American Embassy Iraq

[sglowrider]

Just part of the grand scheme I bet. Intended unintended consequences.

I bet the idea of the enemy of an enemy is a friend is just about to kick in..... just... about NOW!

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

diplomatic pressure on the Taliban

I don't think that was really possible.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan could have achieved a better outcome at a much lower cost

Huh? Saudi is responsible for the rise of Wahhabism and the Pakistanis literally harbored Bin Laden and other key members of terrorist organizations.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

A combination of military and diplomatic pressure on the Taliban in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan could have achieved a better outcome at a much lower cost. Particularly if we hadn't effed that up with the Iraq war.

Far be it from me to agree with @JamieDimonsBalls, but this seems optimistic at best and naive at worst.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Politics at one time in our history ended at the nation's shore. This meant when it came to foreign policy, both parties were pretty much in agreement. In addition the executive branch consulted with committees of Congress such as the Senate Foreign Relations Committee which tended to be bipartisan.

These days presidents come into office complaining about the foreign policies of their predecessors especially if the previous president was from a different party. Bipartisan foreign policy then goes out the window. Consistency and precedence from one administration to the next is replaced by each new president bent on reinventing the wheel. Politically appointed leaders by a new president of defense, state, and security find themselves confronted by bureaucrats with a conflicting perspective.

On top of this, the citizens tend to listen to politicians of their own party. When a new president bashes the former president of another party the partisans of each party take sides either for or against the new president.

Please note I am not saying the foreign policies of a more bipartisan (we are in this together) past were without mistakes. All I am saying is there was a time when the country left the huddle with all on the team believing the called play was the right play.

That’s not our fault Hoot. I blame the rest of the world. Our enemies are now too ambiguous. Used to be our enemies were clear and awful. Uniting against them was easy. It’s all different now. China is our enemy—maybe. Yet the device I’m typing this on is supplied by China. If the NBA can’t figure out what it’s China policy should be, how are we supposed to figure it out? The Middle East? Is our enemy a country? A religion? A despot? A free agent killer? Jewish militancy? Some even blame climate change for Middle East chaos. Russia? 10 years ago, this was our official policy.

But then reset got confused with collusion.

We need a mutually agreeable enemy!

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Far be it from me to agree with @JamieDimonsBalls, but this seems optimistic at best and naive at worst.

 

[twenty02]

View embedded media

So if that’s true, Trump ordered an airstrike on a foreign diplomat engaged in peace talks... not a good look. Saudi Arabia might have double-crossed Iraq & Iran by giving us intel on Suleimani‘s arrival?

The current PM of Iraq is an Iranian puppet that was forced to resign due to anti- Iranian protests in Iraq just last month. Whomever wrote that tweet is a brain dead idiot referring to Sadr.....Sadr is an anti- American Shia militia leader.... but he's also very Iraqi nationalist and is very anti- Iranian.... openly critical of their influence in Iraq.

This is what happens when people with no clue of the complexities in play attempt to pop off for political reasons with no clue of what they are talking about. Iraq had been holding major anti- Iranian protests for the months leading up to this..... complaints centered around the overt Iranian influence in Iraqi politics.... to the point it forced the Iranian puppet PM (who is shockingly, "fuming") to step down.



Describing Suleimani as a peace talking diplomat is perhaps the most absurd thing I've ever read. Was that supposed to be sarcasm?

 

[sglowrider]

The current PM of Iraq is an Iranian puppet that was forced to resign due to anti- Iranian protests in Iraq just last month. Whomever wrote that tweet is a brain dead idiot referring to Sadr.....Sadr is an anti- American Shia militia leader.... but he's also very Iraqi nationalist and is very anti- Iran.

This is what happens when people with no clue of the complexities in play attempt to pop off for political reasons with no clue of what they are talking about.

Describing Suleimani as a peace talking diplomat is perhaps the most absurd thing I've ever read. Was that supposed to be sarcasm?

