B17 and P63 collide

[Marvin the Martian]

Two WW2 era planes collided at a Dallas air show. A P63 fighter was coming in and banking, the 17 was flying straight, and they met. I doubt the fighter pilot ever saw the 17 due to the bank, the 17 probably had not nearly enough maneuverability to avoid it.

Obviously sad for the people, I doubt anyone survived. Sad for the history, functional B17s are getting very few.

Planes crash in mid-air, sending debris flying

Two planes collided in mid-air at the Wings Over Dallas event Saturday, sending debris flying to Highway 67 in Dallas, Texas.

www.google.com

 

[Crayfish57]

Two WW2 era planes collided at a Dallas air show. A P63 fighter was coming in and banking, the 17 was flying straight, and they met. I doubt the fighter pilot ever saw the 17 due to the bank, the 17 probably had not nearly enough maneuverability to avoid it.

Obviously sad for the people, I doubt anyone survived. Sad for the history, functional B17s are getting very few.

Planes crash in mid-air, sending debris flying

Two planes collided in mid-air at the Wings Over Dallas event Saturday, sending debris flying to Highway 67 in Dallas, Texas.

www.google.com

I am all for preservation but sometimes wonder how many should actually be flying anymore? Maybe out in wide open clear space only? Seeing all those planes at the end of The Best Years Of Our Lives getting scrapped was kind of depressing but there comes a time.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I am all for preservation but sometimes wonder how many should actually be flying anymore? Maybe out in wide open clear space only? Seeing all those planes at the end of The Best Years Of Our Lives getting scrapped was kind of depressing but there comes a time.

I have watched many 17s formation fly with fighters, often Mustangs. I get a lump in my throat every time, it is magical (yes, I am so thrilled Hanks/Spielberg series will soon be out).

But I think you are right, retire the remaining fleet so they can be adored by future generations as static displays.

 

[Crayfish57]

I have watched many 17s formation fly with fighters, often Mustangs. I get a lump in my throat every time, it is magical (yes, I am so thrilled Hanks/Spielberg series will soon be out).

But I think you are right, retire the remaining fleet so they can be adored by future generations as static displays.

I am not up on planes but imagine keeping an old Jenny flying is a lot simpler than those planes. Safety has to be an issue at some point. I also agree we need to preserve at least a few of them. We have tanks as monuments but no one is out driving them around that I know of and even if so the safety factor is better . I fear mostly for airshow crowds .

 

[Crayfish57]

I have a pre Civil War muzzle loader . Its cool but I sure wouldnt fire it at this point in its condition

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I have a pre Civil War muzzle loader . Its cool but I sure wouldnt fire it at this point in its condition

Those are cool. Congrats for having it.

I have a buddy with a Sharp's carbine from the Civil War. Like you, he has zero interest/trust in firing it. But his GGG grandfather captured it from a surrendering union soldier and it has been in the family since.

 

[Crayfish57]

Those are cool. Congrats for having it.

I have a buddy with a Sharp's carbine from the Civil War. Like you, he has zero interest/trust in firing it. But his GGG grandfather captured it from a surrendering union soldier and it has been in the family since.

A few years ago at the Shipshewana auction someone had a old muzzle loader in the sale . As they got close some guy was looking at it, and ended up pulling the trigger. It was loaded! bullet went right over the auctioneers head and blew a hole in the roof . 50 caliber!

 

[Marvin the Martian]

A few years ago at the Shipshewana auction someone had a old muzzle loader in the sale . As they got close some guy was looking at it, and ended up pulling the trigger. It was loaded! bullet went right over the auctioneers head and blew a hole in the roof . 50 caliber!

Did you go over and say hi to Mr Baldwin?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I am not up on planes but imagine keeping an old Jenny flying is a lot simpler than those planes. Safety has to be an issue at some point. I also agree we need to preserve at least a few of them. We have tanks as monuments but no one is out driving them around that I know of and even if so the safety factor is better . I fear mostly for airshow crowds .

