marv other than toasted i haven't seen or heard anyone balk about leaving. the complaints i've seen/heard are limited to how it went down yesterday. not providing protection/assistance in getting out for those who helped usI have seen some comments about what all we did wrong, here is one:
— Retired Lt. Gen. DANIEL BOLGER, who commanded troops in Afghanistan: “There's more than enough blame to go around. All four presidential administrations (Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden) and the Congresses of 2001-2021 own a share. Generals and admirals — and I include myself — senior diplomats, and top intelligence leaders got it wrong over and over from start to finish. … Finally, the American people got it wrong. Our government, elected and appointed, works for us. We wanted a response to 9/11. We got that. Then we lost interest. The Taliban did not.”There’s a reason for this consensus: A tacit acknowledgment that officials and national security professionals need a hard look in the mirror.That includes presidents who launched and prolonged an ill-fated war; the generals who assured us success was always six months away; the civilians who believed diplomacy and development would transform Afghan society; the intelligence analysts who missed the Taliban’s true strength; the lawmakers who abdicated their oversight responsibility; the expert class who cheered on further bloodshed; the activists who minimized the consequences of withdrawal; and we in the media for keeping Afghanistan off the front page and prioritizing trivia over troops fighting and dying in battle zones.Ghani was a huge problem. We too often believed what he and others inside the government told us. They told us they had the will of the people. We believed it. We also failed to understand how backing leadership that was openly corrupt would not work, the people knew he and others were ripping them off.
We All Lost Afghanistan
Two decades of mistakes, misjudgments, and collective failurewww.foreignaffairs.com
Yet even with these successes, we oversold the gains. And we did less than we could have about corruption, knowingly working with senior government and military figures that ordinary Afghans saw as responsible for graft and political and human rights abuses. Our counternarcotics program was an abject failure: poppy production continued to increase for most of the past decade, with the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime estimating a 37 percent increase in acres under cultivation in 2020. The hope that Afghanistan’s economic growth would eventually allow the government to cover its own expenditures was advanced year after year at donors’ conferences, even though that clearly would not be the case for the foreseeable future. Grandiose projects languished: it took 15 years to install a new turbine on Kajaki Dam, a symbol of American largess toward Afghanistan in the 1950s.
Arm the women
- Thread starter toastedbread
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Someone once said "Give me liberty, or give me death." Some folks believe that, wholeheartedly. If you don't believe that, or something akin to it, you've lost.
I don't know why the people weren't gotten out sooner. Part of it might have been the Afghanistan government, 60,000 people leaving would certainly be a blow to the morale of the army showing we had no faith they would last. Part of it might be vetting. Imagine if someone got out and came here and carried out a terrorist attack. And a big part of it might be incompetence.
We had enough time that CBS created a sitcom based on the premise that started airing last fall. As I said elsewhere if vetting was a problem get the Brits to let us house them in Diego Garcia (or use any of our bases elsewhere) while vetting happened. So yes, we signed an agreement early last year and basically did nothing since. I am not sure we would have done anything if we stayed 6 months.
Inertia. Most folks don't want to disrupt their flow . . . until forced to. Americans are like that . . . it's why we're needlessly tied to fossil fuels . . . why would we expect Afghans to be any different? They had someone else doing their heavy lifting . . . why rock that boat? It's only because we decided not to do their heavy lifting any more that they panicked . . . .
I could see someone making an argument that a cliff ending was cruel . . . but at what expense would a tapered ending have been? How would someone tell a parent that their son or daughter died to allow Afghans more time to get out?
I figured once they experienced the joy of bumper cars they'd understand the superiority of liberal democracy like Soviets with Coca Cola and Michael Jackson, right?
A
anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
Your question is the heart of the matter. I have a lot of sympathy for your leanings. But your numbers are off and you are talking about sacrificing a life (lives, actually) that is not yours for a cause not everyone feels as strongly about.
Also, where do we draw the line? When? Should we also stay in Iraq in perpetuity? Somalia? Syria? Should we go to war with Pakistan to end their support of the Taliban?
The unfortunate fact appears to be that there are parts of the world that either do not want or just cannot enact western notions of classical liberalism. I don’t know why it worked in Japan and South Korea, for example, and not elsewhere. I think some part of it must be tied to this notion of corruption being accepted, which might be the flip side of the coin from a respect for the rule of law and a neutral judiciary (that last part shows just how long I’ve been immersed in my profession which I admit means you should take that with a huge grain of salt).
Which numbers?
Tribalism plays a strong part. And arguably religion/Islam, though tribalism predates Islam.
