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Another School Shooting

Lucy01

Lucy01

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Sep 16, 2014
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Santa Fe Texas, 9 dead by a 17 year old shooter. I bet you he doesn’t belong to the NRA;)
 
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Tragic situation for all involved. These past few decades it seems some kids have lost the ability to cope, and are lashing out in ways that were once unimaginable. I won't even begin to posit the reason(s) why, though I will say this...it wasn't an AR-15 or reasonable facsimile that was used this time. Hell, according to the most recent story kid used a 38 special and a shotgun to kill 10 and injure 10 more.
 
All4You said:
Tragic situation for all involved. These past few decades it seems some kids have lost the ability to cope, and are lashing out in ways that were once unimaginable. I won't even begin to posit the reason(s) why, though I will say this...it wasn't an AR-15 or reasonable facsimile that was used this time. Hell, according to the most recent story kid used a 38 special and a shotgun to kill 10 and injure 10 more.
Click to expand...

The whys are very difficult for people to accept. As you said, the gun wasn’t the reason it happened (don’t want a gun argument. If one kid or 20 are killed it’s too many. Why is it happening). The issue to address is the youngsters who are turning to this.... well.... it’s certainly a moral decay. What has caused it over the years? I think our society has become more liberal than it was 50 years ago... has it not? Are we not more of a victim society today? Because it is everyone else’s fault for my troubles I’m going to lash out at them ....

This is a problem everyone is being affected by. Removing guns doesn’t make the reasons it is happening go away.

Civil discussion is difficult. Being able to look at yourself is more than difficult....
 
It’s time to start arresting people that are close to the shooters, They have observed the shooters and have said nothing, It’s time to make examples of them.
 
Hoosier_Hack said:
So he was a teenager rejecting social norms?
Click to expand...
I almost liked your post, but stopped when it dawned on me that there is "teenager rejecting social norms" and then there's "teenager killing 10 people in a school". Those are not the same, and the Nazi regalia is a pretty good indicator of someone who isn't necessarily the former, and a very real potential for the latter.
 
Sope Creek said:
I almost liked your post, but stopped when it dawned on me that there is "teenager rejecting social norms" and then there's "teenager killing 10 people in a school". Those are not the same, and the Nazi regalia is a pretty good indicator of someone who isn't necessarily the former, and a very real potential for the latter.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t being facetious... I was referring to how many kids dress in in other than social norm clothing in school. I will say dressing as Nazis was not something I saw while in school, but the punk, combat boots, makeup, crap was very prevalent in my time....I was going towards how do we determine who is a normal kid rebelling and who has a real problem.

We had a few kids that were “destine” for jail time. I mean if I had money to bet when I was 18 and graduating I could have bet on a few kids spending time in jail before they were 30. One particular kid that no one would have guessed was a brainiac that went to the local private college. Real skinny, kinda teased a bit in school. He took the night duty person in the dorm hostage with a knife during finals week. Did 10 years. These are the guys I think we need to figure out and identify.
 
Hoosier_Hack said:
I wasn’t being facetious... I was referring to how many kids dress in in other than social norm clothing in school. I will say dressing as Nazis was not something I saw while in school, but the punk, combat boots, makeup, crap was very prevalent in my time....I was going towards how do we determine who is a normal kid rebelling and who has a real problem.

We had a few kids that were “destine” for jail time. I mean if I had money to bet when I was 18 and graduating I could have bet on a few kids spending time in jail before they were 30. One particular kid that no one would have guessed was a brainiac that went to the local private college. Real skinny, kinda teased a bit in school. He took the night duty person in the dorm hostage with a knife during finals week. Did 10 years. These are the guys I think we need to figure out and identify.
Click to expand...

Where are his parents? Even today how many parents would allow a kid to identify with this kind of hate? There just isn’t enough discipline and moral direction today.
 
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Bruce1 said:
Where are his parents? Even today how many parents would allow a kid to identify with this kind of hate? There just isn’t enough discipline and moral direction today.
Click to expand...
I know a young single mom that had the police called on her by the school for disciplining her child. Lots have changed in raising kids today in the name of “progress” that should really be looked at....
 
