Behind the 8-Ball...

[IUCol]

Over the 20+ years I've been a part of an IU FB fan site, I have stated several times that I think of the Power-5 bunch, there is no tougher coaching job than IU. There are many reasons...we have beat them around in here for years. We have all been hard on Allen for one reason or many, to some degree or another, but I think it's important to remind ourselves that the chronic problems of trying to build a stable FB program have never gone away and most are external.

Regionally, we are challenged from every direction for recruits. Everyone knows this. But the impact of this cant be overstated. I think the reason we see an uptick in talent from the past has as much to do with the fact that there are more talented kids out there than ever before, at least as much as those doing the recruiting. We aren't moving nor is anyone else so that factor isn't changing...ever.

Lack of tradition is a bit amorphous if pinning down because winning brings tradition and losing usually doesn't, though some smaller schools do maintain a level of support we don't. But its not the median. We do have some threads of tradition but not much and recruits see this. We aren't going to get any until we win for a long while either. So that aint changing either.

Reputation is close to tradition but not quite the same. As a salesman in my earlier days, I worked for a company that had solid resources and equipment and staff. But in the past, they had left a bad taste in several customers mouths that were eager to spread the word around to other buyers to avoid Company X. It took years for me to break that down and re-earn their trust. IIU FB has made may promises to recruits...we have delivered on very little except personal growth and education, which is no small thing.

While having diner with friends recently, I made the lament that if "Northwestern can do it, so can IU!" Both being grads of NW, and both sons too, they laughed at me. NW had a FB program that sat on the bottom of the B10 for decades. Really bad. Then a solid, lucky hire, policy changes internal, they removed the few barriers to winning and surged ahead. But can IU duplicate it? No, not really. You see, once NW removed the issues standing in the way, they had one of the country's best recruiting tools sitting in their hands...they are Northwestern. They are virtually an Ivy League school. A degree from there is worth 10 IU degrees, believe me. So they have a program that wins now and can walk into any living room and say hey, how about a degree that guarantees your future employment...anywhere. IU is good but cant match that even close. I shut up about it and ate my salad.

Now what? I support Allen. I needed to remind myself what he is up against. I remember being in a similar situation, though the men are very different, with Cameron. He struggled. But he finally seemed to get it in his 5th year..and they fired him. Maybe he would have failed anyway, but an idea occurred to me then that seems as relevant now...we may have to grow our coach...let him figure it out...and that take a lot of time at IU. The puzzle is complex...but I still believe it can be done to a certain acceptable degree (wow wasn't that evasive!...vbg). Allen need adequate time to see what he can do with the puzzle box that is IU FB.

Patience...even when it hurts...may be the only formula to winning. And we will only find out by waiting to see. Give it more time. Patience. Deep breath...count to ten...see its better. Lets go see what we can do with Maryland. We will know more then...

 

[Bowlmania]

Over the 20+ years I've been a part of an IU FB fan site, I have stated several times that I think of the Power-5 bunch, there is no tougher coaching job than IU. There are many reasons...we have beat them around in here for years. We have all been hard on Allen for one reason or many, to some degree or another, but I think it's important to remind ourselves that the chronic problems of trying to build a stable FB program have never gone away and most are external.

Regionally, we are challenged from every direction for recruits. Everyone knows this. But the impact of this cant be overstated. I think the reason we see an uptick in talent from the past has as much to do with the fact that there are more talented kids out there than ever before, at least as much as those doing the recruiting. We aren't moving nor is anyone else so that factor isn't changing...ever.

Lack of tradition is a bit amorphous if pinning down because winning brings tradition and losing usually doesn't, though some smaller schools do maintain a level of support we don't. But its not the median. We do have some threads of tradition but not much and recruits see this. We aren't going to get any until we win for a long while either. So that aint changing either.

Reputation is close to tradition but not quite the same. As a salesman in my earlier days, I worked for a company that had solid resources and equipment and staff. But in the past, they had left a bad taste in several customers mouths that were eager to spread the word around to other buyers to avoid Company X. It took years for me to break that down and re-earn their trust. IIU FB has made may promises to recruits...we have delivered on very little except personal growth and education, which is no small thing.

