Boogie Fland
- Thread starter hozo4ultimate
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I saw a meme titled “typical family tree in Kentucky “ and it was a picture of a grass field.
Is that when your mom married your Uncle Dad?
Score in the 87 championship game (1987]. Pleasant walk down memory lane for real bball fans. Golden year. Thanks for bringing it up. Best post you ever made by far.
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Just need to pay them more. Pay them twice as much as now is all Woodson needs for success.
This is exactly how I feel. Also, if I were Dolson, I'd establish a handful of characteristics or qualities I'd be looking for in the next coach. Don't zero in on specific coaches initially, like he seemingly did last time. When those guys don't work out, you're left holding the bag, and end up with plan W type guys like Woodson.
Establish some criteria, identify half a dozen guys that fit that criteria, go after all of them initially. There are so many good college coaches, winning games RIGHT NOW, playing an exciting style and brand of basketball. There would have to be 4-5 of them that would have serious interest in an IU program...that, as you said, would have the backing of the entire AD, BOT, and School Administration.
You're proclaiming success after 10-12 games??? wow
Or a wreath, given the time of year....
Why play dumb..oh that’s right…sorry.
I posted about being sad after reading about homicide detectives in KY.
You tried to cheer me up by posting “1987,”.
You did cheer me up since I immediately realized you were referring to the 1987 NCAA championship game when IU beat Syracuse 74-73.
I acknowledged your reference by just citing the score “74-73”.
I posted about being sad after reading about homicide detectives in KY.
You tried to cheer me up by posting “1987,”.
You did cheer me up since I immediately realized you were referring to the 1987 NCAA championship game when IU beat Syracuse 74-73.
I acknowledged your reference by just citing the score “74-73”.
I suspect that getting a culture change in football is much different than in basketball.
I’m no behind the scenes expert, but it seems Cig brought in his staff and some players. He was experienced at working with them, and obviously they all bought into what he was doing. They came because of him, I assume. Do you think Cig is being influenced to a great deal by others? I’m guessing it’s his show.
Now, clearly MW is where the buck stops, but do I think that Matta and Fife were here because Woodson wanted them? Were they here because they believed in MW and bought in? What about the players? Why are they here? Is it possible that there are other influences and things going on that we don’t know about?
I think the overall climate within the athletic department, school, decision makers, etc... needs to somehow, finally, hit the reset button and just be open, actually supportive and enthusiastic, about what a top tier basketball program needs to look like and be, TODAY. Since the mid 90's, even when RMK was still here, Indiana basketball has been chasing a ghost.
Starting today...we don't need our basketball program to be like RMK's was. We don't need the coach to be connected with the state. We don't need to hold ourselves hostage pining for someone like Stevens to come "save us". Resolve that Indiana basketball IS going to be top tier in every single facet a program can be. Facilities, training, recruiting, style of play, NBA preparation...The standard is the standard. No more good ole boy crap. When Indiana Basketball even marginally figures things out, we do great things. Crean 11-12, and then 16. Sampson in 07'. Even Mike Davis, with his run in 02. All terribly flawed coaches, that caught some momentum...what could IU look like with a coach that isn't as flawed...these days with our relative resources versus the rest of the college bball world???!!!
For Phuck's Sake...grow up and get on the same page. Resolve that you're ALL going to be "in" on this. And go get a really good, proven, forward thinking basketball coach. And surround him with all the wonderful tools and support that IU can offer.
I agree with all of that, but….
Who is in charge?
RMK kept the good ole boy network at bay, he was the sheriff. That good boy network never went away and now we have NIL. So much money. This isn’t a program that is owned by Indiana University and managed by a coach. It’s bigger than that and there are multiple agendas at play. Who is to say that last season wasn’t awesome? To some within the program maybe it was.
Always a concern.
I've never even come close to the dynamics that running a major college bball program involve. But I very strongly suspect...if the AD, Prez, BOT, and the coaching staff, are all presenting a unified standard for what IU basketball is, and the team wins... The bigger money people that drive a chunk of our NIL and other aspects of the program...they'll fall in to place.
I think we've spent too many years worrying about things like that, and have forgotten that the binding element here, is quality, reliable, winning basketball.
In business, its sales and profits. In basketball, its winning. When management or leadership are all on the same page, and winning, its nearly impossible for outside actors to effect change that goes against the ongoing successful efforts of the team.
Agreed. Strong leadership and buy -in at all levels of the organization is needed. Everyone with the same goals, objectives, etc.