Right. And assassinating the 2nd/3rd most powerful official will not have any repercussions. QS ain't a good guy, but Americans have sponsored many militias and still do.

And as Iike I said before, one man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter. Do you think that the US is considered the sponsors of only good militias? Its not a binary game of we are the good guys or pretending to be so when you know there have been crimes committed against the local inhabitants in ever war Americans have been involved in (eg My Lai to Itaq) -- never mind the legality of the war in Iraq.

If folks here cant see that things can actually be perceived differently outside your own box, then you need to get out more often.

You don't think that the Bush Invasion has no repercussions and loss of credibility in the rest of the world? And you think no Iraqis suffered as a result of the actions of the POTUS? If anything Iraqis have been generous toward the actions of the US. The pretence of democracy but really the intentions were always more subversive.

My point is nobody's hands are clean in any of these conflicts including Americans. To pretend otherwise is being deluded.

Then now this idiot tells the world that its a defensive measure and that any reaction by the Iranians will have major, bigly repercussions? Nobody believes the crap coming out this cretin's mouth, inside the States or outside.

He just openly bragged about assassinating a state official. Three things:

1) It forces the other side to react. And no backchannel de-escalation.
2) It now tells the world that the US is willing to eliminate state officials without any due process.
3) Why cant they do the same thing then? Why not eliminate Bush since he is a war criminal in many people eyes -- no need for due process now that there is a precedence.

All this just to re-direct from his Impeachment dilemma.

Twenty -- the reality of life is that sometimes its easier to see things from afar and not get caught up with the daily fog.

 

[toastedbread]

anti- Iranian protests in Iraq just last month.

Which is another reason this assassination was completely retarded. We have shown a spotlight on our ass for all the wrong reasons. The monkey is now firmly on our backs. You don't take this act without considering the entirety of the situation. Then we were scrambling like morons today to prevent this parliamentary vote. Then Trump threatens Iraq. There is no cohesive strategy whatsoever. It's pure insanity.

 

[twenty02]

Right. And assassinating the 2nd/3rd most powerful official will not have any repercussions. QS ain't a good guy, but Americans have sponsored many militias and still do.

And as Iike I said before, one man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter. Do you think that the US is considered the sponsors of only good militias? Its not a binary game of we are the good guys or pretending to be so when you know there have been crimes committed against the local inhabitants in ever war Americans have been involved in (eg My Lai to Itaq) -- never mind the legality of the war in Iraq.

If folks here cant see that things can actually be perceived differently outside your own box, then you need to get out more often.

You don't think that the Bush Invasion has no repercussions and loss of credibility in the rest of the world? And you think no Iraqis suffered as a result of the actions of the POTUS? If anything Iraqis have been generous toward the actions of the US. The pretence of democracy but really the intentions were always more subversive.

My point is nobody's hands are clean in any of these conflicts including Americans. To pretend otherwise is being deluded.

Then now this idiot tells the world that its a defensive measure and that any reaction by the Iranians will have major, bigly repercussions? Nobody believes the crap coming out this cretin's mouth, inside the States or outside.

He just openly bragged about assassinating a state official. Three things:

1) It forces the other side to react. And no backchannel de-escalation.
2) It now tells the world that the US is willing to eliminate state officials without any due process.
3) Why cant they do the same thing then? Why not eliminate Bush since he is a war criminal in many people eyes -- no need for due process now that there is a precedence.

All this just to re-direct from his Impeachment dilemma.

Twenty -- the reality of life is that sometimes its easier to see things from afar and not get caught up with the daily fog.

It's actually quite clear to me.... we've been fighting proxy wars with Iran for 4 decades. And it's not going to stop..... they've been actively killing Americans in Iraq for 15 years and counting. I don't care if you want to wrap this dude in some shroud of something that he isn't...... but he was an active hands-on, on the ground combatant in an ongoing war that the Iranians continue to push very hard.... even harder in the last couple of years because the economic sanctions have pushed their domestic political situation to a very tenuous situation.