The aeronautical design of those plans works exactly the same now, as it did when they were designed (and preformed). The folks that bring those back into service, spend 100's of thousands to meet air worthy classifications and find serviceable parts, not to forget the YEARS spent doing it.
The planes are "safe" as when brand new (if not much more so).
Mid Air incidents are not a matter of a safe plane. Now not having proper ATC or today's current navigation aids, that is a different story, but totally nothing to do with an old historic plane. Hell, my plane is a 1965 and originaly didn't have much more navigation than those planes. But a few $$$$ later, it does now! They could have too.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The aeronautical design of those plans works exactly the same now, as it did when they were designed (and preformed). The folks that bring those back into service, spend 100's of thousands to meet air worthy classifications and find serviceable parts, not to forget the YEARS spent doing it.
The planes are "safe" as when brand new (if not much more so).
Mid Air incidents are not a matter of a safe plane. Now not having proper ATC or today's current navigation aids, that is a different story, but totally nothing to do with an old historic plane. Hell, my plane is a 1965 and originaly didn't have much more navigation than those planes. But a few $$$$ later, it does now! They could have too.

A witness said the fighter was in a flight of 3, it broke off from the other 2. Pilot error sounds plausible.

The shows are highly choreographed, if a pilot loses track of where they are in the choreography bad things happen. That may/may not be what happened here.

 

[sglowrider]

I have a pre Civil War muzzle loader . Its cool but I sure wouldnt fire it at this point in its condition

I have travelled on some pretty scary old prop planes in Indonesia that were first introduced in the 60s. That 'airline' had cannibalised some of the parts of the older planes to keep its fleet flying. Needless to say, they have had a history of crashes.

 

[Bill4411]

There were a lot of deaths from the training exercises for those planes before those planes ever made it to Europe. I got a chance to see the insides of a B-24 and it looked none to safe on the ground let alone in the air and they were predominantly made out of plywood.

It made me realize how brave the men were who flew them.

 

[76-1]

I am all for preservation but sometimes wonder how many should actually be flying anymore? Maybe out in wide open clear space only? Seeing all those planes at the end of The Best Years Of Our Lives getting scrapped was kind of depressing but there comes a time.

Most of those WW2 era planes were "overbuilt" in order to endure combat damage so as long as there's been proper maintenance done on the plane their airworthiness is rarely a concern... The issue these days is finding pilots who know how to fly them safely...

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I have watched many 17s formation fly with fighters, often Mustangs. I get a lump in my throat every time, it is magical (yes, I am so thrilled Hanks/Spielberg series will soon be out).

But I think you are right, retire the remaining fleet so they can be adored by future generations as static displays.

The planes are better than when they left the factory. They have the ability to make every single part that goes into a B17 or P51. In fact, I visited with a wealthy P51 aficionado several years ago. He was in the business of restoring and maintaining them. He said he could build a brand new one from scratch and has.. But they are very expensive.

I saw the restored Memphis Belle last month. If you haven’t seen it yet, it’s well worth the trip. The restoration Is beautiful.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Most of those WW2 era planes were "overbuilt" in order to endure combat damage so as long as there's been proper maintenance done on the plane their airworthiness is rarely a concern... The issue these days is finding pilots who know how to fly them safely...

I read a book by an WWII ace who flew a P 47– a virtual flying tank. On of the episodes he wrote about was being hounded by a FW 190 who shot the P47 full of 20mm and 30 cal. holes, set it on fire, and lost some control. Still landed safely.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The planes are better than when they left the factory. They have the ability to make every single part that goes into a B17 or P51. In fact, I visited with a wealthy P51 aficionado several years ago. He was in the business of restoring and maintaining them. He said he could build a brand new one from scratch and has.. But they are very expensive.

I saw the restored Memphis Belle last month. If you haven’t seen it yet, it’s well worth the trip. The restoration Is beautiful.