Hoosier_Hack said:
I wasn’t being facetious... I was referring to how many kids dress in in other than social norm clothing in school. I will say dressing as Nazis was not something I saw while in school, but the punk, combat boots, makeup, crap was very prevalent in my time....I was going towards how do we determine who is a normal kid rebelling and who has a real problem.

We had a few kids that were “destine” for jail time. I mean if I had money to bet when I was 18 and graduating I could have bet on a few kids spending time in jail before they were 30. One particular kid that no one would have guessed was a brainiac that went to the local private college. Real skinny, kinda teased a bit in school. He took the night duty person in the dorm hostage with a knife during finals week. Did 10 years. These are the guys I think we need to figure out and identify.
Click to expand...

My point is that the Nazi regalia IS what distinguishes this kid from others who do the punk, combat boots, makeup and other crap . . . some stuff identifies outliers as part of an outlier group, like punk or Goth, but Nazi regalia is one step beyond and into an outlier in that constitutes a threat. It's not just teenage rebellion . . . .
 
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Bruce1 said:
Where are his parents? Even today how many parents would allow a kid to identify with this kind of hate? There just isn’t enough discipline and moral direction today.
Click to expand...

The first step that a kid takes in separating from his/her parents is to keep their real selves private and present to the parents what the parents have trained them to in order to satisfy the parents that the kids are who the parents want them to be. All be the luckiest parents would be the last to know when a kid is going dark.
 
Sope Creek said:
My point is that the Nazi regalia IS what distinguishes this kid from others who do the punk, combat boots, makeup and other crap . . . some stuff identifies outliers as part of an outlier group, like punk or Goth, but Nazi regalia is one step beyond and into an outlier in that constitutes a threat. It's not just teenage rebellion . . . .
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I don’t disagree with that.... at the least he should be “assessed”
 
Hoosier_Hack said:
I don’t disagree with that.... at the least he should be “assessed”
Click to expand...
The issue with "assessed" . . . by whom, and in accordance with what criteria? And under what authority?

At whose cost?

News said the kid lived in a trailer and the family kept to themselves . . . those are the hallmarks of a quiet, close family or one that is imploding without anybody knowing about it. Lots of those whose kids don't shoot other kids . . . but some whose do. How do you distinguish one from the other?
 
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Hoosier_Hack said:
The whys are very difficult for people to accept. As you said, the gun wasn’t the reason it happened (don’t want a gun argument. If one kid or 20 are killed it’s too many. Why is it happening). The issue to address is the youngsters who are turning to this.... well.... it’s certainly a moral decay. What has caused it over the years? I think our society has become more liberal than it was 50 years ago... has it not? Are we not more of a victim society today? Because it is everyone else’s fault for my troubles I’m going to lash out at them ....

This is a problem everyone is being affected by. Removing guns doesn’t make the reasons it is happening go away.

Civil discussion is difficult. Being able to look at yourself is more than difficult....
Click to expand...

I'm sure you believe what you type,but (no offense) it's a load of crap.You can't name one societal issue or example of "moral decay" that is UNIQUE to the US.Every single issue you'd try to name is just as prevalent in the rest of the industrialized world except for ONE.And the evidence does suggest that despite your self-serving claims to the contrary,removing guns DOES result in fewer gun suicides and homicides...

"2) The problem is guns, not mental illness
Supporters of gun rights look at America’s high levels of gun violence and argue that guns are not the problem. They point to other issues, from violence in video games and movies to the supposed breakdown of the traditional family.

Most recently, they’ve blamed mental health issues for mass shootings. This is the only policy issue that Trump mentioned in his first speech following the Florida shooting.

But as far as homicides go, people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence. And Michael Stone, a psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of mass shooters, wrote in a 2015 analysis that only 52 out of the 235 killers in the database, or about 22 percent, had mental illnesses. “The mentally ill should not bear the burden of being regarded as the ‘chief’ perpetrators of mass murder,” he concluded. Other research has backed this up.

