Arm the women

[toastedbread]

The handwringer over rescuing the thousands who helped American soldiers is merely a blimp compared to the millions of victims facing the Taliban's version of sharia. It's amusing in a hysterical manner the degree to which this is ignored. How can one possibly be an advocate for women's rights in this country or anywhere around the world, while one ignores the atrocity these women face? It's an incomprehensible position. This is not only a disaster for whatever democratic norms we still pretend to project globally, but it's primarily a disaster for women. Biden should stop pretending he or the United States cares one iota about the farce we call human rights. (The Taliban are squirming at the thought of those naughty sanctions!) Just admit it's solely self-American interest and real politik.

The Taliban’s Return Is Catastrophic for Women

As a photojournalist covering Afghanistan for two decades, I’ve seen how hard the country’s women have fought for their freedom, and how much they have gained. Now they stand to lose everything.

www.theatlantic.com

Millions of women's dreams dashed. (perhaps more-so the urbanites of Kabul, but still women of all economic strata will lose everything)

That is worth a hell of a lot in my book, perhaps blood. A terrible example and precedent. Giving someone a taste of freedom and now shoving them back in the closet. Pure torture. Is this Dante's inferno?

In a week the media will be done with Afghanistan, but in all likelihood, these women will suffer for the rest of their lives. At least give them a gun and a chance. Surely, they would perform better than the corrupt rot we observed for 20 years.

 

[bub-rub]

The handwringer over rescuing the thousands who helped American soldiers is merely a blimp compared to the millions of victims facing the Taliban's version of sharia. It's amusing in a hysterical manner the degree to which this is ignored. How can one possibly be an advocate for women's rights in this country or anywhere around the world, while one ignores the atrocity these women face? It's an incomprehensible position. This is not only a disaster for whatever democratic norms we still pretend to project globally, but it's primarily a disaster for women. Biden should stop pretending he or the United States cares one iota about the farce we call human rights. (The Taliban are squirming at the thought of those naughty sanctions!) Just admit it's solely self-American interest and real politik.

The Taliban’s Return Is Catastrophic for Women

As a photojournalist covering Afghanistan for two decades, I’ve seen how hard the country’s women have fought for their freedom, and how much they have gained. Now they stand to lose everything.

www.theatlantic.com

Millions of women's dreams dashed. (perhaps more-so the urbanites of Kabul, but still women of all economic strata will lose everything)

That is worth a hell of a lot in my book, perhaps blood. A terrible example and precedent. Giving someone a taste of freedom and now shoving them back in the closet. Pure torture. Is this Dante's inferno?

In a week the media will be done with Afghanistan, but in all likelihood, these women will suffer for the rest of their lives. At least give them a gun and a chance. Surely, they would perform better than the corrupt rot we observed for 20 years.

you mean the veil is down and it turns out the US has been in it for itself all along? There may be a billion + women in this world living under insane conditions. Should we send US soldiers out to save each of them?
The US has been an empire pretending to be a savior for 70 years. That myth had to die and this is what it looks like. Ugly but predictable.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The handwringer over rescuing the thousands who helped American soldiers is merely a blimp compared to the millions of victims facing the Taliban's version of sharia. It's amusing in a hysterical manner the degree to which this is ignored. How can one possibly be an advocate for women's rights in this country or anywhere around the world, while one ignores the atrocity these women face? It's an incomprehensible position. This is not only a disaster for whatever democratic norms we still pretend to project globally, but it's primarily a disaster for women. Biden should stop pretending he or the United States cares one iota about the farce we call human rights. (The Taliban are squirming at the thought of those naughty sanctions!) Just admit it's solely self-American interest and real politik.