It reminds me of people in the Caucasus fighting over sheep.
I suppose that's where we differ. An afghan life lost is no different to me than an American life lost. But your question is really one for the politicians.
I think your last paragraph can be a good thread of its own.
I think the corruption answer might be it, it also might be that societies have to work their way up to it and can't skip steps (see Germany 1930s and Putin's Russia).
I think we were lucky with Japan, their national culture of respecting strength meant when we defeated them, we had their respect. A story, when MacArthur arrived all the Japanese police/soldiers guarding his route turned their backs to him. We saw it as an insult, they were in fact paying him their highest respect, they hadn't earned the right to face such a powerful man.
South Korea took a long time, their government was horribly corrupt until circa the 1990s. But they had very good reasons to be terrified of North Korea. I also think (just a guess, nothing solid to back it up) just as being seen as a puppet of the US was bad for Afghan leaders, being seen as a puppet of China/Russia was bad for North Korea. Korea had been occupied by China many times and Russia had tremendous power until the Russo-Japanese War.
I agree . . . but whose charge is the American president's?
I guess you could make a case that if America breaks it, it's America's. Take that one to W and Powell . . .
. . . IMHO, Afghanistan was a black hole into which it's impossible to put enough money and manpower to "save" it from itself. Corruption has its costs . . . and it's up to Afghans to decide what to do with the corruption they have . . .
. . . my best hope is that some Afghani soldier who has been trained by Americans and who joined the Taliban army will turn on the other Taliban soldiers and lead a popular revolt.
I somewhat disagree with your second paragraph, but agree with the tenor of your post. I don't foresee a Reza Shah in Afghanistan. It's more likely that there will be infighting amongst factions/splinter groups of the Taliban.
let me know when your ready to go defend them I will pay for the ticketThe handwringer over rescuing the thousands who helped American soldiers is merely a blimp compared to the millions of victims facing the Taliban's version of sharia. It's amusing in a hysterical manner the degree to which this is ignored. How can one possibly be an advocate for women's rights in this country or anywhere around the world, while one ignores the atrocity these women face? It's an incomprehensible position. This is not only a disaster for whatever democratic norms we still pretend to project globally, but it's primarily a disaster for women. Biden should stop pretending he or the United States cares one iota about the farce we call human rights. (The Taliban are squirming at the thought of those naughty sanctions!) Just admit it's solely self-American interest and real politik.
The Taliban’s Return Is Catastrophic for Women
As a photojournalist covering Afghanistan for two decades, I’ve seen how hard the country’s women have fought for their freedom, and how much they have gained. Now they stand to lose everything.www.theatlantic.com
Millions of women's dreams dashed. (perhaps more-so the urbanites of Kabul, but still women of all economic strata will lose everything)
That is worth a hell of a lot in my book, perhaps blood. A terrible example and precedent. Giving someone a taste of freedom and now shoving them back in the closet. Pure torture. Is this Dante's inferno?
In a week the media will be done with Afghanistan, but in all likelihood, these women will suffer for the rest of their lives. At least give them a gun and a chance. Surely, they would perform better than the corrupt rot we observed for 20 years.
A
anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
would you give your life for millions of afghans women's rights , would you give your life for someone whos brother is unwilling to?
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
What we were can be likened to being at someone's house and your friend's enemies have been pounding on the door saying,"get out here because we are gonna kill you". We kept them from coming in because we told them we had a gun and would retaliate if they proceed to try to knock the door in. Then we just say to our friend, "You are now on your own." We unlock the door and just walk out. What kind of friend would we be as the friend is clutching to us begging us to stay and we say, "I got to go"?
We stayed with the friend a long time, bought him his own gun, and taught him how to use it, all while reminding him, we could move in permanently.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
What if you didn't buy him the gun? And criminals were trying to get in? Do you just leave your friend? There is a reason why these people who holding onto the plane in Afghanistan. The criminals walked right in the door.
It is worse than that. We bought them the gun, trained them to use it, went out with them a few times to make sure they knew how to use it against the thieves. And then said, "hey, I have my own family to take care of...you appear good to go." We opened the door and began to move our bags out front to leave and the "friend" walked out behind us, gave the gun we bought him to the thieves, and said to us "can I come live with you now?" Or, on the director's cut, to the thieves, "Can I be on your team now?"
I wonder how many people in that plane photo were Afghan soldiers that were supposed to be protecting the civilians. I don't get soldiers climbing out of perfectly good tanks and leaving them for the Taliban. What's strange about that is I would think if I were scared to death and wanted to flee, I'd drive the tank to the airport.