More broadly, America does not have a monopoly on mental illness. That’s not to say more access to mental health care wouldn’t help; it could, for example, be effective for reducing the number of gun suicides. But mental health issues aren’t what make the US stand out in terms of gun violence.

The problem that’s unique to the US, instead, is guns — and America’s abundance of them."

And to your claim that gun control doesn't work-let's look at Australia.Not just the buyback itself,but what the stats have subsequently shown...

"In 1996, a 28-year-old man walked into a cafe in Port Arthur, Australia, ate lunch, pulled a semiautomatic rifle out of his bag, and opened fire on the crowd, killing 35 people and wounding 23 more. It was the worst mass shooting in Australia’s history.

Australian lawmakers responded with legislation that, among other provisions, banned certain types of firearms, such as automatic and semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. The Australian government confiscated 650,000 of these guns through a mandatory buyback program, in which it purchased firearms from gun owners. It established a registry of all guns owned in the country and required a permit for all new firearm purchases. (This is much further than bills typically proposed in the US, which almost never make a serious attempt to immediatelyreduce the number of guns in the country.)

Australia’s firearm homicide rate dropped by about 42 percent in the seven years after the law passed, and its firearm suicide rate fell by 57 percent, according to a review of the evidenceby Harvard researchers.

It’s difficult to know for sure how much of the drop in homicides and suicides was caused specifically by the gun buyback program and other legal changes. Australia’s gun deaths, for one, were already declining before the law passed. But researchers David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis argue that the gun buyback program very likely played a role: “First, the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts

In the meantime,why don't you give us an example of a societal issue that negatively affects US Society,but is not a factor elsewhere in countries like UK,Canada,Germany,Netherlands etc...I'm not sure I'm ready to call for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment,but people have to at least be honest enough to acknowledge the MAJOR ISSUE at play when discussing what distinguishes the US from the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to deaths from firearms...
 
What is sorely missing here are thoughts and prayers! Aren't we supposed to say that after a mass shooting?
 
cosmickid said:
I'm sure you believe what you type,but (no offense) it's a load of crap.You can't name one societal issue or example of "moral decay" that is UNIQUE to the US.Every single issue you'd try to name is just as prevalent in the rest of the industrialized world except for ONE.And the evidence does suggest that despite your self-serving claims to the contrary,removing guns DOES result in fewer gun suicides and homicides...

"2) The problem is guns, not mental illness
Supporters of gun rights look at America’s high levels of gun violence and argue that guns are not the problem. They point to other issues, from violence in video games and movies to the supposed breakdown of the traditional family.

Most recently, they’ve blamed mental health issues for mass shootings. This is the only policy issue that Trump mentioned in his first speech following the Florida shooting.

But as far as homicides go, people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence. And Michael Stone, a psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of mass shooters, wrote in a 2015 analysis that only 52 out of the 235 killers in the database, or about 22 percent, had mental illnesses. “The mentally ill should not bear the burden of being regarded as the ‘chief’ perpetrators of mass murder,” he concluded. Other research has backed this up.

More broadly, America does not have a monopoly on mental illness. That’s not to say more access to mental health care wouldn’t help; it could, for example, be effective for reducing the number of gun suicides. But mental health issues aren’t what make the US stand out in terms of gun violence.

The problem that’s unique to the US, instead, is guns — and America’s abundance of them."

And to your claim that gun control doesn't work-let's look at Australia.Not just the buyback itself,but what the stats have subsequently shown...

"In 1996, a 28-year-old man walked into a cafe in Port Arthur, Australia, ate lunch, pulled a semiautomatic rifle out of his bag, and opened fire on the crowd, killing 35 people and wounding 23 more. It was the worst mass shooting in Australia’s history.

Australian lawmakers responded with legislation that, among other provisions, banned certain types of firearms, such as automatic and semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. The Australian government confiscated 650,000 of these guns through a mandatory buyback program, in which it purchased firearms from gun owners. It established a registry of all guns owned in the country and required a permit for all new firearm purchases. (This is much further than bills typically proposed in the US, which almost never make a serious attempt to immediatelyreduce the number of guns in the country.)