The Taliban’s Return Is Catastrophic for Women

As a photojournalist covering Afghanistan for two decades, I’ve seen how hard the country’s women have fought for their freedom, and how much they have gained. Now they stand to lose everything.

www.theatlantic.com

Millions of women's dreams dashed. (perhaps more-so the urbanites of Kabul, but still women of all economic strata will lose everything)

That is worth a hell of a lot in my book, perhaps blood. A terrible example and precedent. Giving someone a taste of freedom and now shoving them back in the closet. Pure torture. Is this Dante's inferno?

In a week the media will be done with Afghanistan, but in all likelihood, these women will suffer for the rest of their lives. At least give them a gun and a chance. Surely, they would perform better than the corrupt rot we observed for 20 years.

It's not that it's being ignored. In fact, it's all over the damn news. The problem is, we've collectively decided as a nation to get the hell out of there. We have the capability of rescuing some, if not most, of the Afghans who helped us. We have a moral obligation to make the attempt. We don't have the capability of protecting the millions of Afghan citizens who will remain in Afghanistan.

You could argue we have a moral obligation to try, but we've already decided that's not in the cards, so it's kind of a moot point.

 

[toastedbread]

you mean the veil is down and it turns out the US has been in it for itself all along? There may be a billion + women in this world living under insane conditions. Should we send US soldiers out to save each of them?
The US has been an empire pretending to be a savior for 70 years. That myth had to die and this is what it looks like. Ugly but predictable.

You cannot be the world's policeman, but this is different. We have given them a taste of relative freedom and are now ruthlessly taking it away. That is far worse than never having tasted relative freedom. It's akin to granted freedom to an enslaved person and then placing them back in slavery. It's inhumane and against every fiber of what this country should stand for.

I'm sickened by the behavior of our leaders across the spectrum. Apparently everything is politics.

 

[toastedbread]

It's not that it's being ignored. In fact, it's all over the damn news. The problem is, we've collectively decided as a nation to get the hell out of there. We have the capability of rescuing some, if not most, of the Afghans who helped us. We have a moral obligation to make the attempt. We don't have the capability of protecting the millions of Afghan citizens who will remain in Afghanistan.

You could argue we have a moral obligation to try, but we've already decided that's not in the cards, so it's kind of a moot point.

The comparisons to Vietnam are wrong. It's equivalent to comparing civilized opponents with African hippos. Mind you, what kind of imbecile negotiates with the Taliban in good faith, who have not kept to a single line of a single agreement. To leave people to just suffer to their fate is...

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The comparisons to Vietnam are wrong. It's equivalent to comparing civilized opponents with African hippos. Mind you, what kind of imbecile negotiates with the Taliban in good faith, who have not kept to a single line of a single agreement. To leave people to just suffer to their fate is...

You want to send a large occupation force back in to stay there forever? That's what it will take. If you want to do that, fine. But most Americans don't want that.

 

[toastedbread]

The problem is, we've collectively decided as a nation to get the hell out of there.

For the record Goat, the average person probably did not even know we are in Afghanistan. The heart of the matter is that voters do not care about foreign policy.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

you mean the veil is down and it turns out the US has been in it for itself all along? There may be a billion + women in this world living under insane conditions. Should we send US soldiers out to save each of them?
The US has been an empire pretending to be a savior for 70 years. That myth had to die and this is what it looks like. Ugly but predictable.

I understand your entire post and don't disagree. My question is you contend we have been fighting for our own self interest for 20 years. What self interest.? Please enlighten me.

 

[toastedbread]

You want to send a large occupation force back in to stay there forever? That's what it will take. If you want to do that, fine. But most Americans don't want that.