Would you ransom the tank to be able to go in (relative) peace back to your home and family? We seem to have expected Afghan soldiers to keep up the fight long enough for us to leave in an orderly fashion. Why would they do that if an early surrender could be the difference between life and death?
Live under the Taliban? Vs. death to keep what liberties you and your family enjoyed while Americans did your heavy lifting?
Hmmmm . . . .
This is not intended to denigrate those Afghan soldiers who died or were injured in the fight against al Quaeda or the Taliban over the last 20 years . . . but those who remain . . . I dunno . . . .
First, I agree there were no doubt many, many Afghan soldiers who fought the good fight for freedom from the Taliban.
But once we announced a deadline for our withdrawal, every rational Afghan had to start assessing their pretty dismal choices. My guess is the soldiers looked around to their comrades and concluded that continuing in the army was likely not a long-term option. I would also guess, however, there will be other ongoing resistance movements within the country.
It's possible our best hope is that Afghanistan returns to the status quo (prior to 9/11) of ongoing tribal warfare/peace/warfare/peace and on an on. Our presence provided an easy target for unification of various tribes. Perhaps now that we were gone the Taliban's "governance" will come under fire from multiple tribes within Afghanistan.
A boy can dream
That sort of goes to the article I posted that it has long been an Afghan custom to surrender quickly to avoid bloodshed. It seems we never completely grasped that.
Trying to keep themselves and their daughters, wives and sisters from being shot in the street. Don't be naive.
These are savages that China and Russia have decided to recognize as a legitimate government.
Let that sink in.
Russia and China our hedging their bets. China can't be pleased privately as they border Afghanistan. They don't want this kind of instability on their doorstep. Russia might see instability in Central Asia. Not good. They've been hedging their bets for some time. They enjoy the US loss, but it's hardly in their interest. The real issue here is Pakistan, the world's leading exporter of terror. Nuclear armed mind you, with little command and control over their weapons. Low level commanders with access to nukes. Scary stuff. And brainwashed to boot. The mistake was going into Iraq instead of securing the nukes in Pakistan. Talib fighters are routinely found with Paki id cards.
They had 20 years to get their act together in some way, shape or form. Let's be real, the only sympathy being projected on a grand scale are for those who helped the US. This plan was announced under a prior administration and extended three months beyond its deadline. People acting like this is some last minute escape, pulling the rug out from underneath a populace haven't been paying attention.
Maybe they should've focused on building a viable government and military to defend their country. Disputes like this should be regional in nature when it's extended beyond the initial cause. We had reason to go in. We had reason to stay and help. We had little reason to occupy beyond that.
Personally I have a lot of sympathy for the people left behind...particularly the women. Few dispute the reasons for the pull out but this should have been well underway earlier with assurances in place that innocent people could get out and were getting out before the troops left. A last second cluster **** is the result.
The date was announced last March. It was extended by 3.5 months.
It's not like the withdrawal agreement was announced out of the blue either. We're looking at 18+ months from inception to move out day. Not to mention, all the political ramblings in general of getting out.
Trump campaigned on it in 2016 and continued on early into his presidency, despite adding 4,000 troops to advise and train.
He blasted Obama while Obama was President. Maybe he was just calling out a black man who made fun of him, but he pretty much telegraphed his intention during his campaign.
Nixon did much the same thing.
He announced the approximate date of the US departure from Vietnam, (coincidentally just a few months before the date for his reelection), and the North Vietnam army could adjust its budgeting and recruiting accordingly, timed to the US absence. Refugees pushed US helicopters off the decks of US carriers to make room for more helicopters bringing more refugees to safety,
Lesson not learned: don't tell them the real date you are leaving.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Another issue is the Americans who are still in Afghanistan. Are they going to be able to leave peacefully? If not then you could say the administration has hung them out to dry.
Lots of words here but none address my point. There is no debate about when it was announced or by whom. There is no debate that it was the right thing to do. So stop.
Last time...the issue is the execution that has gone so very poorly. The troops should have remained in place until the people that needed to get out...got out. Now the taliban has a perimeter around the airport and is holding back the people they want to punish.
These are souless godless savages and we let them have their way on the exit strategy.
If you are an American; you have a shot at getting out. If you are an Afghan who helped the US in any way...you are ****ed. The stories that make their way out of there over the next weeks and months will be horrific.
But we did buy him a gun. Your hypothetical is meaningless. Why don't you try engaging with reality for a change?
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