Australia’s firearm homicide rate dropped by about 42 percent in the seven years after the law passed, and its firearm suicide rate fell by 57 percent, according to a review of the evidenceby Harvard researchers.

It’s difficult to know for sure how much of the drop in homicides and suicides was caused specifically by the gun buyback program and other legal changes. Australia’s gun deaths, for one, were already declining before the law passed. But researchers David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis argue that the gun buyback program very likely played a role: “First, the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts

In the meantime,why don't you give us an example of a societal issue that negatively affects US Society,but is not a factor elsewhere in countries like UK,Canada,Germany,Netherlands etc...I'm not sure I'm ready to call for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment,but people have to at least be honest enough to acknowledge the MAJOR ISSUE at play when discussing what distinguishes the US from the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to deaths from firearms...
Click to expand...
Where is your outrage for the opiate crisis that kills 147 people daily?
 
Bruce1 said:
Where are his parents? Even today how many parents would allow a kid to identify with this kind of hate? There just isn’t enough discipline and moral direction today.
Click to expand...
Apparently you don’t pay much attention to the folks at Trump rallies and their signs,chants, and overall demeanor towards others....all cheered on by your boy Donnie the crook. Your hero leads the charge with no morals and hate, good god you have no shame with your level of hypocrisy and doublespeak.
 
cosmickid said:
I'm sure you believe what you type,but (no offense) it's a load of crap.You can't name one societal issue or example of "moral decay" that is UNIQUE to the US.Every single issue you'd try to name is just as prevalent in the rest of the industrialized world except for ONE.And the evidence does suggest that despite your self-serving claims to the contrary,removing guns DOES result in fewer gun suicides and homicides...

"2) The problem is guns, not mental illness
Supporters of gun rights look at America’s high levels of gun violence and argue that guns are not the problem. They point to other issues, from violence in video games and movies to the supposed breakdown of the traditional family.

Most recently, they’ve blamed mental health issues for mass shootings. This is the only policy issue that Trump mentioned in his first speech following the Florida shooting.

But as far as homicides go, people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence. And Michael Stone, a psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of mass shooters, wrote in a 2015 analysis that only 52 out of the 235 killers in the database, or about 22 percent, had mental illnesses. “The mentally ill should not bear the burden of being regarded as the ‘chief’ perpetrators of mass murder,” he concluded. Other research has backed this up.

More broadly, America does not have a monopoly on mental illness. That’s not to say more access to mental health care wouldn’t help; it could, for example, be effective for reducing the number of gun suicides. But mental health issues aren’t what make the US stand out in terms of gun violence.

The problem that’s unique to the US, instead, is guns — and America’s abundance of them."

And to your claim that gun control doesn't work-let's look at Australia.Not just the buyback itself,but what the stats have subsequently shown...

"In 1996, a 28-year-old man walked into a cafe in Port Arthur, Australia, ate lunch, pulled a semiautomatic rifle out of his bag, and opened fire on the crowd, killing 35 people and wounding 23 more. It was the worst mass shooting in Australia’s history.

Australian lawmakers responded with legislation that, among other provisions, banned certain types of firearms, such as automatic and semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. The Australian government confiscated 650,000 of these guns through a mandatory buyback program, in which it purchased firearms from gun owners. It established a registry of all guns owned in the country and required a permit for all new firearm purchases. (This is much further than bills typically proposed in the US, which almost never make a serious attempt to immediatelyreduce the number of guns in the country.)

Australia’s firearm homicide rate dropped by about 42 percent in the seven years after the law passed, and its firearm suicide rate fell by 57 percent, according to a review of the evidenceby Harvard researchers.

It’s difficult to know for sure how much of the drop in homicides and suicides was caused specifically by the gun buyback program and other legal changes. Australia’s gun deaths, for one, were already declining before the law passed. But researchers David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis argue that the gun buyback program very likely played a role: “First, the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts

In the meantime,why don't you give us an example of a societal issue that negatively affects US Society,but is not a factor elsewhere in countries like UK,Canada,Germany,Netherlands etc...I'm not sure I'm ready to call for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment,but people have to at least be honest enough to acknowledge the MAJOR ISSUE at play when discussing what distinguishes the US from the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to deaths from firearms...
Click to expand...