It's too late at this point. Are you demanding that troops return home from Germany and Korea? Troops that number in the 10s of thousands. We have a couple thousand in Spain. For a relatively small number of troops, we were keeping some kind of status quo that was gradually sliding toward the Taliban. I strongly believe the first death knell was Trump's direct negotiations with the Taliban, though the situation had been deteriorating for years. But still, a worsening status quo is preferable to the here and now. And I'm strictly speaking from a humanitarian and US pr perspective, while ignoring the knock-on effects, such as the potential for the collapse of Central Asia. Uzbekistan is in the immediate crosshairs. I haven't heard the pundits mention this once; the IMU is a leading player within the Taliban. People are deluded if they are to believe the Taliban stop in Afghanistan. Just as all of their prognosis have served us so well.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

You cannot be the world's policeman, but this is different. We have given them a taste of relative freedom and are now ruthlessly taking it away. That is far worse than never having tasted relative freedom. It's akin to granted freedom to an enslaved person and then placing them back in slavery. It's inhumane and against every fiber of what this country should stand for.

I'm sickened by the behavior of our leaders across the spectrum. Apparently everything is politics.

I don't think it's fair to say we are "taking away" their freedom. The Taliban is.

We tried--we spent a trillion or two dollars, we lost U.S. lives, we tried to train them to defend themselves--for two decades. It didn't work, for whatever reason. But I don't think that means we now have an obligation to defend them for all time.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

It's too late at this point. Are you demanding that troops return home from Germany and Korea? Troops that number in the 10s of thousands. We have a couple thousand in Spain. For a relatively small number of troops, we were keeping some kind of status quo that was gradually sliding toward the Taliban. I strongly believe the first death knell was Trump's direct negotiations with the Taliban, though the situation had been deteriorating for years. But still, a worsening status quo is preferable to the here and now. And I'm strictly speaking from a humanitarian and US pr perspective, while ignoring the knock-on effects, such as the potential for the collapse of Central Asia. Uzbekistan is in the immediate crosshairs. I haven't heard the pundits mention this once; the IMU is a leading player within the Taliban. People are deluded if they are to believe the Taliban stop in Afghanistan. Just as all of their prognosis have served us so well.

Germany and Korea aren't good comparisons to Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, we've lost 2,300 American lives in the last 20 years due to hostile KIAs. The grand total from Germany and Korea combined?

 

[toastedbread]

Germany and Korea aren't good comparisons to Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, we've lost 2,300 American lives in the last 20 years due to hostile KIAs. The grand total from Germany and Korea combined?

~40 in the last 2.5 years. Is no single American death acceptable to you in exchange for millions of women having the ability to attend school? Not meaning to be grisly.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It's too late at this point. Are you demanding that troops return home from Germany and Korea? Troops that number in the 10s of thousands. We have a couple thousand in Spain. For a relatively small number of troops, we were keeping some kind of status quo that was gradually sliding toward the Taliban. I strongly believe the first death knell was Trump's direct negotiations with the Taliban, though the situation had been deteriorating for years. But still, a worsening status quo is preferable to the here and now. And I'm strictly speaking from a humanitarian and US pr perspective, while ignoring the knock-on effects, such as the potential for the collapse of Central Asia. Uzbekistan is in the immediate crosshairs. I haven't heard the pundits mention this once; the IMU is a leading player within the Taliban. People are deluded if they are to believe the Taliban stop in Afghanistan. Just as all of their prognosis have served us so well.

I wasn't demanding our troops return home from anywhere. I was simply pointing out that we've collectively decided as a nation that it's time to get the hell out of Afghanistan.

 

[toastedbread]

I wasn't demanding our troops return home from anywhere. I was simply pointing out that we've collectively decided as a nation that it's time to get the hell out of Afghanistan.

This is what the politicians have decided. The people have followed their lead. E.g. Trump and Biden. A voter who votes because of foreign policy is a unicorn. Not a single person voted for or against Trump in 2020 because of Afghanistan.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

You want to send a large occupation force back in to stay there forever? That's what it will take. If you want to do that, fine. But most Americans don't want that.

