Another piece on CMW's tenure...
- Thread starter kkott
- Start date
Great article.
The author states;
“Yes, he's been better than Archie Miller was at Indiana, but that's not an impressive feat.”
And that is the one thing that Woodson can lean into. But is it true? It may be, but it’s not a fact. One can logically argue that the program:
A). Has not improved
B) is in worse shape now than when he took over.
I think we need a program purge. We’ve really only had that once, when Crean took over. I’m not sure fans would have the patience to build things up as a program in a slower manner, but IMHO it’s the only thing that can save this program. A foundation has to be laid, a culture established, and that can never occur with a revolving door of mercenary players.
JMO
The author states;
“Yes, he's been better than Archie Miller was at Indiana, but that's not an impressive feat.”
And that is the one thing that Woodson can lean into. But is it true? It may be, but it’s not a fact. One can logically argue that the program:
A). Has not improved
B) is in worse shape now than when he took over.
I think we need a program purge. We’ve really only had that once, when Crean took over. I’m not sure fans would have the patience to build things up as a program in a slower manner, but IMHO it’s the only thing that can save this program. A foundation has to be laid, a culture established, and that can never occur with a revolving door of mercenary players.
JMO
Just fire his ass TODAY and quit expecting miracles!!
I just don't think you can expect to restart a program and then retain enough talented players long enough to get to the peak. Prior to NIL, I 100% agree that was the best method. In todays game, it's almost impossible to maintain a program for an extended period of time, in that manner.
Everyone gives PU as an example but NIL has only been a few years. They have had a NPOY who doesn't fit the NBA mold so he kept coming back. Without Edey, that team is not that good and when you're not that good, things start to fall apart. Coaches shift lineups, players get unhappy with playing time and that house of cards will quickly fall apart. Next year is the first real post-NIL season PU will have without a program pillar like Edey and I think you will see this old school ideology isn't likely to work for many teams.
You need to bring in veteran talent, that's actually talented. Everyone was all over Sparks and Walker. Those are not the level of guys you need to get. The talent of Ware and Mbagko weren't the reason Indiana was no good. Aside from the obvious lack of a good coach/system, they lacked a guard who could create his own shot, create shots for his teammates and most importantly, a guard who can just make a shot.
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We've reached an odd point where 90-95 percent of the fan base and media are completely done with Woodson. Yet he's still coaching.
PU has a highly rated class coming in next year. Not sure they'll ever get over the march hump so to speak but Painter has been on quite a streak with big ten championship caliper teams for quite a while.
You bring up some good points and perhaps you are right.
It will be interesting to see PU post Edey. Perhaps they fall apart, perhaps not.
As to IU, and I think you get what I was saying, I was suggesting a couple of lean years to develop a foundation, and culture correction. Hopefully after 2-3 yrs we’d have some leadership in place that could help us take the next step (which would require more talent, which invariably would mean some short term players).
in the end, you may be right. But, it doesn’t seem that what we are doing is working, so I say rip off the band aide, try to build it correctly from the ground up. Impossible? Perhaps.
in fairness, no one was "all over" Sparks or Walker. When we got commitments from Ware and Mbako, that made both of them instant backups and I think that was fully discussed with both before they came. Sparks wanted to be at IU from what I read and actually has the right mindset I believe that we need from most on our roster: I'm here to be a part of IU. We know we have that in TG and AL, but who else fits that bill on this team? We need that to be the dominant mindset, especially of our leaders, not of a few guys. You can say that PU will not be that good without Edey, and I agree, but do you think there not that good is as bad as we are this year? I'll wager you right now it won't be and that Painter will cobble together a competitive team next year without Edey and they'll still make the tournament.
There was nothing wrong with adding Sparks and Walker, but we definitely needed another guard, and I'd have preferred 2 and only taken one of Sparks/Walker. But, I don't think most on here thought we were fine with those 2, or on counting on TG and XJ. I know I thought we needed another guard. I want to be 3 deep (starter, backup and development) at at least 3 spots: PG, Post and wing. And a couple of those players at each level need to be shooters (35%+ from 3 and 80%+ FTs).
First of all, couldn't Edey actually return?
Second, I have read several times on here that PU will go down after XXXX leaves, they will come back to reality.
I swear I have read that the past 8-10 years and yet they still are winning.