Sorry mate, but i'm not sure its that simple. Mass shootings (hell firearm deaths in general, both homicide and suicide) in Australia were a rare occurrence before 1996 and already abnormally low. just as they were since have been since. Simply put, the sample size was abnormally small to begin with and too small to assume a cause and affect (largest number of gun homicides in any given year from 96 to present was 98, and number that has been eclipsed numerous times by other means ie: other weapons and no weapon...even knife attacks since then have come close to matching that number). Other than your singular example, the 2nd and 3rd largest mass shootings in Australia were rival MC gangs going at it. Furthermore, incidents of mass homicide by any means don't seem to have dropped much, just the means in which they do it (trading guns for arson, vehicles, knives and other means).

Just a few links from a quick google search to temper the rose colored glasses a bit:

https://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-australias-declining-homicide-rates-79654

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

https://mises.org/power-market/why-gun-control-doesnt-explain-australias-low-homicide-rates
 
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Lucy01 said:
Where is your outrage for the opiate crisis that kills 147 people daily?
Click to expand...

What about motor vehicles? Last time I checked we're losing 40,000 people a year to motor vehicle crashes (most of which are avoidable). Most of that number is due to someone's negligence.

I don't see any groups marching to ban the automobile...

I see this (school shootings issue) as both a mental health crisis and a lack of parental oversight and discipline crisis...

Whatever it is, it will happen again because kids copy what other kids do...

Strengthening school security is the only way to slow it down.
 
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All4You said:
Sorry mate, but mass shootings (hell firearm deaths in general, both homicide and suicide) in Australia were a rare occurrence before 1996 and already abnormally low. just as they were since have been since. Simply put, the sample size was abnormally small to begin with and too small to assume a cause and affect (largest number of gun homicides in any given year from 96 to present was 98, and number that has been eclipsed numerous times by other means ie: other weapons and no weapon...even knife attacks since then have come close to matching that number). Other than your singular example, the 2nd and 3rd largest mass shootings in Australia were rival MC gangs going at it. Furthermore, incidents of mass homicide by any means don't seem to have dropped much, just the means in which they do it (trading guns for arson, vehicles, knives and other means).

Just a few links from a quick google search to temper the rose colored glasses a bit:

https://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-australias-declining-homicide-rates-79654

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

https://mises.org/power-market/why-gun-control-doesnt-explain-australias-low-homicide-rates
Click to expand...
Links only count if they are posted by “ Rockfish “
 
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cosmickid said:
I'm sure you believe what you type,but (no offense) it's a load of crap.You can't name one societal issue or example of "moral decay" that is UNIQUE to the US.Every single issue you'd try to name is just as prevalent in the rest of the industrialized world except for ONE.And the evidence does suggest that despite your self-serving claims to the contrary,removing guns DOES result in fewer gun suicides and homicides...

"2) The problem is guns, not mental illness
Supporters of gun rights look at America’s high levels of gun violence and argue that guns are not the problem. They point to other issues, from violence in video games and movies to the supposed breakdown of the traditional family.

Most recently, they’ve blamed mental health issues for mass shootings. This is the only policy issue that Trump mentioned in his first speech following the Florida shooting.

But as far as homicides go, people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence. And Michael Stone, a psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of mass shooters, wrote in a 2015 analysis that only 52 out of the 235 killers in the database, or about 22 percent, had mental illnesses. “The mentally ill should not bear the burden of being regarded as the ‘chief’ perpetrators of mass murder,” he concluded. Other research has backed this up.

More broadly, America does not have a monopoly on mental illness. That’s not to say more access to mental health care wouldn’t help; it could, for example, be effective for reducing the number of gun suicides. But mental health issues aren’t what make the US stand out in terms of gun violence.