While having diner with friends recently, I made the lament that if "Northwestern can do it, so can IU!" Both being grads of NW, and both sons too, they laughed at me. NW had a FB program that sat on the bottom of the B10 for decades. Really bad. Then a solid, lucky hire, policy changes internal, they removed the few barriers to winning and surged ahead. But can IU duplicate it? No, not really. You see, once NW removed the issues standing in the way, they had one of the country's best recruiting tools sitting in their hands...they are Northwestern. They are virtually an Ivy League school. A degree from there is worth 10 IU degrees, believe me. So they have a program that wins now and can walk into any living room and say hey, how about a degree that guarantees your future employment...anywhere. IU is good but cant match that even close. I shut up about it and ate my salad.

Now what? I support Allen. I needed to remind myself what he is up against. I remember being in a similar situation, though the men are very different, with Cameron. He struggled. But he finally seemed to get it in his 5th year..and they fired him. Maybe he would have failed anyway, but an idea occurred to me then that seems as relevant now...we may have to grow our coach...let his figure it out...and that take a lot of time at IU. The puzzle is complex...but I still believe it can be done to a certain acceptable degree (wow wasn't that evasive!...vbg). Allen need adequate time to see what he can do with the puzzle box that is IU FB.

Patiance...even when it hurts...may be the only formula to winning. And we will only find out by waiting to see. Give it more time. Patience. Deep breath...count to ten...see its better. Lets go see what we can do with Maryland. We will know more then...

Not sure I agree that the "Ivy League" sell was a major factor in Northwestern's football resurgence. What really benefited them was they hit a coaching trifecta in Barnett, Walker and Fitzgerald.

 

[IUCol]

Not sure I agree that the "Ivy League" sell was a major factor in Northwestern's football resurgence. What really benefited them was they hit a coaching trifecta in Barnett, Walker and Fitzgerald.

Not according to those attending NW during that period. But who can say unless you were in the mind of any recruit. But the results show...and coaching cant be all of it...imo.

PS ...like the way the only thing you had to say was a negative, Glad Im not you.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Not sure I agree that the "Ivy League" sell was a major factor in Northwestern's football resurgence. What really benefited them was they hit a coaching trifecta in Barnett, Walker and Fitzgerald.

Agreed, some real talent at the top made all the difference. NW is a great academic institution, hardly worth 10 IUs , but tops in the BIG overall.

 

[awaHoosier]

I think you missed the big one...fan apathy. If you follow any recruit/player on twitter, the main reaction they have to IU is not coaching nor facilities nor history. It is the apathy of the fanbase. Any player or recruit can go to social media and see the apathy. They can come to this free boad and see the apathy. They can bring up IU football with any person with an IU shirt on and personally hear the apathy. They can watch any IU football game and see the apathy.

Then they can watch most any other team play (and even when they are 0-5) the fans fill the stadium and cheer for the team. The fans may not agree with everything and are very likely expressing their concerns to those that can fix them, but they show up and cheer for the entire game.

 

[IUCol]

Agreed, some real talent at the top made all the difference. NW is a great academic institution, hardly worth 10 IUs , but tops in the BIG overall.

Obviously you don't have a degree from NW..thats a no brainer...lol

 

[IUCol]

I think you missed the big one...fan apathy. If you follow any recruit/player on twitter, the main reaction they have to IU is not coaching nor facilities nor history. It is the apathy of the fanbase. Any player or recruit can go to social media and see the apathy. They can come to this free boad and see the apathy. They can bring up IU football with any person with an IU shirt on and personally hear the apathy. They can watch any IU football game and see the apathy.

Then they can watch most any other team play (and even when they are 0-5) the fans fill the stadium and cheer for the team. The fans may not agree with everything and are very likely expressing their concerns to those that can fix them, but they show up and cheer for the entire game.

Good point...I kinda included that in my mind in tradition...but its worth breaking out as an issue over time.

 

[Flooded Timber]

Sorry, I don't buy fan apathy. Crowds are driven by product. According to the NCAA, four big ten teams had lower average attendance than IU in 2017. They were Northwestern, Illinois, Rutgers and Maryland. Throw out NW due to its traditional limited on-site support and the other three were poor football teams. Fans come to see wins and/or good football. You don't provide it, they won't come. Need another example? Which FBS team had the largest increase in average attendance from 2016 to 2017. Yep, the team up north in West Lafayette. Increased a per game average of 13,433. Why? Take a guess. I say bad football to good football.