I tend to be cynical, but I have seen other organizations fail and no matter how many new coaches they get or top players they draft, they fail.
Its much easier said than done. But its almost always better to establish what it is, and who you want to be, and then go find the leaders that best embody that.
I think Indiana has been epically awful at 1) getting everyone on the same page about what IU basketball is, and should be... 2) Picking coaches that embody that. It seems like they're constantly at odds with each other. Going from Bob Knight to Mike Davis...what??? Going from Knight/Davis to Sampson...what??? Archie Miller...what??? And then a high major program, trying to become a perennial championship level team hiring someone like Woodson...what???
Yes I said it last year and will delete my account if May fails at Michigan and gets fired. We should of fired Woodson and hired May.
There was no doubt RMK was in charge. There's no doubt that Cig is in charge. I'd say that's a common trait among really good coaches and successful leaders. I don't think BIll Gates was any less in charge, just looked more goofy while doing it. Or that Warren Buffett is in charge. A successful coach will demand/insure things be done his way and that's fine as long as it fits with the framework of IN basketball as IUNorth described. I just want folks to recognize our AD needs to lead the charge and let him do a thorough search and find the best candidate. I think that's been our major downfall: we've locked in on a particular candidate and not turned over every stone to try and find the very best guy. Kelvin appealed to the Chairman at the time and that's who we got. Crean was the best name we could find for that mess and had been to a F4. Archie was the flavor of the month. Woody was the IU legend who was buddies with the Pres of the BOT. Let the AD conduct a thorough search and hire the guy he feels will be the best for IU. May be a name we know, may be a young up and comer, like RMK was out of Army. I do know that I'd definitely be contacting Dusty May and the guy at Iowa St.
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It would seem to me, you are saying with point one is that IU should determine what they want the basketball culture at IU to be.
IMO, the coach is the one that determines HIS culture. Get the right coach and he will install and instill the culture he wants at IU.
Example one - RMK.
IU was the Hurrying Hoosiers until RMK got here.
Example two - CCC
Now SD might have seen in CCC what he wanted at IU but it is CCC that has installed HIS culture at IU.
If you limit yourself to one particular set of qualifications then you exclude potential coaches that could be successful at IU.
This is completely wrong.
The reason Indiana won big under Knight was because of great coaching.
If you want to be good, that's what you go after.
Get rid of the me first NBA or bust mindset and build a team of winners.
Kelvin Sampson is a GREAT basketball coach...
Historically, Archie Miller was and has been, a good basketball coach...
There are A LOT of good, effective coaches out there. Indiana has had a few since RMK left. They all failed, for various reasons, because they both didn't fit the specific job at IU, and/or wasn't on the same page with all the key stakeholders.
I'm not saying Dolson and Buckner and Whitten need to get together and agree that we need to have a coach that runs 5 out, switching man to man defense, only recruits portal kids, etc... But it would strengthen the job if they all got together and agreed on higher level things.
Just like Woodson struggles getting elite level perimeter recruits, because his style hasn't been conducive to those types of players... Having the AD, Prez, and BOT at odds with each other eliminates a class of coach, that wouldn't want to walk in to such a situation, when they have other similar options.
I'm more talking about what the culture surrounding and "above" the program needs to be.
If the BOT, Prez, and AD are all in lockstep that Indiana basketball is a world class organization. It needs to be at a certain standard. It needs to attract top level talent (coaching and players). I find it hard to believe Woodson is ever even a consideration.
Obviously the coach ends up defining what the fans all see the program "is".
Amazon would never hire someone like Woodson to run one of their top departments. As a very rough example. Because he doesn't fit who they are, or what they're wanting to be.
Yes, the coach instills his culture, but how does that fit with the school?
Example: IU hires Sampson. The day of that hire I asked if IU was trying to become Oklahoma in basketball.
You need to let a coach instill his culture, but it is up to the organization to decide if the culture matches the organization. I think @IUNorth did a good job of bringing that up.
Culture isn’t about just what one sees on the court, BTW.
Nobody would be fretting about culture if we were winning more games, winning or at least making good runs in conference and national championships, not losing games by double digits so often. Cignetti's "culture" was immediately accepted because his teams immediately started winning games. Culture is instilled by virtue of demonstrated success. Woodson has never demonstrated any sustained success as the IU coach, so he's unable to instill any culture.
Maybe I am just not understanding what your point is.