As much as I HATE and I mean HATE to say it, it might just come down to Painter being a good coach.
At least during the regular season!!
And I am afraid if they keep knocking on that door they will eventually walk through! DAMN!
I would be money that PU will be top 2 in BIG next year. They return a lot of veteran leadership and have good young talent
Purdue will be a top 25 team next year. Edey has made them top 3, Painter has built something that is sustainable, next year will be awful at IU
They have had some luck, but Painter has built several good teams over the past 18 or so years — all the way back to that Moore, Hummel, and Johnson team. The last ten years for them have been very good. It stinks, but facts are facts. He has a repeatable system and culture that works.
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Yes, I am almost positive Edey still has his covid year. I don't think he is with all the hoopla and jersey retirement, but he could return. Secondly, Painter is a damn good coach, period. If you haven't accepted it by now, you probably never will, but he's good.
The author is 100% correct about the need for a change in playing style and philosophy. But given that there is zero acknowledgement from Woodson that change is needed - I’ll believe it when I see it. Certainly, there will be big roster changes. But if Woodson doesn’t get some early portal wins to create momentum, this could go further downhill fast. Also, if we don’t see an asst or two fired within a couple of weeks, then it seems that Woodson just plans to run it back.
If you don't listen to Assembly Call, imo, you should. They do a good job of commenting on things, without being overly negative. They did a show on their opinions of CMW's tenure which is largely what's in the article. I think their feeling is, CMW is back so let's not discuss replacements yet and comment on what's factual. Ryan is probably the most critical of CMW and his approach.
They also have a deeper dive show on strategy/tactics/coaching principles called Xs and Joes, and a show focused on the women's team: Doin' the Work. All are good, imo.
The thing about Purdue is I don't give a **** what they do. Really doesn't change the shit show we have become. And why retain a coach that outside of his family possibly, that no believes has any chance to turn it around is amazing to me.
This happens everywhere Woodson is coaching.
Edey could but already announced this is it for him. His stock will never be higher than it is now.
Agree. I haven’t watched one Purdue game in years or decades, I don’t really know their roster, and I don’t care. They do remind us what’s possible and what we aren’t doing, which is tough but oh well.
It’s pretty wild the IUBB decision makers have prioritized Woody ahead of the actual program.
They know the Woody experiment is going poorly. He isn’t a top-50 coach (no one else would hire him), and he’s not the long-term solution just given his age, but they seem to want to give him time to try and go out on a high and/or figure out how to be good in college hoops.
But IUBB can’t have a non-long term coach trying to figure it out in year 4. Way too risky and a waste of valuable player and fan time (and probably resources).
We’ll see if Woody can pull off a big turnaround.
Zero recruits for the next class. Breathtaking really.
That is a resounding rejection of Woodson and his philosophies.
Even with the NIL money that we have...zero takers.
That is a resounding rejection of Woodson and his philosophies.
Even with the NIL money that we have...zero takers.
I do think Painter is a good coach and sooner or later they will win it all. Joe Rose (HC) made the final four with a center named J. B.Caroll. Maybe before Keady? Better double check the year.
The NCAA seems to be Painter’s albatross. In Harbaughs first few years at UMich he was maybe 0-4 against Ohio State and about the same in their bowl games. Ultimately (and maybe illegally) he conquered that.
And here we are. I don’t think anyone except Mike Woodson (or someone else working for IU) would consider that article overly negative. Think about that.
I don't mean that that article is overly negative, I mean that they don't get caught in the abyss if habitual complaining about something that isn't changing this year. They've pretty much all (they have a rotating group of co-hosts, but the core is Jerrod, Ryan, Coach Tonsoni and Andy Bottoms) and I think they pretty much all agree that we'd be better off moving on from CMW, but since that's not happening this year they focus on changes that might be more realistic, as in roster and approach. Ryan is probably the most critical but I think all 4 probably agree the CMW experiment has yielded the results it's probably going to.
I'm not PU football has been better..
But I do believe IU is on equal footing in the next couple yr..
Might go so far as to say we'll be a tad better..
I feel there are several really damning issues about Woodson.
1. Zero incoming recruits. Has that ever happened?
2. To me there is an arrogance. For example, refusal to answer questions about his job (all coaches get that) and a no show for radio shows.