This isn't stuff happening in a vacuum..... serious uprisings opposing the Iranian regime in both Baghdad and throughout Iran in last few months. They start lashing out with violence (tanker attacks in Gulf of Oman, attacks on Saudi oil facility, attacking US bases, finally attacking US embassy).

Trump is probably the most dovish president we've had in the mideast since Carter.... when it comes to actually using any level of force. He hits one piece of shit with a drone everyone loses their mind.

 

[twenty02]

Which is another reason this assassination was completely retarded. We have shown a spotlight on our ass for all the wrong reasons. The monkey is now firmly on our backs. You don't take this act without considering the entirety of the situation. Then we were scrambling like morons today to prevent this parliamentary vote. Then Trump threatens Iraq. There is no cohesive strategy whatsoever. It's pure insanity.

I think you are all tremendously over- estimating the impact of this.... nothing changes. You think Iran and their proxies weren't doing everything in their power to harm US interests in Iraq for the last 15+ years? Half of Iraq was celebrating this.... the Iranian puppets were obviously upset.

 

[toastedbread]

I think you are all tremendously over- estimating the impact of this.... nothing changes. You think Iran and their proxies weren't doing everything in their power to harm US interests in Iraq for the last 15+ years? Half of Iraq was celebrating this.... the Iranian puppets were obviously upset.

I think our officials have the absolutely wrong read about the public square in both Iraq and Iran, perhaps intentionally. I think we are completely ignorant of the culture. The mood in Tehran today is one of anger. The public square is angry. The protesters killed are yesterday's news. I don't blame you for being misinformed about the realities inside of these countries when we are being spoon fed propaganda.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I think our officials have the absolutely wrong read about the public square in both Iraq and Iran, perhaps intentionally. I think we are completely ignorant of the culture. The mood in Tehran today is one of anger. The public square is angry. The protesters killed are yesterday's news. I don't blame you for being misinformed about the realities inside of these countries when we are being spoon fed propaganda.

I would expect that the mood in Tehran is complex, much like it is here on any given issue. Some of them are probably glad to see the murdering bastard splattered all over Baghdad International Airport and some are crying because their murderous bastard and effective weapon got splattered.

One thing I do know for certain is that on this board, you are likely to bring us the viewpoint of the latter. I have friends and family that are still in the military. They, like Ranger, had friends that were directly impacted by Soleimani. Him being gone does nothing to change the Iranian policy (one of a low intensity war for 40 years) against the U.S. What it did do is make it clear to them that this is not going to be a one sided affair anymore, it established a red line (don't **** with our people), and it killed their most effective operative in their fight against us. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

All that being said, I am still interested in getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan. We are throwing bad money after good in that region.

 

[toastedbread]

I would expect that the mood in Tehran is complex, much like it is here on any given issue. Some of them are probably glad to see the murdering bastard splattered all over Baghdad International Airport and some are crying because their murderous bastard and effective weapon got splattered.

One thing I do know for certain is that on this board, you are likely to bring us the viewpoint of the latter. I have friends and family that are still in the military. They, like Ranger, had friends that were directly impacted by Soleimani. Him being gone does nothing to change the Iranian policy (one of a low intensity war for 40 years) against the U.S. What it did do is make it clear to them that this is not going to be a one sided affair anymore, it established a red line (don't **** with our people), and it killed their most effective operative in their fight against us. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

All that being said, I am still interested in getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan. We are throwing bad money after good in that region.

You completely misinterpret my viewpoint. For you see the people I know inside Iran don't give a crap about the regime. Let's call them indifferent at best to slightly negative at worst toward the regime. Their observation is that the public generally is very angry. Yes, some people hated QS, no doubt, but for example you have one group that hates the regime, one group that loves the regime, then another pivot group who is somewhat indifferent to negative on the regime, but just wants to live and put food on the table. That's the group you need, and they are still nationalist and concerned about their safety and well being.