 

[awaHoosier]

I understand why fans are apathetic to IU football. I understand winning will resolve a lot in regards to this apathy.

I live in indiana. I talk to both IU and Purdue fans. When I bring up IU football with IU fans, I get laughed at, mocked, and ridiculed. When I bring up Purdue football with Purdue fans, even during the bad years, there is still optimism that things will get better.

I understand the apathy. I am missing my first IU football game for the year this weekend. and unfortunately, it doesnt bother me to miss it. My point was adding on to what IUCol started this thread about and that is what an IU football coach has going against them as IU head football coach. And if you dont think fan apathy is a huge anchor on the success of football here, ask coach wilson.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Obviously you don't have a degree from NW..thats a no brainer...lol

Smh

 

[Flooded Timber]

As an addition to this fan apathy argument, IU's football history has been awful. Success has been limited and sporadic, at best. IU fans have been let down many, many times. A glimmer of hope that somehow goes away or is taken away. They need to "learn" the fanatic behavior based upon some sustained success and when I say sustained success, I am talking a few bowl games with maybe a win, a few unexpected wins and few, if any, unexpected losses. Need some success to teach us it can happen and, more importantly, can continue to happen.

 

[ESalum86]

Which FBS team had the largest increase in average attendance from 2016 to 2017. Yep, the team up north in West Lafayette. Increased a per game average of 13,433. Why? Take a guess. I say bad football to good football.

2017 was the first season for both Brohm and CTA. Both teams entered the Bucket game with 5-6 records. You cannot honestly claim PU played good footbalI all of 2017. But, their fans went crazy when they hired a mid-major coach with three years experience and jumped on the bandwagon. Why? What possible reason did they have to believe things would change overnight?

In 2018 PU started out 0-3, with a loss to Eastern Michigan. Their fans kept filling the stadium and kept talking trash about how much better they were than IU and how they would compete for the B1G West title.

IU fans bitch and moan about the weather, the OC, no national search, facilities, etc. If they do show up in the stadium, they leave as soon as something bad happens. It's a friggin' 60 minute game filled with ups and downs. Sure, coaching makes a difference, but so does fan support!

You want to offer constructive criticism, please do so. But fill the damn stadium and support the players who wear INDIANA across their chest. They bust their ass for the privilege of wearing that jersey and they have earned our respect and support!

Eric Tomlinson

 

[Sope Creek]

Not sure I agree that the "Ivy League" sell was a major factor in Northwestern's football resurgence.

Northwestern's recruiting pitch is simple - "We don't offer you a 4 year decision, we offer you a 40 year decision . . . a first class education and network to benefit your entire working career, not just football."

If you don't think that sells upgrade quality athletes, you're mistaken.

 

[Flooded Timber]

Like it or not, PU went to a bowl and won a bowl. Maybe that is why fans stayed with the program in the 0-3 start this year. Was PU a better team than IU last year? Yep. Hate to say it but PU beat Mizzo and Iowa (as well as Indiana and three others) and won their bowl game. IU beat Virgina (good win) Ga Southern, Charleston Southern, Illinois and Rutgers. So did PU have hope of better football than prior years and a better product than prior years (and our product of last year). Yes, in my opinion. Glad you support the team. I just don't think "if fans show up, he will come" is even remotely correct. I was there many years with family of six for every game, success didn't seem to follow.

 

[IU40IU]

Like it or not, PU went to a bowl and won a bowl. Maybe that is why fans stayed with the program in the 0-3 start this year. Was PU a better team than IU last year? Yep. Hate to say it but PU beat Mizzo and Iowa (as well as Indiana and three others) and won their bowl game. IU beat Virgina (good win) Ga Southern, Charleston Southern, Illinois and Rutgers. So did PU have hope of better football than prior years and a better product than prior years (and our product of last year). Yes, in my opinion. Glad you support the team. I just don't think "if fans show up, he will come" is even remotely correct. I was there many years with family of six for every game, success didn't seem to follow.

i can relate. we used to have 8 season tickets....but over the years that number has dwindled to 2. my dad and i go every week, but even now i'm growing tired of the same ole same ole. been going for well over 35 years and i'm ready to hand in my ticket. alas, i will more than likely be back next season for more of the same. i'm a glutton.