The problem that’s unique to the US, instead, is guns — and America’s abundance of them."

And to your claim that gun control doesn't work-let's look at Australia.Not just the buyback itself,but what the stats have subsequently shown...

"In 1996, a 28-year-old man walked into a cafe in Port Arthur, Australia, ate lunch, pulled a semiautomatic rifle out of his bag, and opened fire on the crowd, killing 35 people and wounding 23 more. It was the worst mass shooting in Australia’s history.

Australian lawmakers responded with legislation that, among other provisions, banned certain types of firearms, such as automatic and semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. The Australian government confiscated 650,000 of these guns through a mandatory buyback program, in which it purchased firearms from gun owners. It established a registry of all guns owned in the country and required a permit for all new firearm purchases. (This is much further than bills typically proposed in the US, which almost never make a serious attempt to immediatelyreduce the number of guns in the country.)

Australia’s firearm homicide rate dropped by about 42 percent in the seven years after the law passed, and its firearm suicide rate fell by 57 percent, according to a review of the evidenceby Harvard researchers.

It’s difficult to know for sure how much of the drop in homicides and suicides was caused specifically by the gun buyback program and other legal changes. Australia’s gun deaths, for one, were already declining before the law passed. But researchers David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis argue that the gun buyback program very likely played a role: “First, the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts

In the meantime,why don't you give us an example of a societal issue that negatively affects US Society,but is not a factor elsewhere in countries like UK,Canada,Germany,Netherlands etc...I'm not sure I'm ready to call for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment,but people have to at least be honest enough to acknowledge the MAJOR ISSUE at play when discussing what distinguishes the US from the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to deaths from firearms...
Click to expand...

For one I’m not the rest of the world. We do things a little differently here. Because we do things differently also makes us a place a lot of people want to be. We have many rights in this country others don’t have. One of those happens to be a right to bear arms. Some believe that ensures other rights remain in tact. Some of our older German immigrants understand this.

I’ll take some time and read your post later .... a discussion usually is easier when you don’t come out and call people’s opinion crap. Unless you guys get ahold of your emotions this will never be something that will be agreed upon.
 
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cosmickid said:
But as far as homicides go, people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence. And Michael Stone, a psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of mass shooters, wrote in a 2015 analysis that only 52 out of the 235 killers in the database, or about 22 percent, had mental illnesses. “The mentally ill should not bear the burden of being regarded as the ‘chief’ perpetrators of mass murder,” he concluded. Other research has backed this up.
Click to expand...

Anyone that doesn't include someone that commits that type of act is by definition mentally ill. Shame on academics for trying to label them as anything but.
 
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37Hoosier said:
Apparently you don’t pay much attention to the folks at Trump rallies and their signs,chants, and overall demeanor towards others....all cheered on by your boy Donnie the crook. Your hero leads the charge with no morals and hate, good god you have no shame with your level of hypocrisy and doublespeak.
Click to expand...

Give me a break! The break down of the family started a long long time ago. We are very polarized on this and most issues today. Guns don’t kill people any more than alcohol yet some people want to ban guns. We tried to ban alcohol and that didn’t work. Banning guns in our country is not the answer. Regulating guns needs to be done. Investing in the family unit needs to be done, securing our schools needs to be done....and that is just the beginning. We need to put discipline back into the family and the schools. No! I don’t mean physical abuse, I mean discipline. I have a great grand son who is being raised right. His mom is giving him attention constantly, Grandmother is too. So are Aunts, Uncles, and Great Grand Parents. It takes a lot of time. Many parents today simply don’t want to give kids that kind of priority. They would rather be texting, surfing,etc.
 
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[QUOTE="Hoosier_Hack, post: 2407717, member: 10068 We have many rights in this country others don’t have. One of those happens to be a right to bear arms. Some believe that ensures other rights remain in tact. Some of our older German immigrants understand this.


Are you actually insinuating that a 40 year old Jewish family man with a couple of kids could have protected his family from the Gestapo or SS if only he had a hand gun???
 