See the difference is that while you are concerned about revenge, I'm concerned about future Americans who needlessly lose their lives. I'm afraid that more Americans lose their lives over this action, while the act itself accomplishes very little to nothing long-term. Somethings are more important than revenge.

If you believe that we should be pulling out, then this was completely unnecessary and dangerous.

 

[twenty02]

I think our officials have the absolutely wrong read about the public square in both Iraq and Iran, perhaps intentionally. I think we are completely ignorant of the culture. The mood in Tehran today is one of anger. The public square is angry. The protesters killed are yesterday's news. I don't blame you for being misinformed about the realities inside of these countries when we are being spoon fed propaganda.

I'm not misinformed when it comes to Iraq, whatsoever, so slow your roll there. The Sunnis and Kurds aren't the least bit angry about this. And why they boycotted the puppet vote yesterday.

 

[Spartans9312]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...als-stunned-by-trump-s-order-on-soleimani-nyt
Pentagon officials were stunned by Trump’s decision....

If the President was presented with options the Pentagon did not believe should be carried out, we need to remove the people who pulled this stunt.
More than likely it's bogus.
The timing seems off to me.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Right. And assassinating the 2nd/3rd most powerful official will not have any repercussions. QS ain't a good guy, but Americans have sponsored many militias and still do.

And as Iike I said before, one man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter. Do you think that the US is considered the sponsors of only good militias? Its not a binary game of we are the good guys or pretending to be so when you know there have been crimes committed against the local inhabitants in ever war Americans have been involved in (eg My Lai to Itaq) -- never mind the legality of the war in Iraq.

If folks here cant see that things can actually be perceived differently outside your own box, then you need to get out more often.

You don't think that the Bush Invasion has no repercussions and loss of credibility in the rest of the world? And you think no Iraqis suffered as a result of the actions of the POTUS? If anything Iraqis have been generous toward the actions of the US. The pretence of democracy but really the intentions were always more subversive.

My point is nobody's hands are clean in any of these conflicts including Americans. To pretend otherwise is being deluded.

Then now this idiot tells the world that its a defensive measure and that any reaction by the Iranians will have major, bigly repercussions? Nobody believes the crap coming out this cretin's mouth, inside the States or outside.

He just openly bragged about assassinating a state official. Three things:

1) It forces the other side to react. And no backchannel de-escalation.
2) It now tells the world that the US is willing to eliminate state officials without any due process.
3) Why cant they do the same thing then? Why not eliminate Bush since he is a war criminal in many people eyes -- no need for due process now that there is a precedence.

All this just to re-direct from his Impeachment dilemma.

Twenty -- the reality of life is that sometimes its easier to see things from afar and not get caught up with the daily fog.

Dude I am entertained by your posting quite frequently but your shtick of “I see it better cuz I don’t live in ‘merica right now is a) absurd, b) insulting, and c) not something a well-travelled and exposed person should say with a straight face.

YES THERE MAY BE REPERCUSSIONS FROM A STATE THAT SPONSORS TERRORISM AND HAS THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS’ BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS.

You don’t need to keep saying it. We got, it we agree.

I hate to take this to Godwin, but imagine if someone would’ve taken out Hitler in 1938 when his intentions became crystal clear and his power base was cemented. Would we have heard “oh but he’s the number 2 in Germany” from a former IU grad living in Argentina?

 

[iu_a_att]

Far be it from me to agree with @JamieDimonsBalls, but this seems optimistic at best and naive at worst.

I missed the part where someone made the argument that the Afghan war produced a net positive. My take is that we could have achieved the few things that we have accomplished. Destroying al Qaeda, killing bin Laden without the invasion of Afghanistan and at much lower cost. My take is that by and large the war in Afghanistan was done to assuage American public anger at 9-11. My radical lefty opinions on the two wars are consistent with the opinions of a majority of the veterans of both those wars.