Let's go this way,
YOU are the sole person responsible for hiring the next coach at IU.
What are the parameters that you would use?
Who would you interview and why?
Who would you exclude and why?
2 different things we're talking about.
I'm saying Dolson, Buckner and the BOT, and Whitten need to figure out how to be on the same page. Figure out what the standard is for Indiana basketball. "We want to be great." Ok, what does that mean? Do we want the program to stay connected with RMK? Do we want recruiting to be "Purdue like", taking more HS players and developing them over time? Or do we want it to be full on portal kids every year? Or a blend? Do we want to allow access and control from big donors? Do we want to play tons of made for TV, neutral site games like Duke does? Or do we want to fill OOC games with home games? Do we want coaching staffs that are higher profile names, have proven successes in the past, etc... without any expectation for progressive thinking coaches, up with the times philosophies, etc...? Develop a broad and basic framework and standard for what IU basketball will be expected to be.
Then...go get coaches that will fit well within that framework.
If I'm Dolson, maybe it doesn't really matter what I think should be the right direction? And that's a huge problem if so. But if I'm Dolson, I'm pushing hard for IU basketball to be (answers to above questions):
1. Not necessarily tied to RMK, in any way. If there are candidates for various positions that fit the overall program, that have RMK ties, great. But it should never be any sort of requirement or even deciding factor, in any way. Study modern successful businesses and organizations, their management style and structure, and emulate things that relate to athletics. With the goal being that IU athletics, and basketball in particular, become a highly sought after organization for talented professionals.
2. Recruiting should be a blend of all available pools of talent. Like the overall organization, Indiana basketball should always be actively looking for the best and most gifted players. HS players, Portal Players, AND foreign born players. Indiana needs to be highly active, involved, connected with, etc... all of those recruiting pools. Make sure the NIL resources available are always being fully maximized.
3. In some ways bigger donors should be embraced and included. But as far as staff and roster decisions, it needs to be very clear they do not make any decisions for Indiana Basketball.
4. Blend of neutral site games, and home games. Seek out a couple more higher profile neutral site games every year. Seek out some higher quality home and homes. But don't give up "most" of your OOC home games. Students and season ticket holders deserve a good number of home games.
5. With regards to coaching candidates. Proven COLLEGE coaches. Forward thinking. Proven to be able to recruit well against their peers. Personalities such that they should be able to comfortably navigate all the IU Coaching Media and PR duties. If that's some up and comer like McCollum, great. If its a more proven guy like Otz, great. But don't zero in and focus on guys like Pearl, Beard, etc... if they don't fit the rest of the overall criteria. In fact, don't even include them in the search if they don't.
I don't know the specific answers to your last few questions. These are abstract thoughts on my end.
Let me take a stab at this...............we want to win the B10 every year and make deep runs in the Big Dance every year by whatever means required.
Mike Davis stepped down as coach of Detroit’s Mercy after going 1-31 so should be available. We need Quinn’s thoughts on Davis but don’t believe they are golfing buddies.
So, to do what no coach in the history of IU has done...and to do what no coach in college has ever done, except for UCLA when they were cheating their asses off?
Might as well ask the coach to do peace in the middle east while we are at it.
One last thing because I don't want to think about that train wreck last night.
You mention Dolson, Buckner, BOT and the Pres and then a list of questions.
IMO, of those four entities, only one is qualified to answer almost all of the questions you posed in that paragraph.
What knowledge or expertise does the Pres or the BOT have to answer those questions? You could argue that Buckner has the knowledge but if rumors are to be believe then he is a prime reason IU is where it is.
This next coaching decision should be SD's and SD's alone with consultation with the Pres.
The next coach will answer most of those questions, IF, IU hires the right guy.
In an ideal world, Scott develops and presents the vision for IUBB to Pam, gets her on board, and then goes to the BoT and donors. The BoT and donors can ask questions, but the questions should be very high level and basic -- such as what sort of results (wins) is Scott committing to (and is it enough) and what will it cost. Then everyone agrees on what is expected of Scott and Scott goes and hires a coach and works to execute the IUBB plan. And in the following years Pam and the BoT track if Scott is delivering the results he agreed to. If he does great, if not that's on Scott and it could have consequences for him.
Bottom line -- everyone agree on the on-court results expected and let Scott do his thing. We do not need unqualified people, such as trustees and donors, messing with Scott's job. They will almost always make things worse, especially when some of them have serious conflicts such as a best pal they want to have the HC job.
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