 

[Indy_Rider]

2017 was the first season for both Brohm and CTA. Both teams entered the Bucket game with 5-6 records. You cannot honestly claim PU played good footbalI all of 2017. But, their fans went crazy when they hired a mid-major coach with three years experience and jumped on the bandwagon. Why? What possible reason did they have to believe things would change overnight?

In 2018 PU started out 0-3, with a loss to Eastern Michigan. Their fans kept filling the stadium and kept talking trash about how much better they were than IU and how they would compete for the B1G West title.

IU fans bitch and moan about the weather, the OC, no national search, facilities, etc. If they do show up in the stadium, they leave as soon as something bad happens. It's a friggin' 60 minute game filled with ups and downs. Sure, coaching makes a difference, but so does fan support!

You want to offer constructive criticism, please do so. But fill the damn stadium and support the players who wear INDIANA across their chest. They bust their ass for the privilege of wearing that jersey and they have earned our respect and support!

Eric Tomlinson

It has always been debated whether Purdue is a football school or basketball school, which I think answers your point. We are a school that is passionate about both, and was just looking for an excuse to start filling the stadium back up after the Hazel years. I know many stopped going during the Hazel years to show their displeasure in the direction of the program, but they didn't stop being fans which is why they were quick to show up when Brohm was hired. Of course we were also quick to show up Hazel's first year after Hope.

 

[Bowlmania]

Not according to those attending NW during that period. But who can say unless you were in the mind of any recruit. But the results show...and coaching cant be all of it...imo.

PS ...like the way the only thing you had to say was a negative, Glad Im not you.

I respectfully disagreed with you, you "liked" my post, but then you responded with the above. It's becoming increasingly difficult to engage with you. You're kind of, um, erratic.

 

[Bowlmania]

Northwestern's recruiting pitch is simple - "We don't offer you a 4 year decision, we offer you a 40 year decision . . . a first class education and network to benefit your entire working career, not just football."

If you don't think that sells upgrade quality athletes, you're mistaken.

I didn't say a school's academic reputation doesn't factor at all into a school's football success. I just don't think it holds anywhere near the importance as the quality of the HC. For example, Duke and Vanderbilt, two outstanding academic institutions, have suffered through many miserable football seasons. The "great education" sell didn't seem to have much of an impact over the course of decades of losing. Funny, though, how Duke became competitive in football after David Cutcliffe was hired. Same with Vanderbilt. James Franklin was there for three years and, under his leadership, Vanderbilt enjoyed its first nine win seasons in program history. Since he left, though, and under Derek Mason, academics don't seem to be having quite the same effect on the school's football fortunes.

 

[turney333]

Not sure I agree that the "Ivy League" sell was a major factor in Northwestern's football resurgence. What really benefited them was they hit a coaching trifecta in Barnett, Walker and Fitzgerald.

I think people have largely forgotten/overlooked that combined Barnett/Walker only went to 5 bowl games in 14 years.

Barnett caught lightning in a bottle in for 2 seasons, but was completely ineffective in his other 5. After the '95 Rose Bowl season, NW had really rocky path for the next 12 years or so, and didn't reach a point of stability until year 3 or 4 under Fitzgerald

 

[Bowlmania]

I think people have largely forgotten/overlooked that combined Barnett/Walker only went to 5 bowl games in 14 years.

Well, considering the school went to a grand total of one bowl game in the previous 110 years, five bowl games in 14 years wasn't too shabby.

 

[td75]

Since 1970: IU has had 10 seasons of winning or .500 football, Purdue has had 17.

That is not a good record for either institution, both are poor results. Had Purdue not stumbled onto Joe Tiller, the results would be much closer. Purdue made a series of mediocre hires in the 80s/90s that really hurt their progress.