I remember a post I made many years ago when the votes to go to war were like everybody yes except for Ron Paul. I think it was in response to Rockfish but 20 years is along time and I may be mistaken. I pointed out that the America people were not told the truth in any discussion from the congress or the president that we were taking on a 100 year commitment. Goat is right when he says that we would have to stay for a long time. I was still enlisted at the time and was friends with a MSG that hung out at the bar outside Ft Knox and played trivia online. He was one of a handful of guys that stay enlisted, never have a family, obtain a Masters in History and hook up with a Colonel and become their can do person. Guys like this and the Colonels that take then with them on many assignments are the best the Army has. We were talking one evening and he told me he had orders to standup the Afghan Army. What that really means is his boss just got the hardest job facing the Army in 02. I asked him how long it would take and he replied that most couldn't read. I said we are going to become the British Army, needing officers that can run a country. He agreed. Never saw him again after beers at "Three Putt Wilies" in early 02. Hope he made it back.

 

[bub-rub]

I understand your entire post and don't disagree. My question is you contend we have been fighting for our own self interest for 20 years. What self interest.? Please enlighten me.

9/11 coupled w a weak Russia put us knee deep into the ME, playing regional cop. Resurgent Russia and rising China means we’re back to continental-scale games. If/ when Russia and China cycle down, we’ll change course…again. Our interest is to balance the big players until they’re in check and then we balance the little guys until a big players rises up.
On a human level, I’m sickened. But I’m also a realist and geopolitics is a zero-sum game. That we’re always doing this shit an ocean away is the biggest part of our geographic blessing. So great is our position, we’ll probably play this game for several more centuries. New Rome. 1000 year Reich. Whatever. Love it, hate it, it’s what we are.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

~40 in the last 2.5 years. Is no single American death acceptable to you in exchange for millions of women having the ability to attend school? Not meaning to be grisly.

no. If you want the world police, send in the UN (which we fund a large amount of, but at least the world shares in its funding).

sure I’m terrible at empathy and I do feel bad for the people of that country. But shitholes are shitholes for a reason and it’s obnoxious and ignorant to think we can bring real change. Hell, we can’t even bring change to St Louis or Chicago.

 

[toastedbread]

no. If you want the world police, send in the UN (which we fund a large amount of, but at least the world shares in its funding).

sure I’m terrible at empathy and I do feel bad for the people of that country. But shitholes are shitholes for a reason and it’s obnoxious and ignorant to think we can bring real change. Hell, we can’t even bring change to St Louis or Chicago.

But that's just wrong. We did bring real change. To a region that badly needs change.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

But that's just wrong. We did bring real change. To a region that badly needs change.

no we didn’t. We brought US firepower and resources. The government was never empowered to govern, the military was a joke, corruption ran amok and the people weren’t willing to stand on their own.

you were looking at a facade, even with the ridiculous number of suicide bombings and other terrorism frequently inhabiting the country.

 

[toastedbread]

no we didn’t. We brought US firepower and resources. The government was never empowered to govern, the military was a joke, corruption ran amok and the people weren’t willing to stand on their own.

you were looking at a facade, even with the ridiculous number of suicide bombings and other terrorism frequently inhabiting the country.

Maybe it's a facade to you. I know Afghans, you know, people with two arms and two legs. Girls who had real opportunities only because the Taliban was overthrown. My wife volunteers for a charity that works in Afghanistan providing food and education for children. Widows are supported. Families who burn trash to stay warm. These are real people. You tell them the improvement wasn't real.

 

[Rockport Zebra]

9/11 coupled w a weak Russia put us knee deep into the ME, playing regional cop. Resurgent Russia and rising China means we’re back to continental-scale games. If/ when Russia and China cycle down, we’ll change course…again. Our interest is to balance the big players until they’re in check and then we balance the little guys until a big players rises up.
On a human level, I’m sickened. But I’m also a realist and geopolitics is a zero-sum game. That we’re always doing this shit an ocean away is the biggest part of our geographic blessing. So great is our position, we’ll probably play this game for several more centuries. New Rome. 1000 year Reich. Whatever. Love it, hate it, it’s

You lost me with the zero sum game and us playing everyone against everyone. I don't believe that about our country's intentions.

