy Williams. Defensively, he's an average rebounder, and only an effective on-ball defender when he plays with energy. That's the crux of the issue -- he often lacks hustle, passion and emotion. Too often I watched him jog back on defense and play with a lackadaisical attitude.

With Trayce Jackson-Davis coming in and taking more minutes, I wouldn't be surprised to see Smith transfer. His spot would be better used by a grad-transfer perimeter shooter or Quinones/Beverly in the 2019 class.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

I'd agree to some degree with each of those, especially Sheehey... forgot about him. I'd say Yogi and Jordan were tough players, but I guess I'm thinking more of guys that had a bit of a nasty streak to them.

can't think of many nasty players on the team in recent yrs. I have seen something I never thought I would see...guys on the bench, laughing and cutting it up, late in the game during an eventual home loss. Something I never thought I would see. Many yrs ago, no one on the team would dare even smile if we were in the process of losing a home game. Practice the next few days would have been living hell. Sucks when you realize that much of the long time fan base seems to care more about the Ws and Ls than some guys on the team. Culture thing and it's CAM's job to fix during the off season. Needs to change fast.

 

[Tasmanian Devil]

I haven't seen any noticeable growth/improvement in Justin Smith's game in his first two years in Bloomington. When you watch the tape, there's not one particular skill that stands out. Offensively, he's almost non-existent -- he's not a shooter or ball-handler. When he does attack the basket, he's a runaway train destined for a charge, similar to Troy Williams. Defensively, he's an average rebounder, and only an effective on-ball defender when he plays with energy. That's the crux of the issue -- he often lacks hustle, passion and emotion. Too often I watched him jog back on defense and play with a lackadaisical attitude.

With Trayce Jackson-Davis coming in and taking more minutes, I wouldn't be surprised to see Smith transfer. His spot would be better used by a grad-transfer perimeter shooter or Quinones/Beverly in the 2019 class.

Goes back to Justin's mental approach.

If he completely buys in (which he hasn't up until now) he could become a really good piece of the puzzle.

If he doesn't, then good luck at your next stop, young man.

Hoping for the former, but won't be surprised if it's the latter.

 

[Pryght]

Someone who has connections to the program. That's all I can say.

Did your source know that Forrester was going to transfer?

 

[Al Bino]

When has Archie ever called a kid out - or held a kid accountable? Possibly Justin Smith during the NIT.

Generally Archie just stands w his coat pulled back on his hips, then throws his hands up in the air for a ‘visual tantrum’ when something bad happens.

Timeouts dont get called. Players dont get benched.

I disagree w most of what you said about Archie, but liked your perspective on Crean...

No, he does not publicly "call a kid out" but I have seen him take kids out for mistakes. He just doesn't make a production out of it. I have seen him do it to Smith and Devonte most of all.

He doesn't do it enough for my taste but....