Indiana has struggled since Bill Mallory nosedived in 1995. Mallory's success in Bloomington was contingent upon recruiting and developing a large junior/senior class and winning with it. After the 1993 senior class graduated, he was never able to recruit a class he could really develop and ride to a couple 7 or 8 win seasons. He had done that relatively well in 87', 88', 91' and 93'. His 89' team was a huge bust because even though it had A.T., it just couldn't absorb the graduation losses from the previous year. That's where RECRUITING comes into play.

It's possible to win at IU. I've watched closely, probably more than I should have, and Indiana was VERY, VERY close to getting it right a few years ago with Wilson/Allen...

 

[turney333]

Well, considering the school went to a grand total of one bowl game in the previous 110 years, five bowl games in 14 years wasn't too shabby.

Its still impressive of course, just pointing out that NW had a longer and bumpier road to respectability, certainly goes well beyond just one hire. They easily could have faded back to old NW after Barnett

 

[ORG]

Not according to those attending NW during that period. But who can say unless you were in the mind of any recruit. But the results show...and coaching cant be all of it...imo.

PS ...like the way the only thing you had to say was a negative, Glad Im not you.

So, if the academic excellence thing worked for football, why not EVERY other sport? I'm just wondering . . .

 

[Crimson Crush]

Since 1970: IU has had 10 seasons of winning or .500 football, Purdue has had 17.

That is not a good record for either institution, both are poor results. Had Purdue not stumbled onto Joe Tiller, the results would be much closer. Purdue made a series of mediocre hires in the 80s/90s that really hurt their progress.

Indiana has struggled since Bill Mallory nosedived in 1995. Mallory's success in Bloomington was contingent upon recruiting and developing a large junior/senior class and winning with it. After the 1993 senior class graduated, he was never able to recruit a class he could really develop and ride to a couple 7 or 8 win seasons. He had done that relatively well in 87', 88', 91' and 93'. His 89' team was a huge bust because even though it had A.T., it just couldn't absorb the graduation losses from the previous year. That's where RECRUITING comes into play.

It's possible to win at IU. I've watched closely, probably more than I should have, and Indiana was VERY, VERY close to getting it right a few years ago with Wilson/Allen...

You can thank Clancy Donniger for not capitalizing on any football success in the early 90s. Should have been investing then. That guy was Knight’s lawyer and was scared shi&@less of him and disrupting anything to do with the status quo. Ranks amongst the worst ADs of all time.

 

[Superstar84b]

Over the 20+ years I've been a part of an IU FB fan site, I have stated several times that I think of the Power-5 bunch, there is no tougher coaching job than IU. There are many reasons...we have beat them around in here for years. We have all been hard on Allen for one reason or many, to some degree or another, but I think it's important to remind ourselves that the chronic problems of trying to build a stable FB program have never gone away and most are external.

Regionally, we are challenged from every direction for recruits. Everyone knows this. But the impact of this cant be overstated. I think the reason we see an uptick in talent from the past has as much to do with the fact that there are more talented kids out there than ever before, at least as much as those doing the recruiting. We aren't moving nor is anyone else so that factor isn't changing...ever.

Lack of tradition is a bit amorphous if pinning down because winning brings tradition and losing usually doesn't, though some smaller schools do maintain a level of support we don't. But its not the median. We do have some threads of tradition but not much and recruits see this. We aren't going to get any until we win for a long while either. So that aint changing either.

Reputation is close to tradition but not quite the same. As a salesman in my earlier days, I worked for a company that had solid resources and equipment and staff. But in the past, they had left a bad taste in several customers mouths that were eager to spread the word around to other buyers to avoid Company X. It took years for me to break that down and re-earn their trust. IIU FB has made may promises to recruits...we have delivered on very little except personal growth and education, which is no small thing.

While having diner with friends recently, I made the lament that if "Northwestern can do it, so can IU!" Both being grads of NW, and both sons too, they laughed at me. NW had a FB program that sat on the bottom of the B10 for decades. Really bad. Then a solid, lucky hire, policy changes internal, they removed the few barriers to winning and surged ahead. But can IU duplicate it? No, not really. You see, once NW removed the issues standing in the way, they had one of the country's best recruiting tools sitting in their hands...they are Northwestern. They are virtually an Ivy League school. A degree from there is worth 10 IU degrees, believe me. So they have a program that wins now and can walk into any living room and say hey, how about a degree that guarantees your future employment...anywhere. IU is good but cant match that even close. I shut up about it and ate my salad.