 

[bub-rub]

You lost me with the zero sum game and us playing everyone against everyone. I don't believe that about our country's intentions.

okay, then what is our intention when we topple, prop up, and leave?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Maybe it's a facade to you. I know Afghans, you know, people with two arms and two legs. Girls who had real opportunities only because the Taliban was overthrown. My wife volunteers for a charity that works in Afghanistan providing food and education for children. Widows are supported. Families who burn trash to stay warm. These are real people. You tell them the improvement wasn't real.

your personal connections are clouding your objectivity

 

[larsIU]

~40 in the last 2.5 years. Is no single American death acceptable to you in exchange for millions of women having the ability to attend school? Not meaning to be grisly.

It can’t mean more to us than it does to everyday afghans. Maybe at the beginning but not 20 years down the road.

So no. At this point further loss of American blood and treasure is not worth it.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Maybe it's a facade to you. I know Afghans, you know, people with two arms and two legs. Girls who had real opportunities only because the Taliban was overthrown. My wife volunteers for a charity that works in Afghanistan providing food and education for children. Widows are supported. Families who burn trash to stay warm. These are real people. You tell them the improvement wasn't real.

If the improvement was real, why didn't their army put up a fight? I assume every Afghan male soldier is related to a woman, and they threw their weapons down when confronted. If we had made progress it seems more people would have fought.

 

[Bloom.]

You cannot be the world's policeman, but this is different. We have given them a taste of relative freedom and are now ruthlessly taking it away. That is far worse than never having tasted relative freedom. It's akin to granted freedom to an enslaved person and then placing them back in slavery. It's inhumane and against every fiber of what this country should stand for.

I'm sickened by the behavior of our leaders across the spectrum. Apparently everything is politics.

20 years is more than a taste.

Where are the men in their lives? Their fathers. Their husbands. Their brothers.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

If the improvement was real, why didn't their army put up a fight? I assume every Afghan male soldier is related to a woman, and they threw their weapons down when confronted. If we had made progress it seems more people would have fought.

If we had done it like toasted suggested from the get go (trained and armed women), perhaps the army might have been more impactful. But, realistically, even the Afghan soldiers that were fighting for a new regime would find it to be quite a stretch to allow women to have that kind of power. Things like women's rights and gender equality evolve over many, many decades (see pay gap).

 

[twenty02]

It's too late at this point. Are you demanding that troops return home from Germany and Korea? Troops that number in the 10s of thousands. We have a couple thousand in Spain. For a relatively small number of troops, we were keeping some kind of status quo that was gradually sliding toward the Taliban. I strongly believe the first death knell was Trump's direct negotiations with the Taliban, though the situation had been deteriorating for years. But still, a worsening status quo is preferable to the here and now. And I'm strictly speaking from a humanitarian and US pr perspective, while ignoring the knock-on effects, such as the potential for the collapse of Central Asia. Uzbekistan is in the immediate crosshairs. I haven't heard the pundits mention this once; the IMU is a leading player within the Taliban. People are deluded if they are to believe the Taliban stop in Afghanistan. Just as all of their prognosis have served us so well.

Germany and Korea aren't comparable examples. There were no ongoing hostilities there after the end of those wars. Afghanistan was still a war zone, and we were still actively engaged in military ops, supporting Afghan Army in battles with the Taliban.

We cut a deal in Feb 2020 with the Taliban. They got what they wanted.... the US gone. And we got them to halt any attacks upon US forces. But that would have never held if we were committing to keep forces there on a permanent basis.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

If we had done it like toasted suggested from the get go (trained and armed women), perhaps the army might have been more impactful. But, realistically, even the Afghan soldiers that were fighting for a new regime would find it to be quite a stretch to allow women to have that kind of power. Things like women's rights and gender equality evolve over many, many decades (see pay gap).