3. The team just doesn’t seem happy. Since I am not on the inside, and this is a judgement call, I could be wrong. But I watch the ladies and it just seems different.
4. Lack of discipline. I know whith X’s speeding arrest the forum was split with many feeling it was not a big deal and some the opposite. I felt the message sent with the absence of cause and effect would be a problem. Maybe it allowed X’s action resulting in a game ejection and university embarrassment, maybe not.
I have no inside facts and have never played nor coached college basketball, just an opinion as a fan who is no longer donating and no longer wearing Indiana T shirts with the pride I once had.
I think you missed my point.
The article wasn’t overly negative, I don’t hear anyone complaining that it was.
And, the article had nothing positive to say about the current state of things. The fact that a lengthy article could say nothing positive about the program, yet it isn’t overly negative speaks volumes. It’s an all out dumpster 🔥.
When we can't shoot from outside, we also can't do the other two things Woodson likes to do, because the other team won't let us.
Those two things are (1) feed the post and score from three feet away, and (2) have ballhandlers drive to the basket and score from three feet away. For example, Nebraska knew we couldn't shoot, so they ignored three-point defense, packed the lane and so kept Reneau and Ware from positioning for their inside shots. Packing the lane also meant that Johnson and Mbako could not drive to the basket because the defenders were already there. Our other driver (Galloway) was not in the game.
I was glad to see Mbako shoot a few midrange jumpers in the last few games, but he didn't do this often enough. You may recall how good Hood-Schifino was last year at shooting midrange jumpers. This is an excellent but nearly forgotten way to score (and break zone defenses) in this era of highlight dunks. Ironically, one thing Woodson himself was known for in his college days was ....... midrange jumpers. Johnson, Leal, Mbako and Cupp can all shoot midrange jumpers but this never seemed a part of our offense. Maybe Woodson just forgot.
well, my suspicion is that you'd hear a very different and more negative view if you were discussing over a beer with any of the AC hosts, vs on air or in print. Not sure I'm still addressing the point you're trying to make which I think is just that it's gotten so bad that fans are just accepting it. I'm not sure that's the case but there really isn't anything fans can do short of not showing up, which i think is starting to happen. I'd guess attendance was down some from last year, and will drop more next year if results aren't better.
and, ironically, the thing Ryan Phillips probably complains about the most are mid-range jumpers. Current anayltics says the most "efficient" shots are at the rim or 3 ptrs. My whole argument was if you're a bad 3 pt shooting team, it probably doesn't make sense to take more of them. If we're a good shooting team, I'm all for it.
Pitino took a whole new roster at st johns. no 5 stars, took a while but at the end of the season had them playing very well. lost 95-90 to UConn in the big east tournament and had a real shot to beat them. might be the closest game UConn plays the rest of the way based on last year.
Woodson took a fairly experienced roster by today's standards. with 3, 5 stars, and at the end of the Nebraska game I'm not sure they were as good as they were after the Army game.
Point being the guy can't coach. I was convinced after last year. why we are going to let it totally implode next season is beyond me.
It's not about having a highly rated class. The issue is building a foundation and maintaining it. Having a pilar like Edey who isn't compatible for the NBA yet dominant in college, has allowed Purdue to maintain a high level of success. You used that he has had those teams for "quite awhile" but as I stated, that was viable prior to NIL. That process of building a foundation of young talent that you could cultivate over 3-4 years was the way Indiana should've gone in the past. I don't, however, think that process is viable in todays game. Next season, when PU loses that pilar and needs to rely heavily on young talent or simply inefficient talent, I think you will start to understand.
Disagree, pi is going to have 3/5 starters back along with Colvin, Furst, Heide and the incoming class. He has built a roster to last. They may not be a 1 seed but it’s foolish to think they won’t be top of BIG again.
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The group of teams that compete for conference championships annually, and then go on to compete for Natty's, has remained fairly consistent. There are a couple teams that have dipped a little the last few years, Villanova comes to mind. But UConn, North Carolina, Duke, Purdue, Wisconsin, Kansas, Houston, Kentucky, Alabama, Gonzaga, Arizona... they all seem to be rolling along just fine before and since NIL/Portal dynamics kicked in.
Its absurd that IU isn't on that list. And I only put Purdue and Wisky on the list because they've remained constant at the top of the conference.
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