Apparently military advisers thought the Afghan campaign was dubious all along.

 

[toastedbread]

Dude I am entertained by your posting quite frequently but your shtick of “I see it better cuz I don’t live in ‘merica right now is a) absurd, b) insulting, and c) not something a well-travelled and exposed person should say with a straight face.

YES THERE MAY BE REPERCUSSIONS FROM A STATE THAT SPONSORS TERRORISM AND HAS THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS’ BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS.

You don’t need to keep saying it. We got, it we agree.

I hate to take this to Godwin, but imagine if someone would’ve taken out Hitler in 1938 when his intentions became crystal clear and his power base was cemented. Would we have heard “oh but he’s the number 2 in Germany” from a former IU grad living in Argentina?

His point is a valid one. We ignore all other foreign perspectives and actors under the guise of might is right. We dismiss people like @sglowrider at our own peril. He is as American as any of us. We should value his unique vantage point.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

His point is a valid one. We ignore all other foreign perspectives and actors under the guise of might is right. We dismiss people like @sglowrider at our own peril. He is as American as any of us. We should value his unique vantage point.

Read my post again and tell me where I’m dismissing him. I’m pointing out, correctly, that simply stating “I’m looking outside in” isn’t credibility.

I flew 100k miles each year the last three years and work with international people daily across every continent besides Antarctica.

I’ve lived abroad for 3 years in Europe.

So, toasted, I think I have a pretty ****ing wide perspective. Take your warnings elsewhere.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

And as Iike I said before, one man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter.

If folks here cant see that things can actually be perceived differently outside your own box, then you need to get out more often.

My point is nobody's hands are clean in any of these conflicts including Americans. To pretend otherwise is being deluded.

This is a pretty sorry line of argument sglow. Values and principles allow all of us to make choices. Jew hating Nazis numbered in the millions, they weren't just Hitler. They existed throughout Europe. Those people made choices about what they believe and did. There was no need for us to view the world through the Nazi "box". Intollerance towards others for who they are and what they believe exists today in Iran and throughout the Middle East today largely because of people like Suleimani. We don't need to see the world through his eyes to understand that. The United States makes choices and take actions based upon our beliefs. The playing field is a messy place and not all of what we do is seen as altruistic or helpful. But overall our intentions are better than those of the likes of Suleimani and his surrogates.

The proof is in the pudding. The Iranians, under the leadership of Suleimani created hardship and refugees wherever he showed up. I don't notice people clamoring to get into Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, or other places where Quod Force is active. Those displaced people want to come here. They want to come to Western Europe. They want to go to places where they can believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do without repercussions from gun-toting intolerant militants.

 

[sglowrider]

Dude I am entertained by your posting quite frequently but your shtick of “I see it better cuz I don’t live in ‘merica right now is a) absurd, b) insulting, and c) not something a well-travelled and exposed person should say with a straight face.

YES THERE MAY BE REPERCUSSIONS FROM A STATE THAT SPONSORS TERRORISM AND HAS THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS’ BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS.

You don’t need to keep saying it. We got, it we agree.

I hate to take this to Godwin, but imagine if someone would’ve taken out Hitler in 1938 when his intentions became crystal clear and his power base was cemented. Would we have heard “oh but he’s the number 2 in Germany” from a former IU grad living in Argentina?

That's the difference in having travelled and having lived in foreign lands is a big difference -- embedded ie follow local customs, pay local taxes, mainly local friends etc. There is more balanced perspective in the later -- and less jingoism and chest-beating. There is certainly, less group-think which has always got the country in trouble in the past.

Therefore you will find that those of us who live abroad -- and living amongst the natives tend to see things similarly and in my opinion more balanced as you take into account different views.

If it was insulting, I apologise.

But you need to at least appreciate that those who are in similar positions will see things differently and especially living as minorities, plugged in with multiple races, religion, political prisms and cultures on a daily basis.