I think I saw this morning there are something like 45 B17s left, 9 that can fly. There are 4 flying P63s left, I don't recall how many static but not many. We are just running out of some of these planes, are they worth preservation for future generations.

I was surprised to learn only one dreadnought still exists, USS Texas. No Fokker triplane exists, and even the blueprints were destroyed.

There are two Vietnam PBR boats left

Vietnam War Vessel to be Repaired, Preserved Thanks to Public-Private Partnership - Patriots Point News & Events

One of the nation’s last remaining MK1 River Patrol Boats (PBR) will be getting a facelift thanks to a dedicated team of professionals who have partnered with Patriots Point to […]

www.patriotspoint.org

Jeremy Clarkson had Amazon build one for their Mekong episode because he was so shocked basically none survive.

There are 7 Tiger tanks left in the world.

I don't know that I find them unsafe. But think of it this way, surviving copies of the Constitution are held in specially constructed vaults and any handling them wears gloves. For some items above, we are getting to that point.

I will have to go see the Belle. I have been in several 17s at air shows, but never the Belle. Thanks for mentioning it.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think I saw this morning there are something like 45 B17s left, 9 that can fly. There are 4 flying P63s left, I don't recall how many static but not many. We are just running out of some of these planes, are they worth preservation for future generations.

I was surprised to learn only one dreadnought still exists, USS Texas. No Fokker triplane exists, and even the blueprints were destroyed.

There are two Vietnam PBR boats left

Vietnam War Vessel to be Repaired, Preserved Thanks to Public-Private Partnership - Patriots Point News & Events

One of the nation’s last remaining MK1 River Patrol Boats (PBR) will be getting a facelift thanks to a dedicated team of professionals who have partnered with Patriots Point to […]

www.patriotspoint.org

Jeremy Clarkson had Amazon build one for their Mekong episode because he was so shocked basically none survive.

There are 7 Tiger tanks left in the world.

I don't know that I find them unsafe. But think of it this way, surviving copies of the Constitution are held in specially constructed vaults and any handling them wears gloves. For some items above, we are getting to that point.

I will have to go see the Belle. I have been in several 17s at air shows, but never the Belle. Thanks for mentioning it.

I rode on and actually drove the last surviving sea worthy PT boat in Key West. We made a torpedo run at a booze cruise boat, and some of the booze cruisers gave us a tit
show. I don’t think that is the first time that happened. The boat superstructure seemed pretty close to what we see on They Were Expendable. Engines are different.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Just because it is similar, I am looking forward to the movie Devotion. I have long felt our Korean vets have been shortchanged. As much as I love MASH, it should not be representative of that war. Bridges at Toko-Ri was a great movie but it isn't though of much any more.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

There were a lot of deaths from the training exercises for those planes before those planes ever made it to Europe. I got a chance to see the insides of a B-24 and it looked none to safe on the ground let alone in the air and they were predominantly made out of plywood.

It made me realize how brave the men were who flew them.

If you look at the bombarder seat in a B24 or even a B17, you hafta wonder how they could sit in that spot for the hours necessary to complete a mission, not to mention being at the leading edge of a flack burst.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Just because it is similar, I am looking forward to the movie Devotion. I have long felt our Korean vets have been shortchanged. As much as I love MASH, it should not be representative of that war. Bridges at Toko-Ri was a great movie but it isn't though of much any more.

A James Michener book.

I think the Korean War memorial on the Mall is the most moving of any war memorial I have seen anywhere. The facial expressions are amazing. The weather was rainy and sleety the first time I saw the memorial. Very appropriate.

 

[Crayfish57]

Just because it is similar, I am looking forward to the movie Devotion. I have long felt our Korean vets have been shortchanged. As much as I love MASH, it should not be representative of that war. Bridges at Toko-Ri was a great movie but it isn't though of much any more.

One of William Holden's best , a big fan. Beer Barrel, Mickey Rooney, Grace Kelly a great cast .