From what I've read, about 1.3% of the Afghan military was female. So they were allowed to fight. I don't know if the Afghan government hard capped it at such a low number, or if women refused to join.

But like you say, it takes decades for these things to change. Clearly the husbands, brothers, fathers didn't care. Nor do we know how many women wanted a return to the old ways. It is unfathomable to us, but it seems likely there were women who wanted a return to their traditional role.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

The handwringer over rescuing the thousands who helped American soldiers is merely a blimp compared to the millions of victims facing the Taliban's version of sharia. It's amusing in a hysterical manner the degree to which this is ignored. How can one possibly be an advocate for women's rights in this country or anywhere around the world, while one ignores the atrocity these women face? It's an incomprehensible position. This is not only a disaster for whatever democratic norms we still pretend to project globally, but it's primarily a disaster for women. Biden should stop pretending he or the United States cares one iota about the farce we call human rights. (The Taliban are squirming at the thought of those naughty sanctions!) Just admit it's solely self-American interest and real politik.

The Taliban’s Return Is Catastrophic for Women

As a photojournalist covering Afghanistan for two decades, I’ve seen how hard the country’s women have fought for their freedom, and how much they have gained. Now they stand to lose everything.

www.theatlantic.com

Millions of women's dreams dashed. (perhaps more-so the urbanites of Kabul, but still women of all economic strata will lose everything)

That is worth a hell of a lot in my book, perhaps blood. A terrible example and precedent. Giving someone a taste of freedom and now shoving them back in the closet. Pure torture. Is this Dante's inferno?

In a week the media will be done with Afghanistan, but in all likelihood, these women will suffer for the rest of their lives. At least give them a gun and a chance. Surely, they would perform better than the corrupt rot we observed for 20 years.

In 1982, I was prepping to go back to school - law school. So I took some more classes just to get back in shape. I took a series of history/poly sci courses that brought diplomats to our school/town. One was a Russian embassy rep. First question came not from press, but from our college’s largest financial benefactor:

“When are you rascals gonna get out of Afghanistan?”

 

[toastedbread]

Germany and Korea aren't comparable examples. There were no ongoing hostilities there after the end of those wars. Afghanistan was still a war zone, and we were still actively engaged in military ops, supporting Afghan Army in battles with the Taliban.

We cut a deal in Feb 2020 with the Taliban. They got what they wanted.... the US gone. And we got them to halt any attacks upon US forces. But that would have never held if we were committing to keep forces there on a permanent basis.

Have a look at the casualty count from 2014 onward. It's in the double digits and recently low double digits. My understanding is that we have not been on the front lines fighting for quite some time.

 

[Spartans9312]

If the improvement was real, why didn't their army put up a fight? I assume every Afghan male soldier is related to a woman, and they threw their weapons down when confronted. If we had made progress it seems more people would have fought.

1) The army has been poorly supported (lack of pay, food etc) for years. After the deal last year, the Taliban had leverage to say this was inevitable once Americans left and went around trying to buy commanders with assurances.

2) They were outnumbered by Taliban but they could still win because of air support. Biden basically pulled their air support and sudden collapse and American abandonment became demoralizing. Suddenly deal with Taliban seemed like their best chance of survival.

The idea that Afghans weren't willing to fight is bogus. They have successfully been doing most of the fighting since 2014. But once we announced we are out of there and pulled the only advantage they had over the Taliban, it became a fight they couldn't win and they went home.

 

[toastedbread]

From what I've read, about 1.3% of the Afghan military was female. So they were allowed to fight. I don't know if the Afghan government hard capped it at such a low number, or if women refused to join.

But like you say, it takes decades for these things to change. Clearly the husbands, brothers, fathers didn't care. Nor do we know how many women wanted a return to the old ways. It is unfathomable to us, but it seems likely there were women who wanted a return to their traditional role.