That to me is the biggest change in perspective.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

That's the difference in having travelled and having lived in foreign lands is a big difference -- embedded ie follow local customs, pay local taxes, mainly local friends etc. There is more balanced perspective in the later -- and less jingoism and chest-beating. There is certainly, less group-think which has always got the country in trouble in the past.

Therefore you will find that those of us who live abroad -- and living amongst the natives tend to see things similarly and in my opinion more balanced as you take into account different views.

If it was insulting, I apologise.

But you need to at least appreciate that those who are in similar positions will see things differently and especially living as minorities, plugged in with multiple races, religion, political prisms and cultures on a daily basis.

That to me is the biggest change in perspective.

Nobody doubts that living amongst other people provides a different perspective. But having said perspective doesn’t make one any more right or wrong than the inverse. My point is that it isn’t a “credibility” enhancer. It does provide more tools for evaluation and critical thinking, none of which were brought to bear in that post. Instead it was “I see it better from afar” and you’re better than that.

 

[UncleMark]

My wife is Canadian. She's always claimed that she won't take US citizenship as long as the oath requires her to renounce her home country. Our decision to conquer Iraq made that decision that much easier. The election of Trump etched it in stone.

 

[Morrison]

My wife is Canadian. She's always claimed that she won't take US citizenship as long as the oath requires her to renounce her home country. Our decision to conquer Iraq made that decision that much easier. The election of Trump etched it in stone.

So, you’re saying you’re harboring a terrorist, a socialist, or just a foreigner that needs to be deported?

 

[UncleMark]

So, you’re saying you’re harboring a terrorist, a socialist, or just a foreigner that needs to be deported?

I call her my email order bride. Some chicks will do anything for a green card.

 

[Morrison]

I call her my email order bride. Some chicks will do anything for a green card.

Nah, she has good taste. She’s no #melaniatrump.

 

[UncleMark]

Nah, she has good taste. She’s no #melaniatrump.

There sure wasn't any prenup involved.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

ISNA claiming technical failure issue right after take-off, but the timing should make everyone skeptical

 

[DrHoops]

It is highly unlikely that thus was pulled off by Marines, this was a special operations mission that would have been given to either Seals or Delta.

^^^

 

[DrHoops]

These are sick people.

Well... yeah... Our full arsenal of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons makes it technically POSSIBLE to slaughter 82 million Iranians. So what?

 

[DrHoops]

I don't think he can do better. He's lost his edge.

That is such a partisan hack of a post/response. You can do better.

 

[DrHoops]

Yes, and just 10 days ago Iran, China, and Russia held joint military exercises. This will have no good ending. Trump is a danger to global stability.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...nt-naval-drills-in-indian-ocean-idUSKBN1YV0IB

China is a much larger strategic threat to the United States than Iran. But they are also much more powerful and so we are deterred from taking them on militarily. It is that Iran is relatively small that makes it an enemy that we might consider fighting. Strategically Iran would be wise to push forward their nuclear program as quickly as possible don't you think? It would be a very good time for them to partner with Russia too.

 

[DrHoops]

Clearly the "Deep State" is trying push the US into another war in the Middle East. Q-Anon will fill us in later tonight!

View embedded media

Great point by Richard Engel

 

[T.M.P.]

There is no cohesive strategy whatsoever.

Yup .. almost if the people in charge don't have the requisite knowledge needed for diplomacy or foreign relations and ignore the experts who do. Is there any doubt he chose this option as a way to control the news cycle.

 

[twenty02]

My wife is Canadian. She's always claimed that she won't take US citizenship as long as the oath requires her to renounce her home country. Our decision to conquer Iraq made that decision that much easier. The election of Trump etched it in stone.

So you're just that appealing that she came anyway?

Seems dubious....

 

[UncleMark]

So you're just that appealing that she came anyway?

Seems dubious....

Hey, when you're from a poor, backward, third world place like Saskatchewan, trailer park living is top shelf.