Now what? I support Allen. I needed to remind myself what he is up against. I remember being in a similar situation, though the men are very different, with Cameron. He struggled. But he finally seemed to get it in his 5th year..and they fired him. Maybe he would have failed anyway, but an idea occurred to me then that seems as relevant now...we may have to grow our coach...let him figure it out...and that take a lot of time at IU. The puzzle is complex...but I still believe it can be done to a certain acceptable degree (wow wasn't that evasive!...vbg). Allen need adequate time to see what he can do with the puzzle box that is IU FB.

Patiance...even when it hurts...may be the only formula to winning. And we will only find out by waiting to see. Give it more time. Patience. Deep breath...count to ten...see its better. Lets go see what we can do with Maryland. We will know more then...

I agree with most of what you said. But I was born in Indiana, played in Indiana, and played at Indiana. I think that there’s enough talent in Indianapolis for IU to be sufficient. I think that the campus, facilities, and the opportunity to play at a power 5 school are enough for IU to get sufficient talent. So yes, you may have to take the time to develop the in-state kids, and they may not be ready to play right away, but that’s where player development comes in. Iowa and Wisconsin are in worse recruiting situations IMHO. A 2* lineman from pike is comparable to the talent you’ll see at Iowa and Wisconsin. The issue is IU hasn’t made it a point to identify those kids who may be overlooked within the state. Jason Spriggs May be the best example of guys around the state who get overlooked that IU should target should target. Consider Wes Rogers, Jacob Bailey, Collin Rahrig, and Spriggs. Those are all guys who ended up playing in the trenches, contributing to some of the best rushing attacks IU has boasted, and they were all under the radar Indiana guys. There are usually several guys like that in the state who will not be offered by ND, or Purdue (usually lineman). But since around 2013-14’ IU hasn’t really targeted those type of guys. I’d also note that CKW made it a point to recruit in-state Indiana guys his first couple of recruiting cycles and then IU went bowling. One day he had us raise our hands (in like 2013 I think) and he asked “how many of you are from Indiana?” Then he asked, “how many of you were recruited by Purdue and ND”, and most hands went down. Yet that’s the group that eventually went bowling because there were some good under the radar guys that developed. So I don’t disagree with the challenges IU has in recruiting, but I also think that there are some advantages that put us in a similar position as Iowa and Wisconsin have. We could get similar 2*/3* guys, develop them, and get this thing rolling. Wisconsin and Iowa may be the only big schools in their states, but they have a smaller pool of talent IMHO. IU flat out missed on Riley Neil who I think can be an NFL QB. In this system, with these wideouts he could’ve been good. But he was only a 2*, and although he was 6’6” about 215 coming out, IU deemed him as not worth the development. I don’t think that IU can be successful with that recruiting approach. I think there’s enough talent to develop in this state, and we HAVE to take that approach for the reasons you outlined, and it is doable because other programs have done it in our league.

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

I agree with most of what you said. But I was born in Indiana, played in Indiana, and played at Indiana. I think that there’s enough talent in Indianapolis for IU to be sufficient. I think that the campus, facilities, and the opportunity to play at a power 5 school are enough for IU to get sufficient talent. So yes, you may have to take the time to develop the in-state kids, and they may not be ready to play right away, but that’s where player development comes in. Iowa and Wisconsin are in worse recruiting situations IMHO. A 2* lineman from pike is comparable to the talent you’ll see at Iowa and Wisconsin. The issue is IU hasn’t made it a point to identify those kids who may be overlooked within the state. Jason Spriggs May be the best example of guys around the state who get overlooked that IU should target should target. Consider Wes Rogers, Jacob Bailey, Collin Rahrig, and Spriggs. Those are all guys who ended up playing in the trenches, contributing to some of the best rushing attacks IU has boasted, and they were all under the radar Indiana guys. There are usually several guys like that in the state who will not be offered by ND, or Purdue (usually lineman). But since around 2013-14’ IU hasn’t really targeted those type of guys. I’d also note that CKW made it a point to recruit in-state Indiana guys his first couple of recruiting cycles and then IU went bowling. One day he had us raise our hands (in like 2013 I think) and he asked “how many of you are from Indiana?” Then he asked, “how many of you were recruited by Purdue and ND”, and most hands went down. Yet that’s the group that eventually went bowling because there were some good under the radar guys that developed. So I don’t disagree with the challenges IU has in recruiting, but I also think that there are some advantages that put us in a similar position as Iowa and Wisconsin have. We could get similar 2*/3* guys, develop them, and get this thing rolling. Wisconsin and Iowa may be the only big schools in their states, but they have a smaller pool of talent IMHO. IU flat out missed on Riley Neil who I think can be an NFL QB. In this system, with these wideouts he could’ve been good. But he was only a 2*, and although he was 6’6” about 215 coming out, IU deemed him as not worth the development. I don’t think that IU can be successful with that recruiting approach. I think there’s enough talent to develop in this state, and we HAVE to take that approach for the reasons you outlined, and it is doable because other programs have done it in our league.