DCDAVID said:
[QUOTE="Hoosier_Hack, post: 2407717, member: 10068 We have many rights in this country others don’t have. One of those happens to be a right to bear arms. Some believe that ensures other rights remain in tact. Some of our older German immigrants understand this.


Are you actually insinuating that a 40 year old Jewish family man with a couple of kids could have protected his family from the Gestapo or SS if only he had a hand gun???
Click to expand...
David David David I don’t know what to think of you. If all of the 40 year old Jewish men were armed, now THAT would have been a different story ;)
 
Lucy01 said:
David David David I don’t know what to think of you. If all of the 40 year old Jewish men were armed, now THAT would have been a different story ;)
Click to expand...
Lucy01 said:
David David David I don’t know what to think of you. If all of the 40 year old Jewish men were armed, now THAT would have been a different story ;)
Click to expand...

Your response would be funny if it was not so sad.
 
Hoosier_Hack said:
For one I’m not the rest of the world. We do things a little differently here. Because we do things differently also makes us a place a lot of people want to be. We have many rights in this country others don’t have. One of those happens to be a right to bear arms. Some believe that ensures other rights remain in tact. Some of our older German immigrants understand this.

I’ll take some time and read your post later .... a discussion usually is easier when you don’t come out and call people’s opinion crap. Unless you guys get ahold of your emotions this will never be something that will be agreed upon.
Click to expand...
You have peaked my interest. Outside of the right to bear arms (which most other countries have, albeit with far more regulations) what rightsdo Americans enjoy that other in places like Europe don't?
 
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Hoosier_Hack said:
For one I’m not the rest of the world. We do things a little differently here. Because we do things differently also makes us a place a lot of people want to be. We have many rights in this country others don’t have. One of those happens to be a right to bear arms. Some believe that ensures other rights remain in tact. Some of our older German immigrants understand this.

I’ll take some time and read your post later .... a discussion usually is easier when you don’t come out and call people’s opinion crap. Unless you guys get ahold of your emotions this will never be something that will be agreed upon.
Click to expand...

Congrats for missing the point.And evidently you also missed my final paragraph,since it specifically dealt with the 2nd Amendment...Again-

"In the meantime,why don't you give us an example of a societal issue that negatively affects US Society,but is not a factor elsewhere in countries like UK,Canada,
Germany,Netherlands etc...I'm not sure I'm ready to call for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment,but people have to at least be honest enough to acknowledge the MAJOR ISSUE at play when discussing what distinguishes the US from the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to deaths from firearms"...

In the meantime,this is what you originally posted that I characterized as crap...
I apologize for being so crass-perhaps I should have just stuck with simplistic and inaccurate?

"The issue to address is the youngsters who are turning to this.... well.... it’s certainly a moral decay. What has caused it over the years? I think our society has become more liberal than it was 50 years ago... has it not? Are we not more of a victim society today? Because it is everyone else’s fault for my troubles I’m going to lash out at them ....

This is a problem everyone is being affected by. Removing guns doesn’t make the reasons it is happening go away."

The reality is you are bending over backwards here to keep from admitting the truth.It isn't "moral decay" or liberalism,or atheism,or drugs,or any number of societal issues that conservatives love to rail about that distinguish kids in the US from their counterparts anywhere else in the industrialized world.Many of those factors you'd list are FAR MORE PREVALENT in places like the Netherlands,Germany and thruout Scandinavia than they are in the US...

Disaffected youth is a worldwide phenomenon-mass murders in schools is a unique feature of American culture.Widespread access to guns is also a unique feature of American culture.That is THE CORRELATION that you're doing your best to ignore,but it's ultimately the reality that we as a society are going to have to come to grips with.
 
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Lucy01 said:
More fake news from you, Just what I would expect, if his dad belonged to the NRA prove it.
Click to expand...

Hmm,I'm guessing you chose to ignore the word "guessing"? I really was just guessing,based on him owning multiple guns and living in Texas...

But I decided to call your bluff,and low and behold...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rs-father-Greek-immigrant-NRA-enthusiast.html

Here is a screen copy from Papa's facebook page.No doubt you share some of his likes...