I think you overestimate the degree of agency that some women have in Afg with respect to wanting a return to their traditional role. You think those women weren't engaged in their traditional roles now? I'm confused.

There is clearly a rural/urban divide. Ethnic as well. Pashtuns are more conservative/tribal. Even after the fall they were still enforcing rigid customs.

 

[toastedbread]

1) The army has been poorly supported (lack of pay, food etc) for years. After the deal last year, the Taliban had leverage to say this was inevitable once Americans left and went around trying to buy commanders with assurances.

2) They were outnumbered by Taliban but they could still win because of air support. Biden basically pulled their air support and sudden collapse and American abandonment became demoralizing. Suddenly deal with Taliban seemed like their best chance of survival.

The idea that Afghans weren't willing to fight is bogus. They have successfully been doing most of the fighting since 2014. But once we announced we are out of there and pulled the only advantage they had over the Taliban, it became a fight they couldn't win and they went home.

Exactly. And who the hell is going to fight if they have no food or money on the table? For what and for whom? A corrupt govt that steals your last cent? Corrupt rot from top to bottom. And then the other elephant in the room is the support of Pakistan. Not a whimper about that. Remove Pakistan from the equation and the Taliban is non existent.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

1) The army has been poorly supported (lack of pay, food etc) for years. After the deal last year, the Taliban had leverage to say this was inevitable once Americans left and went around trying to buy commanders with assurances.

2) They were outnumbered by Taliban but they could still win because of air support. Biden basically pulled their air support and sudden collapse and American abandonment became demoralizing. Suddenly deal with Taliban seemed like their best chance of survival.

The idea that Afghans weren't willing to fight is bogus. They have successfully been doing most of the fighting since 2014. But once we announced we are out of there and pulled the only advantage they had over the Taliban, it became a fight they couldn't win and they went home.

So the Afghanistan Army was willing to fight as long as American jets were really doing the fighting?

We never bothered to understand that in Afghanistan kinship and tribal alliances mean far more than political divide. Back when England was continually sending knights to France and winning, it was because the French knights had a habit of surrendering whenever the danger seemed real and ransoming themselves back. That is an old Afghanistan custom and is why this army failed. Read the story below. Tribes could send men to both sides, and get money from Americans to be on the American side. But they really weren't on the American side, they were always on the side of their tribe.

Opinion | Why Afghan Forces So Quickly Laid Down Their Arms

Opposing Afghan factions have long negotiated arrangements to stop fighting — something the U.S. either failed to understand or chose to ignore.

www.politico.com

When Trump announced the withdrawal, there were those in the Pentagon who said the number left behind could not adequately defend itself. We either had to go back in with more men or leave. Because once we stayed, the Taliban would begin attacking our troops again. I will guarantee you that if Biden had said we needed to add 5000 troops to Afghanistan on a permanent basis, we would be having the same critical people angry that Biden had screwed up Trump's peace.

 

[toastedbread]

We never bothered to understand that in Afghanistan kinship and tribal alliances mean far more than political divide. Back when England was continually sending knights to France and winning, it was because the French knights had a habit of surrendering whenever the danger seemed real and ransoming themselves back. That is an old Afghanistan custom and is why this army failed. Read the story below. Tribes could send men to both sides, and get money from Americans to be on the American side. But they really weren't on the American side, they were always on the side of their tribe.

Agreed, but this is a giant oversimplification. E.g. you will never find a Hazara fighting with the Taliban. It is likely only Pashtuns would be fighting on both sides. The fact that non-Pashtun areas fell so quickly speaks to the little support those areas were receiving from the Afghan govt. And there was also a giant schism about the Afghan govt in that non-Pashtuns felt Ghani only represented Pashtuns interests.

I had a coworker who served in Afghanistan. I once asked him what the food was like. He said he had never had Afghan food. His favorite "local" dish was something provided by the UAE. I thought that spoke volumes about how poorly we understand the local culture. I know Mattis has written about understanding the culture. Historically, the Brits have done a much better job of this. If you don't know the food, the culture, and the smell of the local people's shit in the place you are fighting a guerrilla war, you aren't going to make a dent.