 

[DrHoops]

The aeronautical design of those plans works exactly the same now, as it did when they were designed (and preformed). The folks that bring those back into service, spend 100's of thousands to meet air worthy classifications and find serviceable parts, not to forget the YEARS spent doing it.
The planes are "safe" as when brand new (if not much more so).
Mid Air incidents are not a matter of a safe plane. Now not having proper ATC or today's current navigation aids, that is a different story, but totally nothing to do with an old historic plane. Hell, my plane is a 1965 and originaly didn't have much more navigation than those planes. But a few $$$$ later, it does now! They could have too.

Correct!

 

[walkerman]

The aeronautical design of those plans works exactly the same now, as it did when they were designed (and preformed). The folks that bring those back into service, spend 100's of thousands to meet air worthy classifications and find serviceable parts, not to forget the YEARS spent doing it.
The planes are "safe" as when brand new (if not much more so).
Mid Air incidents are not a matter of a safe plane. Now not having proper ATC or today's current navigation aids, that is a different story, but totally nothing to do with an old historic plane. Hell, my plane is a 1965 and originaly didn't have much more navigation than those planes. But a few $$$$ later, it does now! They could have too.

A few years ago, I gave my adult son as a birthday gift a ride on the 20's something Ford Tri plane that still is at Metro airport in Fishers each summer. The flight was about 20 minutes and was a great experience we both really enjoyed. His own plane is a 1975 that looks brand new inside and out so your post about the design safety of older planes caught my attention.

 

[larsIU]

Things I learned in this thread.

Marv is a savage but saves it for only the most peak opportunity.

Did you go over and say hi to Mr Baldwin?

And far more people than I would have ever thought own planes.

The aeronautical design of those plans works exactly the same now, as it did when they were designed (and preformed). The folks that bring those back into service, spend 100's of thousands to meet air worthy classifications and find serviceable parts, not to forget the YEARS spent doing it.
The planes are "safe" as when brand new (if not much more so).
Mid Air incidents are not a matter of a safe plane. Now not having proper ATC or today's current navigation aids, that is a different story, but totally nothing to do with an old historic plane. Hell, my plane is a 1965 and originaly didn't have much more navigation than those planes. But a few $$$$ later, it does now! They could have too.

A few years ago, I gave my adult son as a birthday gift a ride on the 20's something Ford Tri plane that still is at Metro airport in Fishers each summer. The flight was about 20 minutes and was a great experience we both really enjoyed. His own plane is a 1975 that looks brand new inside and out so your post about the design safety of older planes caught my attention.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Things I learned in this thread.

Marv is a savage but saves it for only the most peak opportunity.




And far more people than I would have ever thought own planes.

Didn't you know? Everyone on the WC is a...

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

A few years ago, I gave my adult son as a birthday gift a ride on the 20's something Ford Tri plane that still is at Metro airport in Fishers each summer. The flight was about 20 minutes and was a great experience we both really enjoyed. His own plane is a 1975 that looks brand new inside and out so your post about the design safety of older planes caught my attention.

ahh the Ford Tri motor. A lot of stories about that plane design! A lot of shenanigans pulled off by Ford..

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Marv is a savage but saves it for only the most peak opportunity.

We were all thinking it.

In real life I am accused of never being serious enough.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Didn't you know? Everyone on the WC is a...

Until they get into aviation! Then they are just Millionaire playboy philanthropist.

 

[TomEric4756]

I have watched many 17s formation fly with fighters, often Mustangs. I get a lump in my throat every time, it is magical (yes, I am so thrilled Hanks/Spielberg series will soon be out).

But I think you are right, retire the remaining fleet so they can be adored by future generations as static displays.

I‘ll beg to disagree Marv. I’d have never seen a B17 and B24 in person were it not for the “flying museum tour” that stopped by a local regional airport. Put at least two in museums, but keep flying those that can still fly, safely. Increase the spacing at the air shows.