If that is our approach we must take, it is even more important to the success of the program to have a quality staff and support personnel. It sounds that those guys will be just as important as the HC and coordinators are to our success. I’m fine with the approach but we should make every effort to have the best people in place making those 2* into producers their Jr and Sr years. We can’t afford to wait and figure out we need better coaches after a batch isn’t ready. It sets us back 4-6 years each time.....flush repeat.

 

[Crimson Crush]

I agree with most of what you said. But I was born in Indiana, played in Indiana, and played at Indiana. I think that there’s enough talent in Indianapolis for IU to be sufficient. I think that the campus, facilities, and the opportunity to play at a power 5 school are enough for IU to get sufficient talent. So yes, you may have to take the time to develop the in-state kids, and they may not be ready to play right away, but that’s where player development comes in. Iowa and Wisconsin are in worse recruiting situations IMHO. A 2* lineman from pike is comparable to the talent you’ll see at Iowa and Wisconsin. The issue is IU hasn’t made it a point to identify those kids who may be overlooked within the state. Jason Spriggs May be the best example of guys around the state who get overlooked that IU should target should target. Consider Wes Rogers, Jacob Bailey, Collin Rahrig, and Spriggs. Those are all guys who ended up playing in the trenches, contributing to some of the best rushing attacks IU has boasted, and they were all under the radar Indiana guys. There are usually several guys like that in the state who will not be offered by ND, or Purdue (usually lineman). But since around 2013-14’ IU hasn’t really targeted those type of guys. I’d also note that CKW made it a point to recruit in-state Indiana guys his first couple of recruiting cycles and then IU went bowling. One day he had us raise our hands (in like 2013 I think) and he asked “how many of you are from Indiana?” Then he asked, “how many of you were recruited by Purdue and ND”, and most hands went down. Yet that’s the group that eventually went bowling because there were some good under the radar guys that developed. So I don’t disagree with the challenges IU has in recruiting, but I also think that there are some advantages that put us in a similar position as Iowa and Wisconsin have. We could get similar 2*/3* guys, develop them, and get this thing rolling. Wisconsin and Iowa may be the only big schools in their states, but they have a smaller pool of talent IMHO. IU flat out missed on Riley Neil who I think can be an NFL QB. In this system, with these wideouts he could’ve been good. But he was only a 2*, and although he was 6’6” about 215 coming out, IU deemed him as not worth the development. I don’t think that IU can be successful with that recruiting approach. I think there’s enough talent to develop in this state, and we HAVE to take that approach for the reasons you outlined, and it is doable because other programs have done it in our league.

Hiller and Hagan have done an awful job of developing their lines. Softest group we’ve seen in decades.

 

[Indianaftw]

Hiller and Hagan have done an awful job of developing their lines. Softest group we’ve seen in decades.

Agree...This is where Allen has to take a hard stance and make changes at years end. There are two things too consider. Coaching and recruiting with assistants IMO. Personally I think recruiting is harder especially at a place like IU but you get good recruiters and its easier to develop the players.

I expected our D-line to be much better this year. While the O-line has made some improvement its not where I thought it would be. It sucks we lost Ellison and Gest. I have noticed we are running zone schemes again and using the cutback BUT Stevie is the wrong guy for that we need a speedster back there.