4C69C53700000578-0-image-a-20_1526685095568.jpg


"Antonios Pagourtzis' Facebook page (above) showed he liked NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch as well as Fox News"

So I'll amend my "guess" of NRA member to NRA Enthusiast,as well as Fox Fan.Can't imagine there are many folks who like both Fox and Dana who are not NRA enthusiasts.Unless of course he's just a dirty old man,and "likes" chicks who brag about their "piece"...

As for Junior,he is certainly a "gun enthusiast",based on his facebook likes...

"Pagourtzis followed multiple gun-related accounts, including 'sickguns,' 'gunspictures', and several others called Guns Fanatics, Guns Lovers and Guns Glory."
 
Zizkov said:
You have peaked my interest. Outside of the right to bear arms (which most other countries have, albeit with far more regulations) what rightsdo Americans enjoy that other in places like Europe don't?
Click to expand...
Pssst..... there are a lot of places in the world other than Europe......
 
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cosmickid said:
Congrats for missing the point.And evidently you also missed my final paragraph,since it specifically dealt with the 2nd Amendment...Again-

"In the meantime,why don't you give us an example of a societal issue that negatively affects US Society,but is not a factor elsewhere in countries like UK,Canada,
Germany,Netherlands etc...I'm not sure I'm ready to call for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment,but people have to at least be honest enough to acknowledge the MAJOR ISSUE at play when discussing what distinguishes the US from the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to deaths from firearms"...

In the meantime,this is what you originally posted that I characterized as crap...
I apologize for being so crass-perhaps I should have just stuck with simplistic and inaccurate?

"The issue to address is the youngsters who are turning to this.... well.... it’s certainly a moral decay. What has caused it over the years? I think our society has become more liberal than it was 50 years ago... has it not? Are we not more of a victim society today? Because it is everyone else’s fault for my troubles I’m going to lash out at them ....

This is a problem everyone is being affected by. Removing guns doesn’t make the reasons it is happening go away."

The reality is you are bending over backwards here to keep from admitting the truth.It isn't "moral decay" or liberalism,or atheism,or drugs,or any number of societal issues that conservatives love to rail about that distinguish kids in the US from their counterparts anywhere else in the industrialized world.Many of those factors you'd list are FAR MORE PREVALENT in places like the Netherlands,Germany and thruout Scandinavia than they are in the US...

Disaffected youth is a worldwide phenomenon-mass murders in schools is a unique feature of American culture.Widespread access to guns is also a unique feature of American culture.That is THE CORRELATION that you're doing your best to ignore,but it's ultimately the reality that we as a society are going to have to come to grips with.
Click to expand...
Your standard reply to anyone who disagrees with you, You are missing my point, I didn’t miss your points, I don’t ever agree with anything you have to say.
 
Lucy01 said:
Your standard reply to anyone who disagrees with you, You are missing my point, I didn’t miss your points, I don’t ever agree with anything you have to say.
Click to expand...

Except I was responding to Hack,and explaining why I responded to what HE posted in the manner I did.YOU were NOT a part of that conversation.

But I did eat your lunch over the NRA issue.No doubt you'll continue to IGNORE that...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rs-father-Greek-immigrant-NRA-enthusiast.html
 
Bruce1 said:
Give me a break! The break down of the family started a long long time ago. We are very polarized on this and most issues today. Guns don’t kill people any more than alcohol yet some people want to ban guns. We tried to ban alcohol and that didn’t work. Banning guns in our country is not the answer. Regulating guns needs to be done. Investing in the family unit needs to be done, securing our schools needs to be done....and that is just the beginning. We need to put discipline back into the family and the schools. No! I don’t mean physical abuse, I mean discipline. I have a great grand son who is being raised right. His mom is giving him attention constantly, Grandmother is too. So are Aunts, Uncles, and Great Grand Parents. It takes a lot of time. Many parents today simply don’t want to give kids that kind of priority. They would rather be texting, surfing,etc.
Click to expand...
Hey, Bruce, don't look now, but somebody's on your LAWN!!!
 
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