 

[toastedbread]

So the Afghanistan Army was willing to fight as long as American jets were really doing the fighting?

Have you seen what the enemy looks like? Brainwashed baboons from the 3rd century. Was it jomini who wrote about the spirit to fight? One group is willing to commit suicide. That's a tough opponent.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Agreed, but this is a giant oversimplification. E.g. you will never find a Hazara fighting with the Taliban. It is likely only Pashtuns would be fighting on both sides. The fact that non-Pashtun areas fell so quickly speaks to the little support those areas were receiving from the Afghan govt. And there was also a giant schism about the Afghan govt in that non-Pashtuns felt Ghani only represented Pashtuns interests.

I had a coworker who served in Afghanistan. I once asked him what the food was like. He said he had never had Afghan food. His favorite "local" dish was something provided by the UAE. I thought that spoke volumes about how poorly we understand the local culture. I know Mattis has written about understanding the culture. Historically, the Brits have done a much better job of this. If you don't know the food, the culture, and the smell of the local people's shit in the place you are fighting a guerrilla war, you aren't going to make a dent.

I have seen some comments about what all we did wrong, here is one:

— Retired Lt. Gen. DANIEL BOLGER, who commanded troops in Afghanistan: “There's more than enough blame to go around. All four presidential administrations (Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden) and the Congresses of 2001-2021 own a share. Generals and admirals — and I include myself — senior diplomats, and top intelligence leaders got it wrong over and over from start to finish. … Finally, the American people got it wrong. Our government, elected and appointed, works for us. We wanted a response to 9/11. We got that. Then we lost interest. The Taliban did not.”​

​

There’s a reason for this consensus: A tacit acknowledgment that officials and national security professionals need a hard look in the mirror.​

​

That includes presidents who launched and prolonged an ill-fated war; the generals who assured us success was always six months away; the civilians who believed diplomacy and development would transform Afghan society; the intelligence analysts who missed the Taliban’s true strength; the lawmakers who abdicated their oversight responsibility; the expert class who cheered on further bloodshed; the activists who minimized the consequences of withdrawal; and we in the media for keeping Afghanistan off the front page and prioritizing trivia over troops fighting and dying in battle zones.​

​

Ghani was a huge problem. We too often believed what he and others inside the government told us. They told us they had the will of the people. We believed it. We also failed to understand how backing leadership that was openly corrupt would not work, the people knew he and others were ripping them off.

We All Lost Afghanistan

Two decades of mistakes, misjudgments, and collective failure

www.foreignaffairs.com

Yet even with these successes, we oversold the gains. And we did less than we could have about corruption, knowingly working with senior government and military figures that ordinary Afghans saw as responsible for graft and political and human rights abuses. Our counternarcotics program was an abject failure: poppy production continued to increase for most of the past decade, with the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime estimating a 37 percent increase in acres under cultivation in 2020. The hope that Afghanistan’s economic growth would eventually allow the government to cover its own expenditures was advanced year after year at donors’ conferences, even though that clearly would not be the case for the foreseeable future. Grandiose projects languished: it took 15 years to install a new turbine on Kajaki Dam, a symbol of American largess toward Afghanistan in the 1950s.​

​

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

t's in the double digits and recently low double digits.

Which includes a cease-fire.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Have you seen what the enemy looks like? Brainwashed baboons from the 3rd century. Was it jomini who wrote about the spirit to fight? One group is willing to commit suicide. That's a tough opponent.

I saw a picture of a group of Taliban riding on a captured tank. The Taliban had no tanks until they captured them because we would have blown them up from the air. I don't care how tough they look, inside a tank they would have had to lose much of their mystic. Yet Afghan soldiers jumped out of the tank and left them to the Taliban.