The coaches got a well deserved break at a crucial time last week. That extra week is the time to make the kinds of changes to move forward and improve. The jury is out and I'm anxious to see the results.

 

[Superstar84b]

Agree...This is where Allen has to take a hard stance and make changes at years end. There are two things too consider. Coaching and recruiting with assistants IMO. Personally I think recruiting is harder especially at a place like IU but you get good recruiters and its easier to develop the players.

I expected our D-line to be much better this year. While the O-line has made some improvement its not where I thought it would be. It sucks we lost Ellison and Gest. I have noticed we are running zone schemes again and using the cutback BUT Stevie is the wrong guy for that we need a speedster back there.

The coaches got a well deserved break at a crucial time last week. That extra week is the time to make the kinds of changes to move forward and improve. The jury is out and I'm anxious to see the results.

Yeah. I mean the one good year Hagen had was essentially with the guys on the Dline that McDaniels developed. I like Hagen, but I agree that the lines are soft, and part of the develop approach comes down to S&C and player development. I’m not giving up on CTA but the OL coach probably has to go ASAP

 

[IUCol]

I kept saying that maybe losing GF was a bigger deal than losing Wilson. Many poopooed the idea...they were wrong as is obvious now. Problem is there aren't many impact OL coaches out there to hire...good luck with that one. It took over 20 years to get one good one and lost him quick. He was here just long enough to show us what he could do. Doubters drone on but proof is in the pudding as they say...

 

[td75]

Isn't Greg Frey available?? I thought someone mentioned that he will soon be available??

 

[turney333]

I kept saying that maybe losing GF was a bigger deal than losing Wilson. Many poopooed the idea...they were wrong as is obvious now. Problem is there aren't many impact OL coaches out there to hire...good luck with that one. It took over 20 years to get one good one and lost him quick. He was here just long enough to show us what he could do. Doubters drone on but proof is in the pudding as they say...

I think the jury is still out on Frey. Not to say he's a bad coach, but I think you are placing him on quite a pedestal that he doesn't quite deserve.

The only high quality lines he ever coached had Spriggs and Feeney, and this is not just IU, that's for his whole career. His first stint at Michigan was a disaster (though RR's offense was certainly a big reason) and corresponded to some of the worst years in Michigan football history. In his last year at IU, the OL was a mess when Feeney was out injured. And Michigan's line got significantly better this year, when Frey left for FSU. And FSU's OL has regressed under Frey from last year. Now the last 2 years are small sample sizes and probably doesn't mean he is a bad coach, but it does show that he is not some miracle worker.

Overall, Frey's track record isn't as stellar as you think

 

[76-1]

I think the jury is still out on Frey. Not to say he's a bad coach, but I think you are placing him on quite a pedestal that he doesn't quite deserve.

The only high quality lines he ever coached had Spriggs and Feeney, and this is not just IU, that's for his whole career. His first stint at Michigan was a disaster (though RR's offense was certainly a big reason) and corresponded to some of the worst years in Michigan football history. In his last year at IU, the OL was a mess when Feeney was out injured. And Michigan's line got significantly better this year, when Frey left for FSU. And FSU's OL has regressed under Frey from last year. Now the last 2 years are small sample sizes and probably doesn't mean he is a bad coach, but it does show that he is not some miracle worker.

Overall, Frey's track record isn't as stellar as you think

Thank you. I don't hate the guy. I just think that he's more than a bit on the overrated side.

People forget that while he was here he also had Wilson and Patton working alongside him (both decent OL coaches in their own right).

I don't wish the guy any ill will and I hope he hits his stride down at his alma mater but so far I don't see him being either the loss or the answer that a few do...

At any rate, he's long gone and unlikely to be back unless they cut him loose at Florida State and if he couldn't get it done with that talent pool I don't see him getting it done here. These are his (Freys) recruits we're struggling with..., by the way...

 

[IUCol]

He coached the only 2 AA we ever had on the Oline and coached them to the best oline in the b10 2 years....I will take that over the hyperbole...getting a top line is the hardest thing in college fb to do and he and Wilson did it...talk is cheap...results walk...